It seems that at depth, Spearfish loses speed, while Mk 48 loses endurance.

Looks like 12.5nm at 80 knots (the 14 mile figure is statute miles), but that checks out. The corresponding figure for a Russian 65-76 torpedo, which can do 50km at 50 knots, is 27,300 yards. A more complete analysis would involve looking at no-escape zones, of course.
I think they double converted. 26km converts to 14nm. Likely they took a 14nm figure, thought is was miles and converted it to nm again. A Type 65 is several times the size (10,000lb vs 4,000lb), so not directly comparable.

Interestingly, the crossover point between the two settings for Spearfish is 45 knots. Above that speed, the low-speed setting gives a longer engagement range; above it, the high-speed setting. The existence of such an extreme high-speed setting implies that the Royal Navy was concerned about targets (i.e. submarines) moving very quickly indeed. For the Mark 48, the corresponding speed is 21 knots.

On a slightly more absurd note, if you can get a 30 degree up angle on a Spearfish and broach the surface, it might reach an altitude of 70 feet or so. That's high enough to offer a theoretical anti-helicopter capability. Totally impractical, of course. But amusing to think about.
:D I guess that would stop the commander having to get out on deck with a MANPADS like on The Wolf's Call.
 
Thanks, everyone!

On a slightly more absurd note, if you can get a 30 degree up angle on a Spearfish and broach the surface, it might reach an altitude of 70 feet or so. That's high enough to offer a theoretical anti-helicopter capability. Totally impractical, of course. But amusing to think about.
The Torpedo Museum at Keyport, WA has a great picture of a torpedo that had decided that the hovering helicopter was a good target and is coming out of the water about double the torpedo's length. It's been long enough now since I've been there that I don't remember if that was a Mk46 or a Mk48.
 
If you believe the Mk 48 needs to be inside 5,400 yards to kill a SEAWOLF - and that implies some rather implausible performance - then a Spearfish can do it at 10,000 yards. Or 24,000 yards if you believe the 80 knots/60,000 miles figure. Spearfish is good, but it's not that good.
Rumors say ~45knots and very quick acceleration to that speed. 57khp and a propulsor that basically doesn't cavitate so you don't lose any of that hp to bubles.
 
Steel has been cut for the first Canadian Type 26 derivative, now called the River-class destroyer. There are some updates from the original design for the Canadian navy. Here's an overview.


The River-class share the British-designed hull form and propulsion of the Type 26 but almost entirely different weapons, sensors and combat system have been selected by the Canadians. At its heart, fighting capability is based on the US AEGIS Combat Management System. [...] The selection of SPY-7 will allow the ships to integrate with the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) which coordinates continent-wide air surveillance. CEC will also provide seamless integration with USN operations – an important force multiplier that the RN has aspired to in the past but has been unable to fund.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2024-07-07 at 11.35.09 AM.png
    Screenshot 2024-07-07 at 11.35.09 AM.png
    1 MB · Views: 125
Last edited:
MoD has issued a request for expressions of interest for the Type 26 for a Mk 41 strike length cell rocket launched rapid reaction light or very light torpedo carrier with a minimum range exceeding that of the maximum range of heavy torpedoes (similar to the ASROC). It said it will also consider drone based systems.
It occurs to me that last year's sudden RN interest in VL ASROC (or equivalents) makes a lot more sense as a departure from previous thinking if Type 92 was already a concept - it's a lot easier to deploy your ASW solution at range from a VLS silo than having to produce an automated system to load Proteus with Sting Ray and all the other complications that flying an unmanned ASW helicopter from an unmanned ASW sloop would bring.
 
It occurs to me that last year's sudden RN interest in VL ASROC (or equivalents) makes a lot more sense as a departure from previous thinking if Type 92 was already a concept - it's a lot easier to deploy your ASW solution at range from a VLS silo than having to produce an automated system to load Proteus with Sting Ray and all the other complications that flying an unmanned ASW helicopter from an unmanned ASW sloop would bring.
Wonder if the Japanese or Koreans are going to bid... Their ASROC-equivalents are significantly better than the USN version.
 
