OS-130: Competitors to the Vought F-8 Crusader

[overscan (PaulMM)]

From Tony Buttler. He is looking for;

North American's competitor to the Vought Crusader (spec was OS-130). This too had a variable incidence wing, but weighed 30,000lb which is why it lost. If anyone has a drawing or a model of this project, please let me know. It is one of the bigs gaps in the fighter book.

Can anyone help?

Paul.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The requirement was issued in September 1952 to McDonnell, North American, Douglas, Convair, Lockheed, Grumman, Chance-Vought and Republic. Vought's V-383 was selected in May 1953.

Source:

• Peter Mersky, Vought F-8 Crusader, Osprey Air Combat, 1989.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

A total of 21 proposals were submitted from eight different aircraft companies. The most viable proposals were deemed by the Navy to be the Grumman XF11F-2 (a version of the F11F Tiger powered by the General Electric J79), the McDonnell F3H-G (a twin-engined adaptation of the F3H Demon), and the North American "Super Fury" (a navalized F-100), plus the Vought submission, which was given the company designation V-383.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f8_1.html

 

[elmayerle]

I got these pics courtesy of Bill Simone, author of Ginter's F-107 book. I suspect they depict the FJ-5.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hey, does this forum rock or what!! Nice pictures Evan.

 

[elmayerle]

Thanks. Tell Tony he'd best clear the use of those with Bill Simone first. I know he's got Bill's work email.

The nice thing about those is that it's eminently modelable. It's one of my projects that I'm gathering all the parts for. I figure I'll be doing it in production unit markings.

Oh, as far as I know, the Douglas F5D-2 was their entry in this competition.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

McDonnell F3H-G (a twin-engined adaptation of the F3H Demon)

According to Bill Guston's F-4 Phantom book, the F3H-G was only started when McDonnell lost the day fighter contest to Vought. This would make the above incorrect.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

According to Jeff Ethell, the F3H-G design was started in Summer 1953, immediately after losing the Day Fighter competition to Vought.

Presumably their design for this competition was an F3H derivative, but not F3H-G.

 

[devi]

1) General Dynamics/Convair Model ?
2) Douglas Model 6??
3) Grumman Model 97
4) Lockheed Model CL-?/Model ?
5) McDonnell Model 98...
6) North American Model RD-? (or ?),"FJ-5"
7) Republic Model AP-? (or NP-?)
8) Vought Model 383--------------------------------XF8U-1

 

[Pioneer]

I am very interested to see these designs. Although I am very sorry that I do not have much to contribute in the way of this topic, except that I think the F-8 was a great (but underated design by history) design

Regards
Pioneer

 

[hesham]

Dear Devi,

the McDonnell model-98 was for F-4 Phantom II ,and didn't exist in that time.

 

[hesham]

Devi,

for F-8 competition there were 22 proposals, from them were:

Northamerican Super Fury FJ-5,McDonnell F3H-G,Dopuglas F5D-1.

 

[elmayerle]

Actually, I think Douglas was proposing the F5D-2, powered by a J79, as its entry. Given a F5D-1 kit and the aft end of a F-104 fuselage (with exhaust nozzle), you could easily model one of these.

 

[Archibald]

...and I have this F-104 exhaust left by my CL-1200 Lancer. So I think about doing that model for some times now

 

[Archibald]

According to Jeff Ethell, the F3H-G design was started in Summer 1953, immediately after losing the Day Fighter competition to Vought.
Presumably their design for this competition was an F3H derivative, but not F3H-G.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_1.html

 

[elmayerle]

...and I have this F-104 exhaust left by my CL-1200 Lancer. So I think about doing that model for some times now

Then you really need, if you don't already have it, the Ginter book on the F5D, since it has drawings of the F5D-2 proposal.

 

[Antonio]

Grumman G-97 from

Minidocavia 7
Les Chasseurs navals américains 2ème partie. Alain Pelletier. Editions Larivière
(Highly recomended book for very little money!!!)

 

[devi]

Hi pometablava
It is personally difficult to me to get the book "Les Chasseurs navals américains" 2ème partie,
Minidocavia 7.
Please if it is possible tell about Model G-97 and about other projects which are in this fine to the book.

 

[Antonio]

Grumman 97 data

Powerplant: 1 P&W J57; 6715 Kgp
V max: 1470 Km/h
Ceiling: 16 765 m
Max weight: 9,7 t
Span: 10,2
Lenght: 13,2
Armament: 4x20 mm cannon and 4 Sparrow AAM

 

[Antonio]

Slightly off-topic but here it is the list of USN unbuilt Fighters in MiniDocavia 7

Grumman XF9F-1 (4 jet)
Vought V-346C
Douglas D-571
Douglas D-592
Douglas F3D-3
Grumman XF12F
Grumman Type 97
Douglas F6D
Douglas D-790
Lockheed CL-520
McDD Type 225
Grumman Type 607

 

[devi]

Hi pometablava.

