A very puzzling pair of would-be pre-war French bombers

[Apophenia]

But there's two airframes here. IIRC, only Bordelaise only built one AB.80.

 

[Sherman Tank]

It's also a pretty lousy bunker since it's titled to one side and unable to depress the guns enough to engage ground targets. Not to mention that it isn't even protected by earthen walls or anything.

 

[woodville]

Hi,
Here's a photo of the wing structure of the AB-80 from 'L'aeronautique a Bacalan' (page 55). Can any conclusions be drawn from it?

 

[GTX]

Hi,
Here's a photo of the wing structure of the AB-80 from 'L'aeronautique a Bacalan' (page 55). Can any conclusions be drawn from it?

The wing internals of the history aircraft would appear quite different.

 

[Apophenia]

Here's a photo of the wing structure of the AB-80 from 'L'aeronautique a Bacalan' (page 55). Can any conclusions be drawn from it?

The section at the nacelle certainly looks similar to the mystery airframe. But, the AB.80 wing panels obviously detached outboard of the nacelles. If the mystery plane is the AB.80, that means it must have had a 5-part wing with separate outboard and inboard wing panel pairs plus a fuselage-top centre section. Does that seem plausible?

 

[juanT]

Hi
in my files, in this case from "Aviation Magazine Int.", I found this photo whose part of the caption says...
"... one of our readers sends us this period document (1932) which proves that the technicians of the SPCA had ideas of machine gun turrets of their own ..." In my opinion, this enigmatic aircraft does not look like a development of SPCA, but this company also developed large turrets.

 

[Grey Havoc]

An Armeé de l'Air bird bailed as a testbed, you are thinking?

 

[juanT]

An Armeé de l'Air bird bailed as a testbed, you are thinking?

hmm...it is possible, very good observation

 

[archipeppe]

This happens when a French bomber crashes into the Maginot Line...



Indeed it is really interesting topic. What were those aircrafts, scrapped or unfinished prototypes? Mock-ups? Who knows...

Anyway their design scream to me Farman F.224



Some considerations:

1. Note the wing position and its chord
2. The tail seems to be the same
3. Last but not least: only a 4 engined aircraft could lift those monstrous turret. Forget any 2 engines medium bomber...

 

[Archibald]

This happens when a French bomber crashes into the Maginot Line...

View attachment 662090

Indeed it is really interesting topic. What were those aircrafts, scrapped or unfinished prototypes? Mock-ups? Who knows...

Anyway their design scream to me Farman F.224

View attachment 662091

Some considerations:

1. Note the wing position
2. The tail seems to be the same
3. Last but not least: only a 4 engined aircraft could lift those monstrous turret. Forget any 2 engins medium bomber...

There were a lot of weird and stupid ideas floated by French aircraft companies before May 1940.
One project of a tactical compressed air catapult to launch light aircraft ended launching LeO-451 bombers instead... and grew to gargantuan size.
Maybe somebody tried to rebuild a Farman's forward fuselage with a big turret and big guns, perhaps as a flying cruiser ?
Cases in point
-Surcouf with 203 mm guns
-Schneider flying cruiser: a zeppelin carrying a 75 mm gun
So why not a Farman with a big turret ?

 

[Hood]

For of all the analysis we've done, only two designs have ever matched the thick wing root and visible wing structure and most of the fuselage panels and that is the A.B. 80 or perhaps the L.H. 70.
How two of these came to exist (only one A.B. 80 was built) or how and why they were modified remain mysteries.

 

[archipeppe]

For of all the analysis we've done, only two designs have ever matched the thick wing root and visible wing structure and most of the fuselage panels and that is the A.B. 80 or perhaps the L.H. 70.
How two of these came to exist (only one A.B. 80 was built) or how and why they were modified remain mysteries.

You mean this one?



In my opinion it is too small, the tail is not exactly what we see in both photo and derivative artwork. Furthermore it is only 2 engined, to be effective that aircraft would have 4 engines.

 

[juanT]

Hi.
I edited the photography a bit by means of 3D rotation and changes in perspective to give a little more idea, than I think, it would be the profile of this device, I hope it will be useful.

 

[Archibald]

I was wondering - somebody should send a message to Le Fana de l'aviation with the photos and ask them to publish it, asking their (relatively large) readership if they know something about it.
I did that a couple of times in 2006-2007 and they were kind enough to answer.

So maybe we could ask there - fanaaviation@editions-lariviere.fr

 

[archipeppe]

A couple of considerations of what we see in the photo:

- There are two of such aircrafts (ok it is easy to see)
- Both of them missed the wing, engines, etc (again we know it)
- One of them is without the turret (someone else already wrote it)
- Both of them seems to have received French camo, clearly visibile in what remain of the fuselage and tails
- The camo implies that one or both aircrafts were operative or at least flown before the fall of France
- The three-engined aircraft of background resembles a lot a Ju-52 rather than an Italian ones, look at the two blades propeller. Italian aircraft was all with three-blades
- If the aircraft on background is a Ju-52 (and I do really think so) this means that the photo was took in a french airfield after the fall, or in Vichy's one.

