T-X Trainer - Boeing T-7A Red Hawk

[Mark Nankivil]

T-7 trainer production delayed again as Air Force, Boeing adjust plan

The T-7 program has been beset by design, testing and production issues that have caused its schedule to slip behind.

www.defensenews.com

Can't figure out if I should be ticked off at the USAF, Boeing or both.....

 

[TomcatViP]

Let's not forget that Saab/Sweden, is also part of the delays.

 

[Moose]

Can't figure out if I should be ticked off at the USAF, Boeing or both.....

In this case it is USAF since they adding to the requirements/capabilites at this stage of the program

 

[NMaude]

In this case it is USAF since they adding to the requirements/capabilites at this stage of the program

Has someone explained to them the concepts of "Requirements creep" and "Gold plating"?

 

[Scott Kenny]

Has someone explained to them the concepts of "Requirements creep" and "Gold plating"?

They invented the concept, I think...


This is why you write absolutely punishing costs for change requests past a certain point into your contracts. I'm talking order-of-magnitude increases, starting at $10mil and going up for each phase of design. $10mil, $100mil, $1bil, $10bil. The T-7 should be in the $1bil per change request level. If not $10bil/change.

 

[Arjen]

Let's not forget that Saab/Sweden, is also part of the delays.

Let's not forget that Boeing is a common factor in many other SNAFUs. Eye on the ball.

 

[GTX]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VOvSAgC6sE

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Let's not forget that Boeing is a common factor in many other SNAFUs. Eye on the ball.

From the engineering side, don't throw them under the bus. From the management, front office standpoint, throw then under the bus and then back over them too....

 

[AGS-1787]

Why can’t they make a simple trainer jet?

 

[Combat-Master]

Why can’t they make a simple trainer jet?

Because jets be getting complicated yo... Turkey's Hurjet trainer jet is currently being developed with autonomous teaming.

Turkish Air Force's Anka-3 stealth drone completes first internal munition test to expand strike capabilities

Turkish Air Force's Anka-3 stealth drone completes first internal munition test to expand strike capabilities

armyrecognition.com

 

[Moose]

Why can’t they make a simple trainer jet?

They made a simple trainer jet several years ago. The struggle has been about everything USAF wants over and above that.

 

[bring_it_on]

Looks like the most-recent delay is on account of flight control software work that had to be redone to correct deficiencies that has pushed back testing and thus the M-C . Similar issues, along with the escape system fixes, had previously caused the delay from early to mid 2025.

Multiple updates to the T-7’s flight control software have been required, delaying progress. According to the commander of Edwards’s 412th Test Wing, Brig. Gen. Douglas P. Wickert, the problem centered on control issues when the aircraft was operating at high angles of attack...A Boeing spokesperson acknowledged the flight control setbacks, but said the problem is now solved..

“We experienced a delay, but the issues have been resolved and the program is pressing forward with high angle of attack testing up to 30 degrees,” a Boeing spokesperson told Air & Space Forces Magazine before the latest Air Force announcement. The spokesperson said such issues “are not uncommon when testing a new aircraft.”

USAF Rejiggers T-7 Plan Again: New Test Aircraft, Delayed Production

The Air Force plans to buy four new test aircraft for the T-7 program and delay the first contract for production aircraft until fiscal 2026.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

From the management, front office standpoint, throw then under the bus and then back over them too....

And then run what's left through a wood chipper.

 

[archipeppe]

A complex question with a simple answer....

 

[yasotay]

A complex question with a simple answer....

Now one would think that, but, well, it needs US electronics that work on a different amperage, and the fuel system is not in concurrence with USAF Reg "this that and the other," and the brakes have to be redone, different ejection seats. But most of all the Congressional delegations from Missouri and five other states will have grave concerns about it being the best choice.

 

[archipeppe]

Now one would think that, but, well, it needs US electronics that work on a different amperage, and the fuel system is not in concurrence with USAF Reg "this that and the other," and the brakes have to be redone, different ejection seats. But most of all the Congressional delegations from Missouri and five other states will have grave concerns about it being the best choice.

It is right.
But M-346 is more "F-35 oriented" as Italian and other air forces has already demonstrated.

I have a question for you: given the production line of M-346 in U.S. and not in Italy do you really think that all the above (and other) modifications would take longer than this Boeing well..... mess?

 

[bring_it_on]

Boeing T-X is already producing aircraft, and first production contract will come next year. Its a fixed price contract meaning Boeing, and not the AF is on the hook for delays or additional costs associated with keeping the line humming along during this period. You aren't going to find an industrial partner, establish production program, and achieve production and design certifications in time before Boeing begins working on the first production order.