It occurs to me that last year's sudden RN interest in VL ASROC (or equivalents) makes a lot more sense as a departure from previous thinking if Type 92 was already a concept - it's a lot easier to deploy your ASW solution at range from a VLS silo
Just to clarify that I meant deploying VL ASROC on Type 92, not just Type 26. All the VL ASROC type systems have a fairly anaemic range - between 12 and 19 miles - so a Type 26 acting as an off-board magazine extension for Type 92 would tie them together in a way that wouldn't be practical, better to use the Type 26's Wildcat for that. But a Type 92 with its own VLS would be able to engage targets it detects without the complexity of an unmanned helo or the myopic range of firing torpedoes over the side.
 
It's looking increasingly likely that T26 will be chosen for the Royal Norwegian Navy...apart from the fact it pretty much is exactly what they're looking for..

View: https://x.com/Drecas_2000/status/1893702250024902926


 
Among the new generation of frigates (or are these closer to destroyers? its all getting blurred now..)..
the Type 26 certainly seems to be very popular! perhaps more so than the cheaper Type 31?
 
Among the new generation of frigates (or are these closer to destroyers? its all getting blurred now..)..
the Type 26 certainly seems to be very popular! perhaps more so than the cheaper Type 31?

I'm not sure Type 26 will get any other orders beyond the UK, Canada, Australia and Norway. It's an exceptionally capable vessel with the associated price tag. Any other nations with the budget to buy and operate tend to have their own shipbuilding industries to look after.

Type 26 appears to be very well positioned for the Norwegian order as their key requirements are:

1- ASW oriented Frigate - T26 nails this one....it will come in at No.1 in any scoring...
2 - From a 'close ally' - Again T26 will score the highest on this...
3 - Available from 2029 from existing production - Possible, the RN might have to give up a slot or 2...but they'd do it for the sale.

Add in all the other softer factors....RN will be doing ASW up north with the Norwegians so interoperability is key, nearby support infrastructure (T26 in class of its own there as well), AW101 in Norwegian service and is the worlds best ASW helo, Stingray torps, P-8 interoperability and training....list goes on an on...

The other contenders; ASWF, FTI, F126 and Constellation Class (in order of likelihood from most to least) all have their own advantages, but none have them to the degree that T26 does.

T31 I suspect will get a couple more orders in due course. RN might be able to squeeze a few more in as T31 or to a modified T32 design (which if BAE lands the Norwegian order would make sense for Babcock Rosyth). RNZN might be in play in the future as well.
 
It's looking increasingly likely that T26 will be chosen for the Royal Norwegian Navy...apart from the fact it pretty much is exactly what they're looking for..

View: https://x.com/Drecas_2000/status/1893702250024902926


Careful there, the Norwegian MOD is negotiating with several Helo manufacturers and they recently contracted a (first?) batch of Seahawks.
 
The Norwegian MH-60s are intended as replacements for the Coast Guard Lynx (via a cancelled NH-90 order). From a March 2023 ESD article:-

"The Norwegian MoD stated that the six MH-70Rs would “initially be used by the Coast Guard, but they will also be prepared to be equipped for anti-submarine operations”. Given the smaller fleet compared to the original NH90 buy, Norwegian Defence Minister Bjorn Arild Gram indicated that some of the original mission set could be addressed by unmanned aerial vehicles."

SO FFBNW ASW equipment? Intended for operation from the 3 Jan Mayen class OPV.

Since 2018 / 19 the Royal Norwegian Air Force has been using the AW101 in the SAR/Utility role. 16 were ordered with one damaged (lost?) in an accident. So plenty of knowledge of the type. It is the Air Force that operates the helicopters on behalf of other services.

Following the withdrawal of the NH-90 in 2022 from both Navy & CG vessels the Fridtjof Nansen frigates seem to be without helicopters, and yet the MH-60Rs are intended for the CG.

Are the flight decks of the OPV too small for AW101?
 
Folded length / width / height
AW101 - 15.75m / 5.2m / 5.2m
NH90 - 13.64m / 3.2m / 4.2m
MH-60R - 12.51m / 3.37m / 3.94m

If hangar dimensions were the issue, it becomes easy to see why the MH-60R was selected over the AW101.

But the Type 26 frigate hangar is sized from the outset for Merlin / AW101.
 
I'm not sure Type 26 will get any other orders beyond the UK, Canada, Australia and Norway. It's an exceptionally capable vessel with the associated price tag. Any other nations with the budget to buy and operate tend to have their own shipbuilding industries to look after.

Type 26 appears to be very well positioned for the Norwegian order as their key requirements are:

1- ASW oriented Frigate - T26 nails this one....it will come in at No.1 in any scoring...
2 - From a 'close ally' - Again T26 will score the highest on this...
3 - Available from 2029 from existing production - Possible, the RN might have to give up a slot or 2...but they'd do it for the sale.