Again the mistery: we are in presence of at least one unknown French aircraft that probably flew and probably fought and that was scrapped after the armistice with Germany.

Absolutely intriguing!!

 

[Archibald]

I have made a draft e-mail to Le Fana, need to polish it before sending.

 

[Archibald]

Send ! wait and see... publication delays : september or october...

 

[juanT]

Hi.
I decided to try to generate a 3D model (low poly in this case) from this unique photo of this enigmatic aircraft and of course, any criticism or suggestion would be welcome

 

[klem]

Following the various speculations on the picture showing an aircraft without wings at the base of Chivières in Belgium (Base 404 of the Luftwaffe), the plane seems to have had modifications, the most visible are the tail like that of the SAB AB-80 and a wing modified for a need of motorization but its fuselage is identical to the Potez 62.all these elements modified by whom mystery ..., it seems that the famous turret, is not guns but a radar equipment (French or German - mystery too)

 

[Hood]

it seems that the famous turret, is not guns but a radar equipment (French or German - mystery too)

How do you come to that conclusion?
The other reader's letter on that page is referring to Vickers Wellington R1629 with its radar rotodome being the first AWACS which pre-dates the USN's B-17 conversion as the PB-1W.

 

[archipeppe]

it seems that the famous turret, is not guns but a radar equipment (French or German - mystery too)

How do you come to that conclusion?
The other reader's letter on that page is referring to Vickers Wellington R1629 with its radar rotodome being the first AWACS which pre-dates the USN's B-17 conversion as the PB-1W.

I agree with @Hood, furthermore the radar in that position would be not so much effective with an extra penalty to be potentially dangerous for pilots.

It was definitely a gun turret, more like the Defiant but in foward position rather than rear.

 

[CiTrus90]

The more I look at, the more I think this is an aircraft based on a Farman F-224.

I had some doubts because the wing seemed completely different (and way more thicker than on the original F-224), but after seeing footage of the aircraft in flight I think the wing did not look as thick on standard F-224s because there is a fairing that runs from the trailing edge and blends into the tailplanes.

If that faring got removed as part of the plethora of other mods applied to the aircraft, the rest of the shapes (minus the cockpit, clearly), are a complete match in my opinion.

 

[riggerrob]

Hi.
I decided to try to generate a 3D model (low poly in this case) from this unique photo of this enigmatic aircraft and of course, any criticism or suggestion would be welcome

How do you import photographs into your CAD program?
Which CAD program are you using?

 

[juanT]

Hi riggerrob and everyone, I use an old software called Metasequoia, but I think that the procedure to generate a model from a single photo is the same in any 3D program ... I did this little tutorial to show how I designed the previous model of which unfortunately I still there are no plans to guide me ... but I think it is a Farman as Archipeppe said ... in this case I used a perspective photograph of a Latecoere 350, I only did the nose section in low poly ... sorry if it is not very detailed my explanation, is what I could do on my Sunday morning, my eyes and brain did not give for more ... I hope it is useful anyway ..
Saludos!

 

[Richard N]

3D modeling software Metasequoia official web site: https://www.metaseq.net/en/

A free version is available and licensed full versions are reasonably priced.

 

[klem]

The Germans also thought of a turret weapon scheme quite similar to the one shown on the mystery picture (Hertel/Junkers patent)

 

[Grzesio]

I have to confess, there's one thing I do not like in this picture.
The framework of the wing root looks like a photo of a real framework, taken slightly from behind, and put as a flat texture on a 3D model. It lacks depth and the perspective of its internal components is strange.

 

[Jemiba]

Well, an unpleasant, but nevertheless necessary thought. Are there other details, that
maybe support the idea, that this picture was doctored ?

 

[Hood]

I don't think its necessarily been doctored, I think it would look too obvious if it was. But it is an old 1940s negative and pretty grainy so I'd be wary about reading too much into the lack of depth given the resolution and quality is pretty low, presumably taken by a German solider with a small hand-held camera, it's not like it was a professional aviation photographer doing the shot.

I find it odd that nothing further has come out about the origins of the photo and no further discussion over the years, even in the Francophone press.

 

[archipeppe]

I find it odd that nothing further has come out about the origins of the photo and no further discussion over the years, even in the Francophone press.

That's the point, did it is possible that an aircraft type that reached the prototype status (despite if it flown or not) left only a mere b/w photo and nothing more?
No paper, no document, no blueprints? It is likely that in the last days of France somenthing like this happened?

Indeed, my two cents are that the photo seems to be genuine.

Anyway we cannot exclude the possibility of a fake image, this would left a further question: the whole aircraft is a fake? Or did it is a modification of a real one? If so what aircraft "generated" such image? Nobody seems to know...

So even in the case of a fake there will be more questions than answers.