German 17.7 ton Bomb

[Ekrub]

Hey everyone,

I've seen numerous forums online discuss a supposed 17.7 ton bomb that was developed and tested by Germany during WW2. They say one was dropped by an Me 323, leading to the accidental destruction of that aircraft during the test. Does anyone have any additional information on the topic? Is it real? Was there a name for it? Does anyone have to have a photo/diagram/sketch of it?

I've seen it said in other forums that it is mentioned in the book: "Hitler's Luftwaffe" (1990) Tony Wood and Bill Gunston. I really don't know much about that though or how extensively or reliably it's covered in there.



This is my first post here (I've been lurking the forums for a few years though). So, please take it easy on me if I screwed something up here. Thanks!

 

[Feesh]

So i got curious about it and it's indeed referenced on page 239 of Hitler's Luftwaffe

To quote:

''The Me 323 specially modified for the test, was assisted off the ground by an He 111Z tug. Shortly before letting the monster bomb go, the Gigant's rear fuselage began to break. The crew managed to release the bomb, but the giant aircraft went into an uncontrollable dive and crashed. It was subsequently revealed that the structure had been weakened by bullet strikes from US fighters which strafed the test field a few days earlier.''

Also Friedrich George in his book "The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine" Mentioned the bomb being carried under the right wing. However i have not read this book.

Also David Donald ended every entry/paragraph about the me-323 with

It's likely that this is just another myth considering there is not alot of information about it and it would be a wasteful concept.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Technically possible, militarily impracticable, except for an enemy already defeated and without anti-aircraft defense, a single fighter would be enough to shoot down that mammoth.

 

[Arjen]

I am not sure that the Me 323 would be able to lift 17,700 kg.

 

[Arjen]

In Die deutsche Luftfahrt 17 - Willy Messerschmitt - Pionier der Luftfahrt und des Leichtbaues by Ebert/Kaiser/Peters, Bernard & Graefe 1992, the authors mention Me 321 gliders would carry up to 27,000 kg of cargo. A Me 323 could lift approximately 10,000 kg of cargo on its own, hence assistance from a He 111Z to take off?

Technically possible, militarily impracticable, except for an enemy already defeated and without anti-aircraft defense, a single fighter would be enough to shoot down that mammoth.

Of no use to Germany in 1944 then.

 

[1635yankee]

So i got curious about it and it's indeed referenced on page 239 of Hitler's Luftwaffe

To quote:

''The Me 323 specially modified for the test, was assisted off the ground by an He 111Z tug. Shortly before letting the monster bomb go, the Gigant's rear fuselage began to break. The crew managed to release the bomb, but the giant aircraft went into an uncontrollable dive and crashed. It was subsequently revealed that the structure had been weakened by bullet strikes from US fighters which strafed the test field a few days earlier.''

Also Friedrich George in his book "The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine" Mentioned the bomb being carried under the right wing. However i have not read this book.

Also David Donald ended every entry/paragraph about the me-323 withView attachment 757459

It's likely that this is just another myth considering there is not alot of information about it and it would be a wasteful concept.

I wouldn't be surprised if some fanboi invented it to show the nazis could make everything bigger. After all, the Allies had Grand Slam and its more petite sibling, Tallboy. Obviously, the Germans must have had something better.

 

[airman]

Existed proposed E version with 6 BMW-801 for Me 323. I haven't seen any mention of Twin Me-323

So i got curious about it and it's indeed referenced on page 239 of Hitler's Luftwaffe

To quote:

''The Me 323 specially modified for the test, was assisted off the ground by an He 111Z tug. Shortly before letting the monster bomb go, the Gigant's rear fuselage began to break. The crew managed to release the bomb, but the giant aircraft went into an uncontrollable dive and crashed. It was subsequently revealed that the structure had been weakened by bullet strikes from US fighters which strafed the test field a few days earlier.''

Also Friedrich George in his book "The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine" Mentioned the bomb being carried under the right wing. However i have not read this book.

Also David Donald ended every entry/paragraph about the me-323 withView attachment 757459

It's likely that this is just another myth considering there is not alot of information about it and it would be a wasteful concept.

seems be an other what if

 

[Ekrub]

I wouldn't be surprised if some fanboi invented it to show the nazis could make everything bigger. After all, the Allies had Grand Slam and its more petite sibling, Tallboy. Obviously, the Germans must have had something better.

Don't forget the T-12 Cloudmaker!

 

[Antonio]

Friedrich George is notable for his "Luftwaffe Miracle Weapons books" which had been recently reedited:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hitlers-Miracle-Weapons-Luftwaffe-Kriegsmarine/dp/1804517267

The contents are pure intoxication. Plain personal inventions like:

describing a wide range of nuclear weapons well beyond of human technology in 1945

or fakes like some photos of a Myasishchev M-4 model, with an Me 323 on top, painted on Luftwaffe colors and markings presented as an advanced Amerika Bomber unbuilt project.
I already posted this pictures here some time ago.

​

 

[boxkite]

I can only underline @Antonio's assessment: Anyone who is serious about aviation should stay away from the George books (or go to other self-explanatory forums, which are currently experiencing - no wonder - a boom ).

 

[moin1900]

Maybe related?
Me 262 fuselage drop test.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/twin-engined-bf-109.9028/post-236807

 

[robunos]

This was also mentioned in the 1970 edition of William Green's 'Warplanes of the Third Reich', page 655.



cheers,
Robin.

 

[Adler]

There seems to be conflicting information on this topic with whether a single, modified Me 323 was used or a twin variant. There's many sources and forums that claim it was the Zwilling variant, however none have any good references. "Hitler's Luftwaffe" and "Warplanes of the Third Reich" books seem to be the only ones to mention the modified single fuselage Me 323 carrying the bomb. Friedrich George I would not trust, as his books tend to be rather, should I say conspiratorial. For instance, he talks about advanced nuclear weapon projects, nuclear-powered aircraft and a few other all too unrealistic proposals.

 

[Ravinoff]

Ran across this claim a while back, all the citations seem to lead back to the Wood and Gunston book, and I just can't get my head around how it'd be possible physically. And I have to wonder if the 323Z is documented anywhere, it sounds like some Luft '46 "please Herr Fuhrer don't send me to the Ostfront" stuff, or at best a misinterpretation of the He 111Z. But to get back on the subject of the 17,700kg bomb - the highest number I see for payload on a 323 is 12,000kg with Walter HWK 109-500 RATO pods installed. The Me 321 glider lists at 20,000kgs, pulled by three Bf 110s or an He 111Z and possibly using RATO as well, so you might conceivably get a Me 323D airborne with 17,700kgs of payload with a tow plane and rocket assistance.

The problem I've got is how on god's green planet you physically carry a bomb that size and drop it from an Me 323. One post upthread says it was carried under the wing, but...no, absolutely not. Calling that aerodynamically improbable is an understatement. With that much weight off-center I'd imagine the thing would roll over before getting off the ground. Can't drop it out the back like a MOAB or a BLU-82 either, because the Messerschmidt is a front-loading design with a nose that swings open. Nothing else the Germans had could hope to carry that kind of payload either, so unless the idea was to just pack a 323 full of as much explosive as possible and fly it into a target, I don't see how this idea is plausible at all.

Thanks for the link to Georg's books though, been wanting to get my hands on those for a while now for entertainment purposes but they were out of print/not available.

 

[Ravinoff]

Slightly late update: got the Georg books. He cites the 1970 Warplanes of the Third Reich book mentioned further up by robunos, which at this point I'm thinking is the original source of this whole thing. Georg calls it a 20-tonne bomb, but eh, rounding. He mentions it as possibly being intended for the Ju 290 E, which itself is a fairly obscure conceptual night bomber version of the 290 (not the Ju 390 Amerikabomber candidate) and that it may have been similar to the SA 4000 demolition bomb, which has a couple threads on here if you search it.

As for its connection with the Me 323: according to Georg (citing a 1998 letter from a Hans-Peter Dabroski), in 1943 a series of tests involving dropping weighted Me 262 fuselages from an Me 323 was carried out at Lake Constance and the Ammersee for aerodynamics and parachute research. That much is poorly-documented, but there are photos of it (attached), so I can believe it's just a wartime records issue.

Next to no information on the 17.7-ton bomb is provided or available, it seems, but the basic story is the same regarding the carrier aircraft breaking up in flight. Georg speculates that it's possible the blast destroyed the carrier 323 (without clarifying whether or not he believes it was a nuclear device) because...well, that's one hell of a bomb and the Me 323 flew neither fast or high, without a parachute-retarded drop it's plausible that it may have been damaged by the bomb explosion. In what I assume is an update for this edition, there's a bit more: the test was apparently carried out in the second half of July 1944 at the Karlshagen test site near Peenemünde. Supposedly a single Me 323 Zwilling/Doppelgigant was built specifically to test the 17.7 bomb, but it was damaged during an Allied air raid on the area (possibly July 18, 1944), causing the subsequent in-flight breakup. If the 323Z was built, it was a one-off and no photos or documentation of it have been found.

 

[Graham1973]

Ravinoff. I think you may have solved the mystery, the possibility that someone confused the fusilage drop tests with a bomb drop test, particularly in a situation where documentation is scarce is pretty high. The logical next step would be to try and figure out what William Green was looking at when he compiled his book as he appears to be 'patient zero' for this story.

 

[Adler]

Slightly late update: got the Georg books. He cites the 1970 Warplanes of the Third Reich book mentioned further up by robunos, which at this point I'm thinking is the original source of this whole thing. Georg calls it a 20-tonne bomb, but eh, rounding. He mentions it as possibly being intended for the Ju 290 E, which itself is a fairly obscure conceptual night bomber version of the 290 (not the Ju 390 Amerikabomber candidate) and that it may have been similar to the SA 4000 demolition bomb, which has a couple threads on here if you search it.

As for its connection with the Me 323: according to Georg (citing a 1998 letter from a Hans-Peter Dabroski), in 1943 a series of tests involving dropping weighted Me 262 fuselages from an Me 323 was carried out at Lake Constance and the Ammersee for aerodynamics and parachute research. That much is poorly-documented, but there are photos of it (attached), so I can believe it's just a wartime records issue.

Next to no information on the 17.7-ton bomb is provided or available, it seems, but the basic story is the same regarding the carrier aircraft breaking up in flight. Georg speculates that it's possible the blast destroyed the carrier 323 (without clarifying whether or not he believes it was a nuclear device) because...well, that's one hell of a bomb and the Me 323 flew neither fast or high, without a parachute-retarded drop it's plausible that it may have been damaged by the bomb explosion. In what I assume is an update for this edition, there's a bit more: the test was apparently carried out in the second half of July 1944 at the Karlshagen test site near Peenemünde. Supposedly a single Me 323 Zwilling/Doppelgigant was built specifically to test the 17.7 bomb, but it was damaged during an Allied air raid on the area (possibly July 18, 1944), causing the subsequent in-flight breakup. If the 323Z was built, it was a one-off and no photos or documentation of it have been found.
View attachment 766460View attachment 766461View attachment 766462

Can't thank you enough! I believe the reason for the mid-air breakup was the weakening of the aircraft's structure due to the bombing raid you mentioned, as well the sudden change in load upon the release of the weapon. Considering the aircraft was of a twin fuselage configuration, the bomb would have likely been placed under the central wing spar, and as we know from history, the wings of the "Giant" were rugged and weak. Furthermore the bomb was most likely a dummy, meant to simulate the weight of the actual explosive, and thereby never went off. Now do you happen to have a diagram of the Ju 290E, for I have been unable to find one on the web nor in the books.

 

[Adler]

Ravinoff. I think you may have solved the mystery, the possibility that someone confused the fusilage drop tests with a bomb drop test, particularly in a situation where documentation is scarce is pretty high. The logical next step would be to try and figure out what William Green was looking at when he compiled his book as he appears to be 'patient zero' for this story.

Would have to disagree. The fuselage tests are very well documented, and could have been performed on standard Me 323s with very little modifications. On the contrary, the 17.7 ton bomb supposedly had a heavily modified, or even a twin fuselage Me 323 as a carrier. These two are too distinct to be confused for one another.

 

[Ravinoff]

Can't thank you enough! I believe the reason for the mid-air breakup was the weakening of the aircraft's structure due to the bombing raid you mentioned, as well the sudden change in load upon the release of the weapon. Considering the aircraft was of a twin fuselage configuration, the bomb would have likely been placed under the central wing spar, and as we know from history, the wings of the "Giant" were rugged and weak. Furthermore the bomb was most likely a dummy, meant to simulate the weight of the actual explosive, and thereby never went off. Now do you happen to have a diagram of the Ju 290E, for I have been unable to find one on the web nor in the books.

Check out this thread for the 290E, most information I can find on it anywhere.

 

[Adler]

Since no specifications or blueprints of the Me 323Z carrier survive, I attempted to estimate the dimensions. We do know that the aircraft was converted in the summer or late spring of 1944, thus the basis was likely the Me 323E-1 variant. Given that it had 9 engines in total, the airframes were likely connected with a custom central wing where the 2nd/5th engines would be on the regular aircraft. The wingspan of a Me 323E-1 is 55.2 meters, while the length from the wingtip to the middle engine on the opposite wing is approximately 36.3 meters. Assuming the 323Z did have such a configuration, its wingspan would have been about 72.6 meters, making it the largest aircraft at the time in terms of wingspan. It would also mean there most likely would have been a joint horizontal stabilizer.

 

[Ravinoff]

The plot thickens: Last Talons of the Eagle: Secret Nazi Technology Which Could Have Changed the Course of World War II by Gary Hyland and Anton Gill is the source for Georg's claim about the Me 323Z, and it's no clearer than anything else in this mess. Via archive.org I accessed the relevant chapter, and even the authors seem a bit puzzled about this. They have a single 323Z "apparently making a test flight in July 1944" as part of a project for a 17,700kg bomb at the Karlshagen test facility, and breaking up in flight due to damage from being strafed by an Allied raid in the days before the test. But in their version, the bomb was a dummy version, not a live test!

 

[Adler]

The plot thickens: Last Talons of the Eagle: Secret Nazi Technology Which Could Have Changed the Course of World War II by Gary Hyland and Anton Gill is the source for Georg's claim about the Me 323Z, and it's no clearer than anything else in this mess. Via archive.org I accessed the relevant chapter, and even the authors seem a bit puzzled about this. They have a single 323Z "apparently making a test flight in July 1944" as part of a project for a 17,700kg bomb at the Karlshagen test facility, and breaking up in flight due to damage from being strafed by an Allied raid in the days before the test. But in their version, the bomb was a dummy version, not a live test!

Thank you, I will check that book whenever I get the chance. The information you mentioned does not contradict what we currently know; the bomb was never actually constructed, but a 17.7 tonne dummy was deployed from a Me 323 which disintegrated shortly after due to the sudden weight change and damage from an allied air raid. We know that the test occurred on the 18th of July at Peenemünde, and there was indeed a bombing raid there on the same day. Given the various sources and accuracy regarding surrounding events, we can conclude with a high degree of confidence that the 17.7 tonne bomb project was real. The main question here is whether it was deployed from the Me 323Z or a modified Me 323E-1 with an assistance of a Heinkel He 111Z.

 

[Adler]

Extract from "Last Talons of the Eagle", page 119.

This is the only section in the book concerning the Me 323Z, and seemingly the origin of all the information regarding it found on the web. The book refers to the project as a "drawing board "special"", and affirms that there is no evidence for its existence. Important to note that "Last Talons of the Eagle" as well as other works by Gary Hyland overexaggerate Nazi technological advancements and touch upon Nazi mysticism and Ufology. While we can not say for certain that the Me 323Z was never on the drawing board, this seems like sufficient evidence to say it was never flown nor built.

This puts an end to the Me 323Z theory, thus assuming the bomb existed, it would have been carried by the He 111Z and Me 323E combination as mentioned previously.