Add in all the other softer factors....RN will be doing ASW up north with the Norwegians so interoperability is key, nearby support infrastructure (T26 in class of its own there as well), AW101 in Norwegian service and is the worlds best ASW helo, Stingray torps, P-8 interoperability and training....list goes on an on...

The other contenders; ASWF, FTI, F126 and Constellation Class (in order of likelihood from most to least) all have their own advantages, but none have them to the degree that T26 does.
If i remember it right F-127 and not F-126 is offered by germany which has not known ASW capabilitys / hard to compare to any ship
 
BAE showing off T26 model in Norway with 16 NSM mounted...

View: https://x.com/Gabriel64869839/status/1897985447646593427


Norwegian site on Frigate candidates...

 
The other contenders; ASWF, FTI, F126 and Constellation Class (in order of likelihood from most to least) all have their own advantages, but none have them to the degree that T26 does.
For their advantages(and ultimately ¬more or less similar ASW capability), T26 are very expensive. This is a big and very, very expensive hull.
ASWF and especially FTI are substantially better on that front, and even larger F126 isn't really worse.
 
For their advantages(and ultimately ¬more or less similar ASW capability), T26 are very expensive. This is a big and very, very expensive hull.
ASWF and especially FTI are substantially better on that front, and even larger F126 isn't really worse.

I don't think any other vessel in the competition, or in production anywhere, will approach T26 ASW capability. Particularly if it has Sonar 2087 and Merlin. Captas 4 is not the same...

Cost wise the out-turn of a T26 is c£800m. That was the last figure seen. And thats comparable to the FTI that Greece is getting, and cheaper than ASWF (and thats before the cost for those inevitably climbs dramatically during build).
 
Cost wise the out-turn of a T26 is c£800m. That was the last figure seen. And thats comparable to the FTI that Greece is getting, and cheaper than ASWF (and thats before the cost for those inevitably climbs dramatically during build).
Yes, but it's for a very moderate radar and aaw weapon suit(almost modern Udaloy II).
Plus T26 price comes with some significant reuse of assets.
Hunter and River don't get those benefits, and in turn are massively expensive.

FDI has full integrated mast, ASWF, distributed Dual band system even. And both run MRSAM capabilities.

I.e. T26 hull is as expensive as it is advanced. And while UK has T45s, for country like Norway it's a single stop solution.
 
Last edited:
Yes, but it's for a very moderate radar and aaw weapon suit(almost modern Udaloy II).
Plus T26 price comes with some significant reuse of assets.
Hunter and River don't get those benefits, and in turn are massively expensive.

FDI has full integrated mast, ASWF, distribute Dual band system even. And both run MRSAM capabilities.

I.e. T26 hull is as expensive as it is advanced. And while UK has T45s, for country like Norway it's a single stop solution.
Its quite likely that Norway will use SM or atleast ESSM in the MK.41 for more advanced AA capabilitys which dont need mutch work so mostly CMS und VLS integration. Considering that 3SM (FC/ASW) alternative is still needs a long time
 
At the moment Norway is likely to be asking if CAMM and it's variants can integrated to their systems. For which the answer should be "if it's digital then yes"
 
Integration with Mk41 seems won't be a problem after gaining experience from Aussies and Canadians, with the CAMM-ER and MR variants fitting the requirement for longer range air defence.
 
Integration with Mk41 seems won't be a problem after gaining experience from Aussies and Canadians, with the CAMM-ER and MR variants fitting the requirement for longer range air defence.

This will all happen before those are built.

If you're Norway though....do you actually want to be dependent on ESSM or SM2 anyway? Times are changing rather fast...

I've said it many times that I think Mk.41 is a mistake for T26....got a feeIing will be proved more right than I thought...
 
This will all happen before those are built.

If you're Norway though....do you actually want to be dependent on ESSM or SM2 anyway? Times are changing rather fast...

I've said it many times that I think Mk.41 is a mistake for T26....got a feeIing will be proved more right than I thought...
Yeah, I can't help but wonder what missiles will go on the new Dutch AAW "frigates". Because right now the SM and ESSM series suddenly don't seem so hot, and we've already bought Barak for the MSS...
 
Yeah, I can't help but wonder what missiles will go on the new Dutch AAW "frigates". Because right now the SM and ESSM series suddenly don't seem so hot, and we've already bought Barak for the MSS...

