Chengdu J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter

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So why is the radar canted up at an angle like that? Any ideas? I have been wondering about this for years in regards to AESA radars in general.
 
FighterJock said:
Did not realise that a canted AESA radar helps with Radar Cross Section reduction F-2, thanks.
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There are actually two ways to reduce frontal RCS contributed by radar. First is by canting the radar like they do in J-10C. Second is through material composition of the radome, which is impermeable to electromagnetic radiation exception for the narrow band of spectrum used by the fighter’s radar. The second approach is supposedly used for Rafale. A combination of both approaches used in most fifth generation fighter aircraft.
 
siegecrossbow said:
There are actually two ways to reduce frontal RCS contributed by radar. First is by canting the radar like they do in J-10C. Second is through material composition of the radome, which is impermeable to electromagnetic radiation exception for the narrow band of spectrum used by the fighter’s radar. The second approach is supposedly used for Rafale. A combination of both approaches used in most fifth generation fighter aircraft.
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Frequency Selective (GRFP) material layers aren't that new and used on a number of radars. Problem is that within the frequency bandwidth they are transparent and the question is, how narrow the bandpass transparency actually is. Against enemy fighters which are virtually all using X-band systems there might not be much of an "protection". Against non-X band emitters used by mostly ground based threats it works, but here it is somewhat less problematic due to the angular offset.
 
Funny how things come full circle sometimes. Israel develops Lavi and based on that, helps the Chinese with their aircraft industry which ends in the J-10 development (disputed claim).
Egypt can’t acquire high end BVR missiles from western partners somehow and therefore gets the J-10 with PL-15s. (Aesa radar being a factor too)
Obviously it isn’t a “Game-Changer” against Israeli F-35s but still funny, isn’t it?
 
hesham said:
We get it,

defencesecurityasia.com

Game-Changer in the Skies: Has Egypt Already Deployed China’s J-10CE Fighters Armed with Deadly PL-15 Missiles ?? - Defence Security Asia

The Egyptian Air Force may have just taken a major leap in air combat capability with the reported arrival of its first batch of J-10CE fighter jets from China—powerful multirole aircraft armed with the cutting-edge PL-15 beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missiles.
defencesecurityasia.com defencesecurityasia.com
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Well, I‘m pretty sure uncle Sam will try its best to prevent this deal by any means, so that I would rate it a done deal, only when they arrive in Egypt. Just Look at the Su-35-Saga!
 
For me that sounds like a maintenance nightmare. Having 3-4 different 4th Gen Multirole fighters with different engines etc.
The only advantage I could see is the unpredictability but that is dearly bought. Especially for a country with dire money problems.
 
had said:
For me that sounds like a maintenance nightmare. Having 3-4 different 4th Gen Multirole fighters with different engines etc.
The only advantage I could see is the unpredictability but that is dearly bought. Especially for a country with dire money problems.
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There are a few that have that problem but I agree with your assessment
 
"He also complained that the deal with the other three potential J-10CE buyers will take time because payments will be in unorthodox form (implying minerals or oil). Apparently Chinese MIC hates doing business like this because there are invisible costs and headaches associated with trying to offload these assets. Egypt despite not being a developed economy does have a lot of cash on hand, so that could facilitate the process."

Screenshot 2025-02-20 141010.png
 
Would love to know who are the other 3 countries.

Anyway, it's pretty clear why Egypt chose diversification despite it's costs, their F-16s are nearly useless in any kind of serious conflict (see the openly displayed greater-Israel goal of their eastern neighbour), and they can really only count on the MiG-35s and maybe Rafales (though that is in doubt given France's continued appeasement of said eastern neighbour) and the small and obsolete fleet of Mirage-2000. So the J-10CE would be a very welcome boost both numerically and in capability. The logical follow on to that being a J-35 order.

As for Su-35, Egypt has only itself to blame on that one, by giving in to US blackmail to the detriment of their own national security. Su-35 would have given EAF a quantum leap in capability, and if logically followed by a Su-57 buy, propelled as one of the most capable air forces in the world, let alone region, especially when coupled with a J-10/J-35 buy.

Back to the J-10, why didn't China managed to sell any of the original J-10As? Were there any serious buyers/orders for it?