Many thanks for the information
Please if it is possible tell about Douglas D-592(3-view drawings,figure & Specifications), and it participated in what competition?
If is in it to the book 3-view drawings of Grumman Type 97 please show us.

 

[Antonio]

Hi Devi,

it is a pleasure to share knowledge

No G-97 3 view is available in my sources. I'm sorry.

Little info is available about D-592. It was an all weather interceptor with radar and missile armament. It was an unsolicited submission from Douglas to the US Navy in 1948 but remained as a project only. Span: 9,80 m and Lenght: 12,0 m

Source: Minidocavia 7

(If anybody is interested in Editions Larivière products you can ask here (georgie.murat@editions-lariviere.fr) as I did, they are very kind and speak English )

 

[devi]

Hi pometablava.

Many thanks for the information.
Quite interesting project.

Also I think, what if Douglas participated at competition with McDonnell Model 58 (XF3H-1) it would be project Model D-59? Or D-60?( not D-592 and not D-593)
and, how you think?

 

[Antonio]

In my opinion, Douglas contender in the same competition with McDonnell model 58 would have a design number near "600" because D-592 dates back from 1948 and Mc Donnell Model 58 was designed a few years later. This week I'll do some research on the subject

cheers

Antonio

 

[Matej]

Devi,

If you are searching for any navy competition, I highly recommend you to search in this magazines (link from U.S. VSTOL thread):

http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/backissues/newbackissues.htm

Read them and after year or two please refer what you know ;D I just downloaded them - some 4500 MB of stuff.

 

[Matej]

A-7 resecue flight capsule

Source: Naval Aviation News july/1971

F-8 with canards (ough!)

Source: Naval Aviation News may/1971

 

[Matej]

Another view on recovery capsule.

 

[TinWing]

F-8 with canards (ough!)

Source: Naval Aviation News may/1971

Every old idea is new again.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

According to Tony Buttler:

McDonnell's submissions to the OS-130 requirement (F8U Crusader) were the Models 90 and 91. These were very similar and basically showed a Demon fuselage coupled with a straight F-104-type wing. They were rejected of course and the F3H-G/H series followed soon afterwards.

 

[devi]

eight manufacturers: 21 or 22 projects.

1) Grumman Model G-97
Model G-98
2) McDonnell Model M-90
Model M-91
3) Vought Model V-383--------XF8U-1
Model V-384(probably)
4) Convair Model ? and ....
5) Douglas Model D-6?? and ...
6) North American Model RD-? ( or ?) and ....
7) Lockheed TDN Model L-2?? and ...
8) Republic Model AP-? and ...(or NP-? and ...)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

According to Bill Gunston in "Fighter's of the Fifties", as well as F-100B (NA-211) and F-107 (NA-212) a third version was designed for the Navy as "Super Fury" but was not assigned an NA- series designation.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Among the profusion of submissions were canard (tail first) designs, one with variable sweep, and fighters with three or four engines

Source:

Bill Gunston, Fighters of the Fifties, PSL, 1981

 

[garys]

In a back issue of The Hook I have somewhere in storage is a small artist's rendering purported to be NA's entry in the competition that brought us the F-8. It looks very much like a Navalised F-100, but with high wing, and side intakes.
The aircraft is in gloss blue, with a single letter tailcode, which should date it to around the early to mid fifties.

Gary

 

[elmayerle]

I've posted pictures here of a model of another NAA proposal, the one that looks like a navalized cross between the F-107 and the F-100, using the F-100's pitot inlet in place of the fully-variable one of the F-107 and clearly have a rear fuselage that carries a J57, not a J75.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Gary - welcome to the forum.

If you get a chance, Tony Buttler would be most grateful for a scan of the pic or a reference as to which issue it appeared in.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

July's Air Enthusiast will feature an article on Competitors to the Vought F-8 Crusader, probably by Tony Buttler.

 

[garys]

Thank you. I've been a lurker for a while. I will try and dig that issue up.

Gary

 

[Mark Nankivil]

A couple of photos of a display model in the possession of the Vought Retiree's Club aka - Heritage Foundation. This is a very early look at the F-8 and gives an idea of where it evolved from. Too bad a bubble canopy did not remain as part of the final design...

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

July/August's Air Enthusiast is here, with Tony Buttler's article "Crusader Rivals" based on a chapter from his forthcoming book. Highly recommended!

Model pics: Vought V-383, Grumman G-97 (Manufacturer models), N-94 (John Hall)
Drawings: Vought V-383, V-384, Northrop N-94 (side views), Grumman G-97, Lockheed Model 242-1, McDonnell-Douglas Model 90, North American Navy Super Fury (3 view)

Mentioned without illustration: Douglas D-652 (Skyhawk based), D-653 (Skyray based), McDonnell-Douglas Model 91, 93, Northrop N-94A/B/C.

The Super Fury project is the one shown earlier in this topic and not the one described above by "Garys". I think the one described by Garys is the actual NAA submission, so hopefully he'll get around to posting it.

 

[Skybolt]

Envy, envy, not yet in newsstands in Italy... Grrrr