Rearming the UK: What equipment? and how much?

zen said:
The Deterrent is not a business in the UK.
Despite various claims, it's fundamentally a state run enterprise.
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The state-owned enterprises with massive losses will be privatized and dismantled, following the path of Thatcher's reforms
Although political factors carry more weight
 
zen said:
The Deterrent is not a business in the UK.
Despite various claims, it's fundamentally a state run enterprise.
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Any business that you'd want to contract with to support this, say Ferranti for the guidance systems on both sub and missiles, will ask themselves that question.

What purpose is building an enormous HEU production facility if it's only going to be run for a couple hundred new warheads, costing hundreds of millions each? Not sure what the UK would use for that, but in the US we'd call that a boondoggle. Which is a career-ending pejorative.
 
Dolgoth Sepk said:
In a commercial society, you can’t pull this off.
Business is business.
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Last year, Finland and Sweden joined NATO. Even Switzerland is cooperating more with NATO. Most European nations have considerably raised their defence budget.
Wait and see. All that money is going somewhere. Personnel. Equipment. My guess is that European nuclear weapons will be part of that.
 
Arjen said:
Last year, Finland and Sweden joined NATO. Even Switzerland is cooperating more with NATO. Most European nations have considerably raised their defence budget.
Wait and see. All that money is going somewhere. Personnel. Equipment.
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Wait and see: Heathrow's third runway or Berlin Brandenburg Airport?:D
 
Dutch Delta Works, an ongoing project. When needs must. The Danish straits bridges.
 
Arjen said:
Last year, Finland and Sweden joined NATO. Even Switzerland is cooperating more with NATO. Most European nations have considerably raised their defence budget.
Wait and see. All that money is going somewhere. Personnel. Equipment. My guess is that European nuclear weapons will be part of that.
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I would be more optimistic if I would see fast developments in European multinational projects, like new generation of tanks, airplane, air defense systems and drones. See them finally make some decisions.

You can easily spend money without making the right kind of changes – like buying more F-35s.

I think you are right with the nuclear part, though.
 
I expect much will simply flow into new production facilities and building up stocks.
 
had said:
I would be more optimistic if I would see fast developments in European multinational projects, like new generation of tanks, airplane, air defense systems and drones. See them finally make some decisions.

You can easily spend money without making the right kind of changes – like buying more F-35s.

I think you are right with the nuclear part, though.
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Trump stated that the EU is an organization designed to confront the US, then the US-led NATO is an organization that divides Europe.
Arjen said:
I expect much will simply flow into new production facilities and building up stocks.
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I don't think Europe can determine how many orders it can secure until the power struggle with Trump over who holds greater influence in Europe's enterprises is settled
 
Arjen said:
I expect much will simply flow into new production facilities and building up stocks.
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That makes sense for the short term but if you can’t even make that kind of decisions during this radical change of geopolitics, I don’t have much hope for anything.
 
If Europe truly decides to act independently, it will face two critical challenges: (1) strategic decoupling from the United States, whether dealing with Democrats, Republicans, or Trump; and (2) securing affordable energy sources amid current geopolitical tensions with Russia.
ps,Russia possesses everything old Europe lacks: cheap energy, vast markets, and military power. Thus, NATO remains an organization designed to divide Europe (including Russia), a conclusion that holds logical consistency.

On all China-related issues, you've been acting as America's lackey and parrot. Decoupling from the US? Don't make me laugh!
Stop discussing European independence. You will submit to Trump's rule, and perhaps to Vance in four years

Look what Macron the spineless is saying now: Stop sanctioning Europe, let's unite against China!
There are a few Europeans in this forum just like him, preaching European independence with their words, yet kneeling faster than anyone before the US when it truly matters.

Sorry, these complaints aren’t about you @had
 
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Scott Kenny said:
What purpose is building an enormous HEU production facility if it's only going to be run for a couple hundred new warheads, costing hundreds of millions each?
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UK currently sets a limit of 260 warheads, this is the domestic sustainment figure.
Production for other states would add to this figure.
One might speculate on a like-for-like basis of US warheads. Then we might ask how many that is.....?

Edited in numbers I can find:-
Germany 100
Italy 35
Netherlands 15
Belgium 10-15

To which we can envision Sweden (35?) and Poland (100?)
So roughly 300 additional warheads. Sustainment figure being something between half again or double I forgot the precise figure.

However the peak of US nuclear weapons deployed to Europe was 1971 and some 7,300.

HEU plant maybe justified if for AUKUS as well.
 
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zen said:
5 Years and we can replace under a crash program.
Maybe less with French assistance.
Bus side we've got the industry.
Motor side we'd need major effort on.
Testing is expensive.
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In UK?
With all due respect, for new ICBM, it's some China schedule (figure of speech, no one in modern world probably can manage that fast even from a hot develop line).
Best proposal in 5 years is US-independent gravity bomb.
 
Ainen said:
In UK?
With all due respect, for new ICBM, it's some China schedule (figure of speech, no one in modern world probably can manage that fast even from a hot develop line).
Best proposal in 5 years is US-independent gravity bomb.
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I believe China is also incapable of developing and fielding a new ICBM within five years.
 
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zen said:
UK currently sets a limit of 260 warheads, this is the domestic sustainment figure.
Production for other states would add to this figure.
One might speculate on a like-for-like basis of US warheads. Then we might ask how many that is.....?
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Well, that's US B61s. I'm assuming that most of what's in Europe are the B61-12, and there's ~400-500 of those according to the wiki article on B61s (citing the FAS). Let's add 50% for other subtypes, so ~600-750. Let's also go with the lower number, since IIRC the NATO weapons are counted against the US's totals.

(Total production of B61s is almost 3200, but many of the earlier models have been retired entirely. There are some 550 Mod-3s, 700 Mod-4s, 600 Mod-7 strategic nukes, ~50 Mod-11 heavy earth-penetrating, 400-500 Mod-12s, and "a few dozen" Mod-13s)


Dolgoth Sepk said:
1,500 deployed, 5,000 in stockpile. Specific quantities can be checked based on NEW START, with the order of magnitude confirmed.
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Not the question that was asked, though it was phrased poorly. He's asking about NATO dual-key weapons owned by the US but "loaned" to other countries to deploy if both the host country and the US agreed that the release was authorized. The ones that the UK could conceivably replace.

While I'm thinking about it, if the UK asked for French assistance on their SLBMs, it's possible France would be willing to buy a few UK-built warheads. France has about 500 warheads of all types.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Not the question that was asked, though it was phrased poorly. He's asking about NATO dual-key weapons owned by the US but "loaned" to other countries to deploy if both the host country and the US agreed that the release was authorized. The ones that the UK could conceivably replace.

While I'm thinking about it, if the UK asked for French assistance on their SLBMs, it's possible France would be willing to buy a few UK-built warheads. France has about 500 warheads of all types.
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I misunderstood that the interconnections between the sections were less critical than they actually are.

It sounds like it will evolve into a debate similar to the US district-based economic/employment controversies.How many orders can we secure, and how many jobs will that actually translate into? Blah blah..
 
Wow,

My mistake, i thought this thread was about REARMING THE UK??

i maybe dim, it's been said before, but didn't realise that we're already planing the SA80 Replacement

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain confirms L85A3 rifle replacement still underway

The Ministry of Defence has provided an update on Project GRAYBURN, the initiative to replace the standard-issue L85A3 rifle used by British Armed Forces, in response to a recent parliamentary question.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk
 
bob225 said:
Wow,
LMG
My mistake, i thought this thread was about REARMING THE UK??

i maybe dim, it's been said before, but didn't realise that we're already planing the SA80 Replacement

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain confirms L85A3 rifle replacement still underway

The Ministry of Defence has provided an update on Project GRAYBURN, the initiative to replace the standard-issue L85A3 rifle used by British Armed Forces, in response to a recent parliamentary question.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk
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Been underway for a while. Along with the SF/Marines/Special Purpose rifles. There is also a 5.56 LMG being looked at as Project Troubler (which looks written for the FN Evolys..).

With FN purchasing Manroy and becoming FN UK I suspect a lot of aciton will be heading to their facility, and I suspect Grayburn will need UK manufacture as well....and FN has the Tac-3 as well as an AR platform....
 
ukdefencejournal.org.uk

MoD seeks Civilian Armoured Vehicle support

The Ministry of Defence has launched a procurement process to secure a 'Protected and Modified Civilian Profile Vehicles' support contract, valued up to £14 million.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

The Specialist Vehicles and Uncrewed Land Systems (SVULS) Team within Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S) intends to award a contract to a single supplier to provide in-service support for the MoD’s fleet of Civilian Armoured Vehicles (CAVs). This includes existing vehicles and future procurements under the PaMCPV Framework Agreement.

A PaMCPV is a commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) vehicle modified for protection and operational requirements, with potential integrations of mission systems such as electronic countermeasures (ECM), communication equipment, and weapon mounts. The service contract will cover:

  • Existing protected vehicles, including fully armoured Toyota Land Cruiser (LC) 200 series.
  • Partially protected vehicles, such as the Toyota Land Cruiser 79 series.
  • Future procurements, including light to medium commercial 4x4s, vans, and cars.
The initial contract will support approximately 150 vehicles, with potential expansion to a maximum of 400. The agreement will include spare parts provision, repairs, maintenance, post-design services, technical documentation, and training.
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timmymagic said:
Been underway for a while. Along with the SF/Marines/Special Purpose rifles. There is also a 5.56 LMG being looked at as Project Troubler (which looks written for the FN Evolys..).

With FN purchasing Manroy and becoming FN UK I suspect a lot of aciton will be heading to their facility, and I suspect Grayburn will need UK manufacture as well....and FN has the Tac-3 as well as an AR platform....
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If they want to keep the bullpup manual of arms (and long barrel in short package), the VHS-2 from Croatia seems to be good. It's basically a G36 operating system just like the L85s, just in a better package.

5.56 LMG, I'd want the Knight's LAMG, Jim Sullivan's constant recoil masterpiece. It's intended to be fired from the shoulder more than off the bipod, and has soldier-proof suppressed operation. The whole barrel, gas plug and suppressor or flash hider come off as a single assembly, the barrel with a suppressor on it has a gas port sized for working suppressed.
 
Scott Kenny said:
If they want to keep the bullpup manual of arms (and long barrel in short package), the VHS-2 from Croatia seems to be good. It's basically a G36 operating system just like the L85s, just in a better package.

5.56 LMG, I'd want the Knight's LAMG, Jim Sullivan's constant recoil masterpiece. It's intended to be fired from the shoulder more than off the bipod, and has soldier-proof suppressed operation. The whole barrel, gas plug and suppressor or flash hider come off as a single assembly, the barrel with a suppressor on it has a gas port sized for working suppressed.
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Whats either of those companies UK manufacturing base?

It's zero....and that matters now. Got a suspicion that companies that thought they could supply from their home country are going to get a surprise in the very near future...
 
timmymagic said:
Whats either of those companies UK manufacturing base?

It's zero....and that matters now. Got a suspicion that companies that thought they could supply from their home country are going to get a surprise in the very near future...
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That's what technical data packages are for.

The VHS-2 bid for France included French production. Which reminds me, I still want one (Springfield Hellion rifle in the USA).
 
Scott Kenny said:
That's what technical data packages are for.
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That would be useful if there was a state owned enterprise for making firearms (there hasn't been for close to 40 years)....or a privately owned firearms outfit (there was....they were called Manroy, they're now FNH).
 
Got to say I've seen some reviews of the VHS-2 and it does seem a nice bit of kit.
 
Someone, presumably in the Starmer government, has been flying kites and floating trial balloons in the British media regarding the possibility of Britain building a new stockpile of tactical/sub-strategic nukes (a baseline number of at least a hundred warheads has been mentioned) using existing designs to among other things replace US B61 freefall bombs deployed in European NATO countries, as well as the setting up of a joint Anglo-French effort to develop and produce new nuclear warheads, SLBMs, and a future SSBN design to replace the now endangered W93, Trident II, and Dreadnought programs.
 
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Keep in mind, beyond Dassault's statement they be willing and ready to provide nuclear weapons capability for European states. That Sweden is now moving towards a possible withdrawal from NPT and CTBT, and dusting off the effort of the 60's. An effort that led to subcritical tests....

If a Swedish site is provided for underground testing. It is possible to accelerate French and British efforts in a closer nuclear sharing arrangement with Sweden.

Norway is also talking of withdrawal from treaties.
 
I have to admit I’d rather the UK ordered more Typhons than other options on the table. Especially as GCAP is still a long way off.
 
The SA-80 replacement, not really sure what other nations do?

But there must be something out there that you can have the gucci version for the front line top troops, a watered down version for "standard" unit and then simple versions for the troops that will need it for personal protection.

Short length and or sliding stock would be helpful for the drivers and other basic troops so it can be stowed.

Whatever it is they should be easy to use and very robust

What's out there currently that has some connection to the UK as we'll want to try and do some work here?
 
Ordering more Typhoons especially the new electronic warfare variant before the GCAP enters service would be a great idea Flyaway, that would be good for the RAF.
 
bob225 said:
The SA-80 replacement, not really sure what other nations do?

But there must be something out there that you can have the gucci version for the front line top troops, a watered down version for "standard" unit and then simple versions for the troops that will need it for personal protection.

Short length and or sliding stock would be helpful for the drivers and other basic troops so it can be stowed.

Whatever it is they should be easy to use and very robust

What's out there currently that has some connection to the UK as we'll want to try and do some work here?
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That has a relation to the UK? Well, there's the HK/BAe factory and FN, isn't there? I don't think there's any other real arms factory in existence in the UK. Holland and Holland or Westley Richards don't count.

Not that the UK wants to spend HK money for the basic rifles...

As far as rifles go, what makes the Gucci kit is the stuff you add to the rifle. Fancy scopes or whatever.

I'd honestly say FN P90s/5.7 pistols for the troops that don't need a real rifle, and VHS-2 bullpups for your basic troops. SAS etc are already using some AR variant, and might even be using HK 416s.

You can make an argument for MP7s for the troops that don't need a real rifle, they're a little smaller to carry than a P90. But you're paying for the HK roll stamp.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Well, there's the HK/BAe factory
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What HK factory? They have a warehouse in Nottingham, that's it.

Scott Kenny said:
Not that the UK wants to spend HK money for the basic rifles...
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One thing MoD will spend ludicrous sums on...is small arms. L85 was not cheap in the first place, let alone in its later guises...and the LMT/Knights stuff is not cheap....

Scott Kenny said:
I'd honestly say FN P90s/5.7 pistols for the troops that don't need a real rifle
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Training on 5.7 is ludicrously expensive, FiveSeven is not a suitable sidearm for militaries. We have just bought loads of Glock 19, so why change?

Scott Kenny said:
You can make an argument for MP7s for the troops that don't need a real rifle, they're a little smaller to carry than a P90. But you're paying for the HK roll stamp.
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Both 4.85 and 5.7 are non-standard calibres and offer little in practice over the many 5.56 carbine out there.
 
timmymagic said:
What HK factory? They have a warehouse in Nottingham, that's it.
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What factory did the L85 rebuilds? A2 model, I think?



timmymagic said:
One thing MoD will spend ludicrous sums on...is small arms. L85 was not cheap in the first place, let alone in its later guises...and the LMT/Knights stuff is not cheap....
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That's sniper/DMR stuff, you should spend money on those things!

You do NOT need to spend lots of money on the basic rifle. The current M4 carbine costs the US government about $1000 for the bare rifle. Lots more for all the accessories, but the bare rifle is not all that expensive.



timmymagic said:
Training on 5.7 is ludicrously expensive,
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Not now that the magazine patent has expired. There's more companies making 5.7 firearms, which means more companies making 5.7 ammunition. Plus, a basic 40grain JHP or FMJ bullet is very common in the US for the other .22cal varmint rifles. Which means very cheap.

I'm still not sure how reloadable the brass cases are, but that's a different discussion. I'm not sure any military reloads their brass, just melts it down as scrap.


timmymagic said:
FiveSeven is not a suitable sidearm for militaries. We have just bought loads of Glock 19, so why change?
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The milspec titanium-core ammunition seems to be quite effective, tumbling after impact to increase permanent cavity size. For that matter, the Fort Hood shooter used a Five-seveN with civilian ammo.



timmymagic said:
Both 4.85 and 5.7 are non-standard calibres and offer little in practice over the many 5.56 carbine out there.
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Because you can have a much physically smaller firearm to work with. MP7 is the size of an Uzi. P90 is about 20" long overall. For a troop that does not need the full infantry rifle but does need a weapon, it's a good compromise over even a bullpup like a VHS2 or L85.
 

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