.
 
lancer21 said:
Back to the J-10, why didn't China managed to sell any of the original J-10As? Were there any serious buyers/orders for it?
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The current posture of the People's Liberation Army is quite unrecognizable from that of the PLA from 2000s-10s. Imagine that you're the PLA-AF/-NAF of that time period and you are in a necessity to seriously modernize your pitiful air force.

The most modern jets that you can procure are the J-10 that had only recently become available and J-11s (11A is a locally assembled Su-27SK and 11B is a then-recently developed wholly Chinese jet with passable Chinese avionics and engines). You have many hundreds of J-7s&J-8II/Bs to replace and you face just as numerous F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, F-22s and soon F-35s.

Your industrial base can produce no more than 100 70-80(?) J-10 and J-11 annually, would you reserve some of those production slots for some export customer or would you try to quickly catch up to your adversaries' level as a newcomer to the modern era aerial warfare?
 
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Fighter jet diplomacy. Also now they have essentially a fighter equal to some of the best flankers on the planet. And though cumbersome as logistics and strategy/tactics go it also means their tools of war cannot be entirely neutralized by one of the few major powers out there. Take for example the rumors that Israel was able to get vital software backdoors to Iranian tor shorad batteries.
 
lancer21 said:
As for Su-35, Egypt has only itself to blame on that one, by giving in to US blackmail to the detriment of their own national security. Su-35 would have given EAF a quantum leap in capability, and if logically followed by a Su-57 buy, propelled as one of the most capable air forces in the world, let alone region, especially when coupled with a J-10/J-35 buy.
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Easy for us to say, but Egypt is a country treading a very narrow path. They're sitting on multiple tickling bombs.
US support can't outweigh worst ones(Gaza), but fighters aren't that important. Also, su-35s situation greatly predates the current emergency.
 
snne said:
The current posture of the People's Liberation Army is quite unrecognizable from that of the PLA from 2000s-10s. Imagine that you're the PLA-AF/-NAF of that time period and you are in a necessity to seriously modernize your pitiful air force.

The most modern jets that you can procure are the J-10 that had only recently become available and J-11s (11A is a locally assembled Su-27SK and 11B is a then-recently developed wholly Chinese jet with passable Chinese avionics and engines). You have many hundreds of J-7s&J-8II/Bs to replace and you face just as numerous F-16s, F-15s, F-18s, F-22s and soon F-35s.

Your industrial base can produce no more than 100 70-80(?) J-10 and J-11 annually, would you reserve some of those production slots for some export customer or would you try to quickly catch up to your adversaries' level as a newcomer to the modern era aerial warfare?
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It does makes some sense, however looking a bit on the www it does seem that China was offering the J-10A for export at various airshows in the 2010s, so they must have been prepared to fulfill export orders if there were any.

Anyway, according to recent rumours, Sudan might be one of the 3 J-10CE customers said to have or be ordering the jet.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1893624499020407292
View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1893624499020407292
 
lancer21 said:
It does makes some sense, however looking a bit on the www it does seem that China was offering the J-10A for export at various airshows in the 2010s, so they must have been prepared to fulfill export orders if there were any.

Anyway, according to recent rumours, Sudan might be one of the 3 J-10CE customers said to have or be ordering the jet.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1893624499020407292
View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1893624499020407292
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One big hurdle during the J-10A era is the engine dependency on Russia. Even if Russia is cooperative to the export there is significant red tape involved in exporting the engine.
 
lancer21 said:
It does makes some sense, however looking a bit on the www it does seem that China was offering the J-10A for export at various airshows in the 2010s, so they must have been prepared to fulfill export orders if there were any.

Anyway, according to recent rumours, Sudan might be one of the 3 J-10CE customers said to have or be ordering the jet.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1893624499020407292
View: https://x.com/Hurin92/status/1893624499020407292
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There's a fine line between technically enabling it and actively supporting or promoting it. As I said, the PLA hadn't completed its modernization yet, and it still hasn't; the difference to back then lies in the advancements in available technology that come with the passage of time.
 
siegecrossbow said:
One big hurdle during the J-10A era is the engine dependency on Russia. Even if Russia is cooperative to the export there is significant red tape involved in exporting the engine.
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Yes it could have been an issue, on the other hand the JF-17/RD-93 combination managed those potential hurdles pretty well, since apart from Pakistan there are several export customers who bought or about to buy the plane. So i don't see why the same couldn't have applied to J-10A/AL-31FN combination imo. Obviously the russians would have much preferred to sell their own equivalent instead (MiG-29 family), but they would have still made money on the engine if someone was determined to get J-10As.
 
