1965 - 1969 FX Competition (F-15 alternatives)

mithril said:
question. did Fairchild ever do art of a twin tailed version of the FX proposal Pioneer posted?
Click to expand...

There are shots of an earlier VG configuration with twin tails in Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects: Fighters and Interceptors 1945-1978.
 
Fairchild Republic's and North American Rockwell's FX proposals are now pretty well documented... But what of Grumman's G-300 and G-399?
 
G-399 was their FX design. Tony Buttler has photos of models of the G-399-42 and G-399-45 variants in American Secret Projects.

Grumman did not really bother with an FX submission as they had already won the F-14 contact and there was zero chance of getting the FX contract as well. The only real FX contender remaining to be documented is the General Dynamics one.

Hillaker was opinionated and rebellious. One of the starting points of the F-16 was when Hillaker was dispatched by the bosses at Fort Worth to try to sell the Air Force their F-X contender - a competitor to the F-15. The new design had a swing wing, not so much because it made sense but because the high sheriffs thought that if it didn't, it would reflect poorly on the then-controversial F-111. After a less-than-enthusiastic hearing from the USAF, Hillaker was close to quitting - but then got the assignment to design a lightweight fighter prototype, quite possibly because someone at a high level knew damn well that it didn't stand a chance.
Click to expand...


There are two possible General Dynamics designs - a model depicted in American Secret Projects with conventional front fuselage and F-15 style inlets and this one posted in page 1 of this topic with blunt LERX like the earliest F-16 configurations. I think this is the final configuration, due to its similarity to early LWF work at GD:

gd-fx-vg-1-jpg.162387


This FX-404 configuration is almost a fixed wing version of it...

404-drawing-jpg.11340
 
Last edited:
What I truly find fascinating about the whole FX competition is that the designation F-15 (and maybe also the name Eagle) was already established and the contenders used it in their own promotional material even before it was allocated to anyone. I can't think of any other example of this happening. Any clues?
 
If that is indeed the case I'm also intrigued, as the aircraft name they were planning to re-use was that of a plane that never actually entered service, but was much ballyhooed in the press, the Fisher P-75a Eagle.

en.wikipedia.org

Fisher P-75 Eagle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Last edited:

Attachments

  • Scores.jpg
    Scores.jpg
    23 KB · Views: 1,764
  • McDonnell-Douglas.jpg
    McDonnell-Douglas.jpg
    80.1 KB · Views: 1,831
  • Fairchild.jpg
    Fairchild.jpg
    84.7 KB · Views: 1,901
  • North American.jpg
    North American.jpg
    85.4 KB · Views: 1,846
Probably a silly question for all F-15 experts, but is/was carriage of two sidewinders instead of
one Sparrow on the intake edge, as shown in the MDD genearl arrangement drawing, really possible ?
 
No. They aren't Sidewinders, they are probably generic representations of SRM, a planned new short range missile which was abandoned after 6 months study in 1970.


Sidewinder isn't that much shorter than a Sparrow.
 
overscan said:
No. They aren't Sidewinders, they are probably generic representations of SRM, a planned new short range missile which was abandoned after 6 months study in 1970.


Sidewinder isn't that much shorter than a Sparrow.
Click to expand...

From the Evolution thread. As I recall they were notional AIM-82s.
 

Attachments

  • xD4C+63454+Jun-16-69.jpg
    xD4C+63454+Jun-16-69.jpg
    149.8 KB · Views: 1,562
Yes, AIM-82s. The design shown must be perhaps even shorter than the Russian R-60 or the AIM-4 Falcon in length - maybe 1.7m?
 
What an amazing document! I glanced through it, but I can't wait to read it in full. At least I finally know why the ventral fins were removed and the vertical tails were made taller. Go NASA!
 
I'm surprised North American was last. They way I've heard it, I expected them to be first with McDonnell Douglas only edging them out due to recent experience.
 
Wonder what "Twin Sukhoi" is? (68 TF) Su-24 (T-6)? It is referred to on page 31.
 
Thanks for the find Overscan - much appreciated!

Via a McAir engineer I have much respect for and was deeply involved int he F-15 design/development, the NA design had some poor spin characteristics. I wonder if that is reflected in the early Flanker issues? The Republic design was faulted for the complexity of the airframe and flight controls.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 
Hi,


I heard that,the FX was intended as a 3 Mach ground attack/interceptor aircraft.


Source; Aviation Week May 2,1966.
 