Been saying for years that Mk.41 made zero sense for the RN...

One of the reasons why European missiles have struggled getting sales on the continent is integration with Mk.41, AEGIS and other CMS from the US.....we might be seeing that change soon....does anyone want to be locked in to the US CMS/Radar/Missile eco-system for the next 40 years...
 
Yeah, I can't help but wonder what missiles will go on the new Dutch AAW "frigates". Because right now the SM and ESSM series suddenly don't seem so hot, and we've already bought Barak for the MSS...
If they chose to switch to Barak then its gonna be interresting as they are quite large with there VLS and you don't have quad packs. I would assume thats around ~32 missiles could maybe replace the MK.41 but thats just an guess
 
Absolutely unrealistic.
US ecosystem, at worst, shown that under certain circumstances it can become not that much better than other western ones. Which it always could, and one should have small bird's memory to not know about it.

Chosing weak ones by default is not that much of a solution.
 
don't think any other vessel in the competition, or in production anywhere, will approach T26 ASW capability. Particularly if it has Sonar 2087 and Merlin. Captas 4 is not the same...
What makes you say that? My understanding was that Sonar 2087 and Captas 4 share the same hardware, so presumably any differences would be software related, eg. tweaks to signal processing algorithms, different national signature libraries of course etc?

T26 also offers by far the worst air defense capability of all the candidates, with a single rotating radar that is unimpressive in both range and refresh rate (30 rpm). Against modern missile threats that should be a dealbreaker, especially for the Norwegians who are coming from SPY-1F and are therefore unlikely to adopt a myopic ASW-only focus.

Fixing T26’s unbalanced design is a massive undertaking, as the Canadians and Australians discovered, which would add years to the calendar, cost hundreds of millions (or more), and eliminate a lot of the commonality that Norway is seeking with European navies. MK41 is just the tip of the iceberg, they would also need a new radar and sensor mast, changes to the CMS, Aegis fire control loop if looking to fire Standard missiles etc. The Canadians thought they’d have the freedom to pick and choose between US and European systems, and are belatedly realizing that to get US long range missiles they are now locked into the Aegis baseline (no CAAM integration, no Canadian CMS, no European decoys etc)… which is why the Dutch are walking away from US missiles and Norway probably will be giving it some thought too.
 
Last edited:
What makes you say that? My understanding was that Sonar 2087 and Captas 4 share the same hardware, so presumably any differences would be software related, eg. tweaks to signal processing algorithms, different national signature libraries of course etc?

Sonar 2087 is more than CAPTAS-4....

T26 also offers by far the worst air defense capability of all the candidates, with a single rotating radar that is unimpressive in both range and refresh rate (30 rpm). Against modern missile threats that should be a dealbreaker, especially for the Norwegians who are coming from SPY-1F and are therefore unlikely to adopt a myopic ASW-only focus.

Artisan gets trashed by a lot of people around the antenna...what they don't appear to realise is that the internal components are world class.

The Norgies want an ASW focused vessel...and they want it in the water at a certain point. Plus if they want to upgrade the radar at a later point they can do. They want a vessel in the water more than anything....although given the Fridtjof Nansen Class will be at most 24 years old in 2030, and they can't man them all at present I do wonder if a little slippage can be accommodated...they don't want the expense of an MLU, particularly for SPY-1F, but a lot of the class have had a similar life as Type 45, not as many sea days as you'd expect, even with the loss of the Helge Ingstad.
and eliminate a lot of the commonality that Norway is seeking with European navies.

They want commonality with key allies...for Norway doing ASW in the high north that puts the RN way out in the lead. They're partnered with Germany for 212CD. The only other candidate right now would be the Netherlands, but ASWF is, according to some, already out of the competition.
The Canadians thought they’d have the freedom to pick and choose between US and European systems, and are belatedly realizing that to get US long range missiles they are now locked into the Aegis baseline (no CAAM integration, no Canadian CMS, no European decoys etc)…

We don't know the reasons for the RCN switch from CAMM to RAM at present. But there are European decoys present on the CSC.

which is why the Dutch are walking away from US missiles

The Dutch ASWF specifically uses ESSM, RAM and Mk.54 Torps. ESSM (and perhaps RAM) might have been seen as an advantage at one point, but I'm not sure now...suspect the German's with F126 and F127 will also be looking with some nerves at their choices as well at present...
 


Write your reply...

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom