Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
No. The CIOS report that dealt with guided missile research is No. XXXII-84. GERMAN HIGH SPEED AERODYNAMIC and GUIDED MISSILE RESEARCH.
A9 Amerika rocket
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I gave you the location of the document I mentioned in my post.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Give me the document, or at least direct link on it. Otherwise it's of zero value. I could say that MNV TREMP 18/1543 BIOS XXIX-216 is named "RESEARCH INTO CAT PURRING IN RELATION TO QUALITY OF MILK", you know.
The V-1 missile was to be used in Pulkzerstörer (formation destroyer) against enemy bomber streams steered by a new DFS radio-command from a Fw 190 pilot.
In 1943 it was proposed to build a television-guided version to compete with the Henschel Hs 293D missile, but in 1945 the Allies electronic technology was so advanced that they could interfere any German radio-control system.
Only those who could be fitted with primitive wire-guidance devices, like the flying bomb Henschel Hs 293 A, the air-to-air missile Rhursthal Kramer X4 or the X7 antitank rocket of the same firm survived. But the results achieved in combat using these systems were not too good; sometimes the cable broke or lacked the necessary length to avoid the effects of the naval AA, with the dangerous disadvantage that the launcher plane was forced to fly on a straight line while guiding the missile.
After the failure of the Messerschmitt Me 328 schnellbomber, the Germans realized they lacked the means to stop the Allied invasion that they expected would take place in the sector of Calais by mid-1944. In May of that year the first Mistel composite-bombers entered service, but they could only be used against static targets because during their final dive they were controlled by an automatic pilot only.
The Axis only possibility was using suicide pilots.
By mid-1943, Hanna Reitsch, who had participated in the testing program of the Messerschmitt Me 328, piloting one of the prototypes and was greatly affected by the bombing of German cities, met with Otto Skorzeny and Erich Lange to support his idea of using a piloted version of the V-1 as a last-ditch weapon.
In August 1942, a group of former glider pilots of the Sturm Abteilung Koch meeting in a Berlin Flying Club had conclude that the Ballistikfrei piloted glider-bombs were the only weapons that could guarantee the German victory. Known unofficially as Reichenberg Commitee, this group of radical ideas that was represented before the Führer by Hanna Reitsch was gaining influence with each defeat of the Wehrmacht in Russia and Africa, with each U-Boat sunk in the Atlantic and with the devastation of Hamburg by Allied bombers.
In November 1943 the S.O. concept was discussed by technicians, scientists and Luftwaffe officers during a secret conference at the Akademie der Luftahrtforschung, under the leadership of Adolf Baeumker.
Nope. Put up or shut up. And you'll need more than some brief reference to "the A-12 was built." You'll need something that and actual reasonable person would consider not just evidence but *good* evidence. Remember, post war intelligence reports said that the Nazis had plans for a "sun gun" when they didn't, or had some idea on how to build practical A-bombs when they didn't.
The Germans were *really* good at blowing sunshine not only up their leaderships asses, but also up the Allies asses. Because that's how you get and keep a job.
The A11 and A12 rockets were never built nor developed, remaining only on paper. The concepts are real however, albeit I do not know at what point in time they originated. I found close to no information on the A13 and A14, and am inclined to believe that they are purely fictional.
The A11 and A12 would have been additional stages for the A9/A10 in order to reach orbit. Not much calculations (if any) have been done to my knowledge, so whether or not the concept was realistic is unknown.
All evidence points to them originated in the mind of von Braun *after* the war. Perhaps within minutes of him deciding to surrender to the Americans; they were a way for him to pad his resume and get a job. All known illustrations of them are post-war.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Exactly. Von Braun doubted that his A4 knowledge would be enough - there were hundreds of other German rocket engineers who could explain everything about A4, after all - so he needed some kind of unique knowledge, that would attract American interests. The A4b didn't work, the A8 ("super V-2" on storable fuel) wasn't impressive enough, so he invented the A11/A12 concept.
Thing is, just resting on his laurel probably would have been enough.
Double thing is, the US might well have done better had we decided to pass on WvB, or at least pass on making him the Rocket King in the US. Had we instead relied on our own native rocket programs such as the Aerojet, Martin and NAA HATV effort, we *might* have gained an early lead in more advanced rocket tech like LOX/LH2.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Yes, but he wasn't sure of that. The stakes for him were much higher than for the most of German rocket engineers; Von Braun was a wanted war criminal, and it was not exactly unbelievable (at least from his point of view) that Americans could surrender him to British if they decide that his knowledge is not impressive enough to validate the damage from such association.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Agreed. The proto-Atlas ideas were actually much ahead of anything Von Braun have in immediate post-war years.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
The common German joke of 1930-1940s was that NSDAP means "Na, suchst du auch Pöstchen?" - "Ah, you also want to hold a (government) office?"