Read through the program history linked earlier in this thread. Early on in the concept formulation process, both Mach 3 and ground attack capabilities were considered for the FX program. Around 1966, the speed requirement started coming down. Air-to-ground capability lingered for a couple of years but eventually faded out as well.
 
Various interesting snippets from Aviation Week Archive including some interesting phased array radar designs for FX. Interestingly AWST suggests McDonnell were added late to the 3 assigned contracts (only 2 planned) indicating Rockwell and Fairchild were front runners at that stage.
 

Attachments

  • 19680805FX.jpeg
    19680805FX.jpeg
    24.6 KB · Views: 710
  • 19680415FX3.jpeg
    19680415FX3.jpeg
    144.7 KB · Views: 444
  • 19680415FX2.jpeg
    19680415FX2.jpeg
    72.2 KB · Views: 454
  • 19680415FX.jpeg
    19680415FX.jpeg
    180 KB · Views: 446
  • 19680506FX.jpeg
    19680506FX.jpeg
    10.7 KB · Views: 362
  • 19681007FX.jpeg
    19681007FX.jpeg
    35 KB · Views: 333
  • 19681111FX.jpeg
    19681111FX.jpeg
    29 KB · Views: 917
  • 19690106FX.jpeg
    19690106FX.jpeg
    25.1 KB · Views: 1,071
  • awst19691124FX.jpeg
    awst19691124FX.jpeg
    214.1 KB · Views: 1,132
This is particularly interesting as it shows a very different FX requirement in 1966.
 

Attachments

  • 19660418FX.jpeg
    19660418FX.jpeg
    476.4 KB · Views: 475
Several major avionics companies will be supporting potential airframe prime contractors in forthcoming competitions for USAF’s FX air superiority fighter and Navy’s VFAX close support aircraft. Autonetics is on the Lockheed/Ling-Temco-Vought team, while Raytheon is supporting the North American Los Angeles Div. and Columbus Div. effort. Westinghouse is backing the Boeing/Grumman team planned for the two competitions.
Click to expand...

Aviation Week and Space Technology July 10 1967

Interestingly, McDonnell-Douglas chose to do the avionics integration themselves.
 
Lockheed Aircraft Corp., Northrop Corp. and Boeing Co. have told USAF informally they will not be in the bidding for the FX air-superiority fighter (AW&ST Oct. 7, p. 26). LTV Aerospace, which was to have been teamed with Lockheed-California Co. on the proposal, is considering bidding on its own. Republic Div. of Fairchild Hiller Corp., which was invited to bid, will team with Hughes Aircraft Co. as prospective co-prime contractors. Grumman, which was not named as one of the eight firms asked for proposals, was given a chance but opted out. Still in the bidding are McDonnell Douglas Corp., General Dynamics and North American Rockwell. Proposals are due Nov. 18.
Click to expand...

Aviation Week October 28 1968
 
Thanks to Tony Chong's book Flying Wings and Radical Things, we can provisionally identify Northrop's FX study as the N310 Advanced Tactical Fighter of April 1968. It looks like an enlarged P530 Cobra of 62ft 5in length, and span 42ft 4in compared to 55ft 4in length and a 35ft span for typical P530 configuration. I disagree with Tony's suggestion it used GE15/J1A2 turbojets of 10,000lb - this would be quite clearly underpowered for such a large aircraft - but it was likely a GE1 core derivative in the turbojet/low bypass ratio turbofan configuration with 15,000 - 20,000lb thrust (possibly early GE15/J1A5 type).

Northrop formally declined to enter a bid for FX in the autumn of 1968 and instead teamed as subcontractor to North American Rockwell.

According to both Tony Chong and Tony Buttler, N310 was also known as P700 and eventually evolved into the N347 otherwise known as the Northrop/Dornier ND/102.
 
crgis.ndc.nasa.gov

NACA/NASA Langley: Celebrating 100 Years

NASA.gov brings you the latest images, videos and news from America's space agency. Get the latest updates on NASA missions, watch NASA TV live, and learn about our quest to reveal the unknown and benefit all humankind.
crgis.ndc.nasa.gov crgis.ndc.nasa.gov

This PDF shows that Lockheed and LTV were teamed on FX on Sept 26 1967 when discussing wind tunnel models with NASA. It also confirms LFAX4A configuration was designed prior to this time.
 

Attachments

  • FX_Model_Correspondence.pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 124
American Secret Projects has additional (3 B&W, 1 colour) shots of this model (G399-45) and two B&W pics of G399-42 (single tail, crazy long nose).
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom