China's Project 891 aircraft carrier

[cattalonX]

《砺剑》 20240502 大国航母 深蓝逐梦_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

https://tv.cctv.com/2024/05/02/VIDETi0dmLoU0wogWarLbEZQ240502.shtml?spm=C28340.PAx0UfRDwU7s.E2U4yXoaVNjH.12《砺剑》 20240502 大国航母 深蓝逐梦https://tv.cctv.com/2024/05/02/VIDETi0dmLoU0wogWarLbEZQ240502.shtml?sp, 视频播放量 3265、弹幕量 5、点赞数 90、投硬币枚数 8、收藏人数 74、转发人数 19, 视频作者 MRD910, 作者简介...

www.bilibili.com

Model of concept

 

[AE220]

is this related to the project 707 on global security?

Aircraft Carrier Project - People's Liberation Army Navy

From a purely military perspective, a Chinese aircraft carrier would be expensive to operate, and carrier would be vulnerable to attack by aircraft, fast surface vessels and submarines. An aircraft carrier could enhance China's ability to lay claim to the islands and coral atolls of the South...

www.globalsecurity.org

 

[cattalonX]

is this related to the project 707 on global security?

Aircraft Carrier Project - People's Liberation Army Navy

From a purely military perspective, a Chinese aircraft carrier would be expensive to operate, and carrier would be vulnerable to attack by aircraft, fast surface vessels and submarines. An aircraft carrier could enhance China's ability to lay claim to the islands and coral atolls of the South...

www.globalsecurity.org

From different times
707 means July 1970
891 means January 1989

 

[Torsionbar]

is this related to the project 707 on global security?

Aircraft Carrier Project - People's Liberation Army Navy

From a purely military perspective, a Chinese aircraft carrier would be expensive to operate, and carrier would be vulnerable to attack by aircraft, fast surface vessels and submarines. An aircraft carrier could enhance China's ability to lay claim to the islands and coral atolls of the South...

www.globalsecurity.org

The picture is 1946 Carrier Study - C-2

 

[Antonio]

The picture is 1946 Carrier Study - C-2

An US Navy project

 

[cattalonX]

Scale model and size
Length （waterline）264.435m
breadth （waterline）34.278m
max breadth（Should be the flight deck） 64m
depth（to the flight deck） 25.404m
depth（to the hangar deck）15.839m
displacement 432886 KN（about 44154t）

 

[Hood]

Some pictures from the source in the opening post.

 

[BROF]

From different times
707 means July 1970
891 means January 1989

It is "Clemenceau" and the BS-5 catapults were procured from the Englishmen.

 

[cattalonX]

It is "Clemenceau" and the BS-5 catapults were procured from the Englishmen.

No，

 

[Tzoli]

Also wasn't delta winged aircraft less suitable for carrier fighters due to the instability at lower speed?

 

[cattalonX]

Also wasn't delta winged aircraft less suitable for carrier fighters due to the instability at lower speed?

RafaleM········
I think the Chinese just chose the best fighter they were developing at the time
There was also another model of J-13

 

[Archibald]

Also wasn't delta winged aircraft less suitable for carrier fighters due to the instability at lower speed?

Before fly by wire - yes. Although there was only Skyray so...

I remember a story that when Clemenceau was retired in the fall of 1997, the chineses made a proposal to buy it (just like they dismantled that australian carrier: to learn).

 

[Antonio]

Any image of the previous Project 707?

 

[BROF]

No，View attachment 728099

No it is not. The Mitchell Brown BS-5 on the Clémenceau PA-54 class were made in England. Your "source" is wrong.

 

[SK2]

Those maybe completely different information.

The pages @cattalonX shown are from a thesis which mentioned a model-scale designed for water tank testing, which based on the hull shape of Forrestal while shrinking to the size of Essex. It's not necessary the actual 891, but could be part of the process to evolve to it. The HMAS Melbourne they got in 1985 should benefit them much in designing the 891 also.

 

[cattalonX]

No it is not. The Mitchell Brown BS-5 on the Clémenceau PA-54 class were made in England. Your "source" is wrong.

Because there's nothing about Clemenceau and BS5

In fact, the connection between France and China's aircraft carrier was in 1995, when France wanted to send the decommissioned Clemenceau to China, but it needed to give the order for the refit to France, just like the Indian and Russian aircraft carriers

Of course, the Chinese are not stupid

 

[BROF]

Because there's nothing about Clemenceau and BS5

In fact, the connection between France and China's aircraft carrier was in 1995, when France wanted to send the decommissioned Clemenceau to China, but it needed to give the order for the refit to France, just like the Indian and Russian aircraft carriers

Of course, the Chinese are not stupid

Article in Global Security quoted by "AE220". Nothing to do with Chinese being stupid or not.

 

[Archibald]

Quick Google search. AFAIK, China inquired about buying old Clemenceau back in 1996-1997 but France would not sell it to them.

Google Search

 

[SK2]

There were multiple attempts for China trying to obtain carrier and carrier design during the 90s, with France, Russia, Spain, Italy being the targets

 

[alejandrogrossi]

View attachment 727748

《砺剑》 20240502 大国航母 深蓝逐梦_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

https://tv.cctv.com/2024/05/02/VIDETi0dmLoU0wogWarLbEZQ240502.shtml?spm=C28340.PAx0UfRDwU7s.E2U4yXoaVNjH.12《砺剑》 20240502 大国航母 深蓝逐梦https://tv.cctv.com/2024/05/02/VIDETi0dmLoU0wogWarLbEZQ240502.shtml?sp, 视频播放量 3265、弹幕量 5、点赞数 90、投硬币枚数 8、收藏人数 74、转发人数 19, 视频作者 MRD910, 作者简介...

www.bilibili.com

Model of concept

I like the design. A 45.000tn CV

 

[alejandrogrossi]

View attachment 727804


Scale model and size
Length （waterline）264.435m
breadth （waterline）34.278m
max breadth（Should be the flight deck） 64m
depth（to the flight deck） 25.404m
depth（to the hangar deck）15.839m
displacement 432886 KN（about 44154t）

With that size, that project is in the league of the CdG ?
So F/A-18 / Rafale /F-4J/S/N + E-2 could operate, if this was a Western Cv (real)?

 

[publiusr]

The budget for these things will eat them alive.

 

[cattalonX]

Article in Global Security quoted by "AE220". Nothing to do with Chinese being stupid or not.

Global Security is bullshit，They even used a picture of an American aircraft carrier

 

[donnyjie]

Global Security is bullshit，They even used a picture of an American aircraft carrier

View attachment 728591

The blueprint could even be found in USN's Spring Style Book 4, which is just in another thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/us-navy-spring-styles-ship-designs-book-4-1946-1954.39443/
Shame on you, Global Security!

 

[publiusr]

Global Security is bullshit，They even used a picture of an American aircraft carrier

View attachment 728591

They had a falling out with Charles Vick didn't they, or was that FAS?

 

[noob2wows]

Any image of the previous Project 707?

According to Chinese military enthusiasts, Project 707 has a line drawing of a cross-section that has not been published on the Internet. Those who have seen it describe it as having “no outboard structure and a square stern”.

 

[Resister1976]

is this related to the project 707 on global security?

Aircraft Carrier Project - People's Liberation Army Navy

From a purely military perspective, a Chinese aircraft carrier would be expensive to operate, and carrier would be vulnerable to attack by aircraft, fast surface vessels and submarines. An aircraft carrier could enhance China's ability to lay claim to the islands and coral atolls of the South...

www.globalsecurity.org

Yes,if you fortunately see some interesting things,such as 707's lines plan.
Someone wants to find her mother,but humorously find her daughter: Project 891.
If you remove 891‘s outboard structure and bulbous bow,and then,let 891 become narrow,you will see.
It's like restoring CV-9 Essex from SCB-125 state to its original state

 

[cattalonX]

According to Chinese military enthusiasts, Project 707 has a line drawing of a cross-section that has not been published on the Internet. Those who have seen it describe it as having “no outboard structure and a square stern”.

 

[Resister1976]

View attachment 755063

Where are you see it?
Interesting.

 

[cattalonX]

Where are you see it?
Interesting.

Someone is going to model the hull from this, but they still don't know what the superstructure looks like
It's supposed to be from an old book, but nobody put it on the Internet

 

[Resister1976]

Someone is going to model the hull from this, but they still don't know what the superstructure looks like
It's supposed to be from an old book, but nobody put it on the Internet

Hummm...
They did it?!
I just saw them on a website.

 

[SK2]

The stern looks a bit weird to me...

 

[Resister1976]

The stern looks a bit weird to me...

Perhaps due to the lack of details?

 

[Resister1976]

View attachment 755727View attachment 755728View attachment 755729View attachment 755730
Hummm...
They did it?!
I just saw them on a website.

Now I see more pictures on the website https://www.bilibili.com/opus/1028727603230408711

 

[cattalonX]

Now I see more pictures on the website https://www.bilibili.com/opus/1028727603230408711View attachment 758199View attachment 758200View attachment 758201

The guy's a little paranoid about adding big anti-ship missiles
However, current articles on Project 707 indicate that anti-ship missiles cannot affect flight deck and hangar layout

 

[Resister1976]

The guy's a little paranoid about adding big anti-ship missiles
However, current articles on Project 707 indicate that anti-ship missiles cannot affect flight deck and hangar layout

Yes,and so?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Yes,and so?

Implies that in any "disagreement" between flight deck and antiship missiles, the flight deck wins every time.

Either the ASMs go entirely, or just go over the side onto sponsons. And with the ASMs off the flight deck, the forward SAM launcher can be moved back to immediately in front of the island.

 

[cattalonX]

Yes,and so?

《刘华清年谱》“707”航母工程相关摘录

考虑到本舰舰载机全系歼击机和直升飞机，缺乏对敌水面舰艇编队攻击的能力，故又装配了射程为500-600公里的中程导弹，这样给本舰增加了对大型导弹舰和航母的打击手段。在不影响飞行甲板和机库等重要部位布置的情况下，装载舰对舰导弹，即可起到舰载轰炸机的作用或者超过轰炸机的作用。
Considering that the ship's carrier-borne aircraft are all fighters and helicopters, lack the ability to attack the enemy's surface ship formation, so it is equipped with medium-range missiles with a range of 500-600 kilometers, so that the ship has increased the means of striking large missile ships and aircraft carriers. Without affecting the arrangement of important parts such as the flight deck and hangar, the loading of ship-to-ship missiles can play the role of carrier-borne bombers or exceed the role of bombers.

At least for the purposes of these articles, the flight deck takes precedence over the missile

 

[Dilandu]

Considering that the ship's carrier-borne aircraft are all fighters and helicopters, lack the ability to attack the enemy's surface ship formation, so it is equipped with medium-range missiles with a range of 500-600 kilometers, so that the ship has increased the means of striking large missile ships and aircraft carriers. Without affecting the arrangement of important parts such as the flight deck and hangar, the loading of ship-to-ship missiles can play the role of carrier-borne bombers or exceed the role of bombers.

So basically they followed Soviet pattern - long-range missiles for strikes, aircraft for air control & defense?

 

[Scott Kenny]

《刘华清年谱》“707”航母工程相关摘录

考虑到本舰舰载机全系歼击机和直升飞机，缺乏对敌水面舰艇编队攻击的能力，故又装配了射程为500-600公里的中程导弹，这样给本舰增加了对大型导弹舰和航母的打击手段。在不影响飞行甲板和机库等重要部位布置的情况下，装载舰对舰导弹，即可起到舰载轰炸机的作用或者超过轰炸机的作用。
Considering that the ship's carrier-borne aircraft are all fighters and helicopters, lack the ability to attack the enemy's surface ship formation, so it is equipped with medium-range missiles with a range of 500-600 kilometers, so that the ship has increased the means of striking large missile ships and aircraft carriers. Without affecting the arrangement of important parts such as the flight deck and hangar, the loading of ship-to-ship missiles can play the role of carrier-borne bombers or exceed the role of bombers.

At least for the purposes of these articles, the flight deck takes precedence over the missile

China does have a Harpoon-class missile in their inventory, so it's not like their fighters have zero way to attack surface ships.