lancer21 said:
Yes it could have been an issue, on the other hand the JF-17/RD-93 combination managed those potential hurdles pretty well, since apart from Pakistan there are several export customers who bought or about to buy the plane. So i don't see why the same couldn't have applied to J-10A/AL-31FN combination imo. Obviously the russians would have much preferred to sell their own equivalent instead (MiG-29 family), but they would have still made money on the engine if someone was determined to get J-10As.
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10A: Pulse Doppler (1473) + AL-31
B: PESA + DSI + AL-31
C: AESA + DSI + WS-10
After 2020, the J-10A lacks market competitiveness
 
Dolgoth Sepk said:
10A: Pulse Doppler (1473) + AL-31
B: PESA + DSI + AL-31
C: AESA + DSI + WS-10
After 2020, the J-10A lacks market competitiveness
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Minor correction ... not all J-10C have the WS-10B engine. Somewhen within Batch 04 they changes from AL-21FN Series 3 to WS-10B:

cn. 0418 with AL-31FN

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cn. 042X with WS-10B

1740402045069.png
 
Deino said:
Minor correction ... not all J-10C have the WS-10B engine. Somewhen within Batch 04 they changes from AL-21FN Series 3 to WS-10B:
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1740403079060.jpeg
J-10CY wiht AL31
cn. 0418 with AL-31FN & cn. 042X with WS-10B means that replacement can be carried out within the same production batch.

Back to military procurement., it's not a good idea to have to talk to Russia about an AL31 sales license additionally in order to buy J-10Cs.
 
If I were a president of country looking for a new fighter for my Air Force I would not be bothered buying a J-10CE, instead I would play the waiting game until they definitely had the WS-10B engine.
 
Pakistan apparently evaluated the J-10A sometime in the 2000s but for various reasons went with the F-16 block 52.

The Thai Air Force chief apparently inspected the then under construction J-10 prototype in 1997 and sat in the cockpit. They were interested but I can’t find anything else on the subject.

North Korea is reported to have been interested sometime before 2012 but this was apparently shut down by Hu Jintao.
 
Dolgoth Sepk said:
View attachment 760669
J-10CY wiht AL31
cn. 0418 with AL-31FN & cn. 042X with WS-10B means that replacement can be carried out within the same production batch.
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Indeed, the few Batch 07 J-10CY are an exception and indeed a hint that there is something like a "common" engine bay that can fit both.


Dolgoth Sepk said:
Back to military procurement., it's not a good idea to have to talk to Russia about an AL31 sales license additionally in order to buy J-10Cs.
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Pardon?? This is something I don't understand! Who is ever considering an AL-31 sales licence? Surely not China for the PLAAF!

By the way, most interesting - especially in regard to assess how likely any future export sales are, would be to know, if there were finally any J-10Cs seen at the Guizhou / GAIC facility or if there are still any at CAC?

@SOC
 
Deino said:
Indeed, the few Batch 07 J-10CY are an exception and indeed a hint that there is something like a "common" engine bay that can fit both.




Pardon?? This is something I don't understand! Who is ever considering an AL-31 sales licence? Surely not China for the PLAAF!

By the way, most interesting - especially in regard to assess how likely any future export sales are, would be to know, if there were finally any J-10Cs seen at the Guizhou / GAIC facility or if there are still any at CAC?

@SOC
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If J-10S can be retrofitted with WS-10 surely J-10CY can as well.
 
Anduriel said:
AL-31 unlikely, but maybe interested in selling izd 177.
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But well, why should anyone buy a J-10C, which si now a more than mature system in PLAAF service without the WS-10 and instead opt for a yet unproved Russian design?

This makes no sense at all unless Russia would be so much desperate to purchase J-10 fighters. ;)
 
FighterJock said:
If I were a president of country looking for a new fighter for my Air Force I would not be bothered buying a J-10CE, instead I would play the waiting game until they definitely had the WS-10B engine.
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J-10C/CE production in the last few years (a half decade now) have all been with WS-10s.

There are J-10Cs that were produced during the 2010s that still run on Al-31s because at the time they were still using Al-31s, but the use of WS-10s on the J-10C/CE (and even re engined J-10A/AS) is now a well known quantity.

Pakistani J-10CEs/CPs are of course powered by WS-10s because, why wouldn't they be...
 

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