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I plugged DSIR 23/15145 into The National Archives (TNA) website.
It doesn't give the BIOS reference but the title is the same. It's not digitised so you'd have to go to Kew to read it.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Okay, this is an argument that at very least the document exist.
A pointless reply. I'm not talking about post-war intelligence reports released shortly after the end of hostilities. The spread of assumptions over decades has led to them becoming facts in the minds of the public.
Stupid "that's how you keep your job" stupidity is stupid. You either did work actual scientists could evaluate or you were let go for other duties. Or deported.
Near the end of the war, SS General Hans Kammler was named plenipotentiary over all German secret weapon projects. He was the third most powerful man in Germany after Hitler and Speer. No one could refuse his orders. When the war ended, rumors circulated that he had died by suicide in Bohemia. That was not true. He ended up in American custody. He was shielded from prosecution by U.S. military intelligence. What did he have that was so valuable?
The common post-war mythology that Germany ended its atomic bomb program sometime in 1943 is fiction. Researchers in Germany have located all relevant documents. The Deutsches Museum has those relevant documents. But everything is in German. Oh, but I can't read German. The book Physics and National Socialism provides a good overview. Translated from German, it provides other names. The names of other scientists involved in the German atomic bomb program, along with expenditures. Not Heisenberg. Other names. Kurt Diebner and Manfred von Ardenne. The Russians seized the latter's laboratory equipment, including his plasma-ionic separation device. He was taken to Russia to continue his work there.
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There are references to the same document in these two papers:
What they actually cite it for is, lamentably, behind a paywall.
Yes, your reply is pointless. You claim that extraordinary rockets were not only designed, but built. Yet you *insist* on providing zero evidence for that claim.
Yammer all you want, you could *easily* buttress your claims by simply providing actual evidence. If there were any. But there isn't.
You can yammer on as well. I provided the formerly classified CIOS Report and the article published in the Army Air Force Review which, while not providing specific details, puts to rest the decades-long fiction that the Germans were at no point, about to win the war.
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You provided a title and archival reference number, not what the document actually says, with the full context to allow proper interpretation.
I thought you weren't talking about 'post-war intelligence reports released shortly after the end of hostilities'?
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
You provided nothing. Merely the reference to the document, which you have no access to.
That is not a - as you call it - post-war intelligence report. It is an admission by the United States that Germany almost won the war due to rockets which they had at the time.
I have access to all documents. I have seen the original CIOS Report.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Then... well, I actually not sure how to say it to you... WHERE IS IT? WHERE THE REPORT? Frankly, I'm rather tired of your clumsy games and baseless declaration. Either you would produce the report, or I would stop consider anything you say to be of any value, except potential entertainment.
Prove it.
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That was your line when dismissing the (equally unsupported) claims of a 'sun gun'.
But the line you quote from the Army Air Force Review isn't an intelligence report, you're right. It's not an admission of anything. It's a line written by a journalist - one in uniform, perhaps, but all the same not nearly subject to the same standards of veracity as an intelligence report.
Let me add to that with a quote from August 2020:
@edwest4, do you have a copy of the report you are citing, which you have been citing for over four years, and of which you strongly implied you had a copy?
If so, please share the full section which you are citing, or preferably the entire report, so that the context of the claim can be understood.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Better don't hold breath here.
I gave up on A-11/A-12 breath-holding in the mid 1990's.
Back to @Justo Miranda very detailed and informative post. I was reading V-S day by Allen Steele and wondered about less radical, slightly most realistic PODs for nazi winged rockets. A9/A10 and Silbervogel were pipe dreams.
Such as: how about a winged V-2 (A4b) the simplest way with a decision circa 1941 ? More pointedly: OTL A4 baseline V2 carries on its development, the difference being 10% of them gets wings. And a range extension from 320 km to 750 km, more than doubled.
Make no mistake: this is a modest divergence from history that (mercifully !) won't win WWII for the nazis. Not with the V-2 17 km average CEP. The only historical interest is, with a range of 750 km the entire southern UK is within range of Germany-based missiles.
Check that (such an useful online tool !)
Such as: how about a winged V-2 (A4b) the simplest way with a decision circa 1941 ? More pointedly: OTL A4 baseline V2 carries on its development, the difference being 10% of them gets wings. And a range extension from 320 km to 750 km, more than doubled.
Make no mistake: this is a modest divergence from history that (mercifully !) won't win WWII for the nazis. Not with the V-2 17 km average CEP. The only historical interest is, with a range of 750 km the entire southern UK is within range of Germany-based missiles.
Check that (such an useful online tool !)
greenmartian2017
The Shadow knows what lurks in the hearts of men
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Hello everyone.
I am going to participate in this debate/discussion here with my own two cents on this subject matter.
It seems to me that a significant proportion of the debate I have been reading in this thread is based on information/research sourced to the 1990s or earlier, and some other materials possibly to the early 2000s, say 2005 or so.
I can inform you that a great deal of research has taken place since the early 2000s that has been exceptionally fruitful—both in insights as well as new revelations. Indeed, I think I can state here, with the greatest veracity, that new research efforts have been on-going for at least the last 10 to 15 years or so, by an extended invisible college of like-minded researchers around the world. The archives searched have been in the US, and in Europe, and even in Asia.
The upshot is this: Before the end of World War 2, the US found itself in the midst of a WMD proliferation regime it had not anticipated. This is part of the secret history of the world that has not been (since the end of WW 2 by the way) properly (as well as) publicly addressed in a form that the public should have been made aware of; instead, the majority of it has been suppressed. (I can vouchsafe for this myself—when I read the newer materials referenced below via the Rider Institute web portal, nearly all of it was new to me.)
Both the Nazi Germans, as well as the scientists of the Empire of Japan, had full-blown WMD research regimes happening—this is not in dispute.
(This discussion will be focused on Nazi German materials, but there is an additional wealth of materials dealing with the Empire of Japan activities that can be read in the third edition of Robert Wilcox’s seminal work on the topic “Japan’s Secret War: How Japan’s Race to Build its Own Atomic Bomb Provided the Groundwork for North Korea’s Nuclear Program” (Permuted Press, 2019). I recommend people read this book in its third edition.)
I will now direct your attention to the following webpage of the Rider Institute, founded by Dr. Todd H. Rider: https://riderinstitute.org/.
I will further direct your attention to the following webpage on this portal, called “Revolutionary Innovation,” and an on-line reference work called “Forgotten Creators: How German-speaking Scientists and Engineers Invented the Modern World, and What We Can Learn from Them”: https://riderinstitute.org/revolutionary-innovation/.
I am going to ask that you scroll down this page until you get to the section “Overview and Chapters of Forgotten Creators.” (I suggest everyone read the whole damn thing.)
But for the purposes of my argumentation….
The sections about Nazi German rocketry developments (including launching a two-stage rocket at least two times, and perhaps three prior to the end of the war, as well as apparently completed trans-Atlantic bombers ready to go located in Norway when the British overran the airfield) can be found here in Appendices E1 and E2, “Advanced Creations in Aerospace Engineering” that was updated in December 2024.
The sections dealing with Nazi German Atomic weaponry developments (including explorations of follow-on fission-fusion-fission weapons, that we call “hydrogen bombs”) in Appendices D1 through D9, “Advanced Creations in Nuclear Engineering.” What has been uncovered is that the Nazi Germans likely had at least three, and perhaps as many as five, nuclear detonation tests before the end of the war (and there is Allied overhead reconnaissance photography of the possible aftermath of one of these tests that is included in the e-book materials). Indeed, mention of one of these tests happened during the Nuremburg trials after the war, as it related to charges of crimes against humanity (effects testing on Jewish prisoners).
Now Orionblamblam and other readers may want to debate the quality of the evidence, but there can be no dispute that there is a large amount of aggregated evidence for Nazi German technology achievements (as reported during the war by contemporary news reportage, in Allied intelligence documentation, also including shortly after the war by Allied intelligence reportage, as well as via direct eyewitnesses who were recalling things years afterward) that go well beyond what one may read in histories or textbooks about what the Nazi Germans accomplished prior to the end of the War (as in, published in books or journals up through about 2005 or so).
One of the key things that Dr. Rider and colleagues did for this e-book series was to reproduce (at times in completeness) the reports garnered from the various archives (so you don’t have to chase these down yourself, and can read the materials in their original languages). Indeed, much of the material that is in foreign languages are translated into English for the benefit of American readership. (So there doesn’t have to be complaints about materials being used that no one can read to know what is in them.) Additionally, Dr. Rider and colleagues actually point out where in the document that is reproduced what the significant materials are by either arrows, brackets, or encircling.
I encourage everyone to read these chapter Appendices. They are easily downloadable individually as per the PDFs. Like I said previously, these materials are updated annually, and the current versions have been updated as to December 2024.
I am going to participate in this debate/discussion here with my own two cents on this subject matter.
It seems to me that a significant proportion of the debate I have been reading in this thread is based on information/research sourced to the 1990s or earlier, and some other materials possibly to the early 2000s, say 2005 or so.
I can inform you that a great deal of research has taken place since the early 2000s that has been exceptionally fruitful—both in insights as well as new revelations. Indeed, I think I can state here, with the greatest veracity, that new research efforts have been on-going for at least the last 10 to 15 years or so, by an extended invisible college of like-minded researchers around the world. The archives searched have been in the US, and in Europe, and even in Asia.
The upshot is this: Before the end of World War 2, the US found itself in the midst of a WMD proliferation regime it had not anticipated. This is part of the secret history of the world that has not been (since the end of WW 2 by the way) properly (as well as) publicly addressed in a form that the public should have been made aware of; instead, the majority of it has been suppressed. (I can vouchsafe for this myself—when I read the newer materials referenced below via the Rider Institute web portal, nearly all of it was new to me.)
Both the Nazi Germans, as well as the scientists of the Empire of Japan, had full-blown WMD research regimes happening—this is not in dispute.
(This discussion will be focused on Nazi German materials, but there is an additional wealth of materials dealing with the Empire of Japan activities that can be read in the third edition of Robert Wilcox’s seminal work on the topic “Japan’s Secret War: How Japan’s Race to Build its Own Atomic Bomb Provided the Groundwork for North Korea’s Nuclear Program” (Permuted Press, 2019). I recommend people read this book in its third edition.)
I will now direct your attention to the following webpage of the Rider Institute, founded by Dr. Todd H. Rider: https://riderinstitute.org/.
I will further direct your attention to the following webpage on this portal, called “Revolutionary Innovation,” and an on-line reference work called “Forgotten Creators: How German-speaking Scientists and Engineers Invented the Modern World, and What We Can Learn from Them”: https://riderinstitute.org/revolutionary-innovation/.
I am going to ask that you scroll down this page until you get to the section “Overview and Chapters of Forgotten Creators.” (I suggest everyone read the whole damn thing.)
But for the purposes of my argumentation….
The sections about Nazi German rocketry developments (including launching a two-stage rocket at least two times, and perhaps three prior to the end of the war, as well as apparently completed trans-Atlantic bombers ready to go located in Norway when the British overran the airfield) can be found here in Appendices E1 and E2, “Advanced Creations in Aerospace Engineering” that was updated in December 2024.
The sections dealing with Nazi German Atomic weaponry developments (including explorations of follow-on fission-fusion-fission weapons, that we call “hydrogen bombs”) in Appendices D1 through D9, “Advanced Creations in Nuclear Engineering.” What has been uncovered is that the Nazi Germans likely had at least three, and perhaps as many as five, nuclear detonation tests before the end of the war (and there is Allied overhead reconnaissance photography of the possible aftermath of one of these tests that is included in the e-book materials). Indeed, mention of one of these tests happened during the Nuremburg trials after the war, as it related to charges of crimes against humanity (effects testing on Jewish prisoners).
Now Orionblamblam and other readers may want to debate the quality of the evidence, but there can be no dispute that there is a large amount of aggregated evidence for Nazi German technology achievements (as reported during the war by contemporary news reportage, in Allied intelligence documentation, also including shortly after the war by Allied intelligence reportage, as well as via direct eyewitnesses who were recalling things years afterward) that go well beyond what one may read in histories or textbooks about what the Nazi Germans accomplished prior to the end of the War (as in, published in books or journals up through about 2005 or so).
One of the key things that Dr. Rider and colleagues did for this e-book series was to reproduce (at times in completeness) the reports garnered from the various archives (so you don’t have to chase these down yourself, and can read the materials in their original languages). Indeed, much of the material that is in foreign languages are translated into English for the benefit of American readership. (So there doesn’t have to be complaints about materials being used that no one can read to know what is in them.) Additionally, Dr. Rider and colleagues actually point out where in the document that is reproduced what the significant materials are by either arrows, brackets, or encircling.
I encourage everyone to read these chapter Appendices. They are easily downloadable individually as per the PDFs. Like I said previously, these materials are updated annually, and the current versions have been updated as to December 2024.