The more viable alternate to Boeing T-7A would have been the T-50 based proposal from Lockheed. LM had an industrial partnership established and site and production plane stablished for the aircraft in its South Carolina facility that now produces F-16's.

 

[yasotay]

It is right.
But M-346 is more "F-35 oriented" as Italian and other air forces has already demonstrated.

I have a question for you: given the production line of M-346 in U.S. and not in Italy do you really think that all the above (and other) modifications would take longer than this Boeing well..... mess?

While the comments from @bring_it_on are correct, I believe that it is possible for partnership with Boeing competitors . Now that Leonardo has facilities in the US and a program with the USAF, it could be a real alternate if Boeing continues to demonstrate ineptitude. I am sure that Lock-Mart would entertain renewing the option if it appeared that T-7 was truely at risk.
Honestly I think that a significant portion of the continued patience with Boeing comes from a strategic concern at America's faultering leadership in aicraft technology. I would contend that there are several nations already on par with the US in that respect, with several more rapidly gaining. Lethargic bureaucratic leadership does not keep you at the top of the game.

 

[bring_it_on]

Worth refreshing how the program went down. Boeing bid something like $9 Bn on a program that had a cost estimate somewhere in the $13-15 Bn range. It was a deliberate strategy with Boeing at the time hopeful that cash flows from commercial aircraft sales would more than compensate for the additional costs..The USAF is getting a good deal here all things considered..a clean sheet digitally designed trainer aircraft with the contractor bearing 100% of the cost overruns (and penalties) to meet spec and agreed upon terms. It would be foolish for the USAF to break those terms as long as it can live with a 2-3 year delay in getting IOC. In hindsight, setting this up where someone with a completely untested design could outbid other two offers with proven designs is probably not a good idea..even if the contractor assumes all risk..

 

[Archibald]

And then run what's left through a wood chipper.

Then throw the wood chipper into a volcano lava pit, with a megaton nuke. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[GTX]

New Details About T-7A Red Hawk Jet Trainer Ejection System Woes Emerge

Work to fix the T-7's ejection system and other issues is underway, but new problems have also now been uncovered in environmental tests.

www.twz.com

 

[yasotay]

I am beginning to wonder that not all of the asininity belongs with Boeing. Have our testing methods become so infinite that it is virtually impossible for a program to meet its original timelines? I do not have any love for Boeing, nor distaste for the test community, but recent history with aircraft development make me wonder if this is more or a communal problem.

 

[TomS]

I am beginning to wonder that not all of the asininity belongs with Boeing. Have our testing methods become so infinite that it is virtually impossible for a program to meet its original timelines? I do not have any love for Boeing, nor distaste for the test community, but recent history with aircraft development make me wonder if this is more or a communal problem.

I was just thinking the same thing yesterday. It's beginning to feel a lot like those scary news reports about dangerous chemicals that are sometimes based on very small amounts that are only found due to improved testing processes.

 

[bring_it_on]

Flight Testing the T-7A Red Hawk​

On this episode, Jonathan "Gremlin" Aronoff, of the U.S. Air Force's 419 Flight Test Squadron at Edwards AFB, California, describes the rigorous testing and development needed to introduce a new trainer more than a half century since the last time a tactical jet trainer debuted.

Flight Testing the T-7A Red Hawk

Podcast Episode · Fighter Pilot Podcast · 01/28/2025 · 1h 55m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Ozair]

I am beginning to wonder that not all of the asininity belongs with Boeing. Have our testing methods become so infinite that it is virtually impossible for a program to meet its original timelines? I do not have any love for Boeing, nor distaste for the test community, but recent history with aircraft development make me wonder if this is more or a communal problem.

Some of the seats issues are USAF responsibility as they selected the seat. The seat escape issues, so getting the seat out of the aircraft and specifically through the canopy, are Boeing issues.

Overall I agree with your statement though. The test community has become completely risk averse. Easy to say because I'm not putting my life on the line but the amount of time spent on edge cases that are almost never replicated in real life and could be mitigated by either stronger training or AGCAS, which isn't currently on the aircraft.

 

[bring_it_on]

Some of the seats issues are USAF responsibility as they selected the seat. The seat escape issues, so getting the seat out of the aircraft and specifically through the canopy, are Boeing issues.

Also pertaining to seat requirements itself. Introduced expanded seat and egress requirements assumes risk on the program. AF wanted that from day-1, and Boeing agreed to it so now they must eat the cost of all those re-runs and testing.

 

[Ozair]

Also pertaining to seat requirements itself. Introduced expanded seat and egress requirements assumes risk on the program. AF wanted that from day-1, and Boeing agreed to it so now they must eat the cost of all those re-runs and testing.

That part confuses me. The other option was the MB seat that was already certified for the weights the USAF was seeking and operational on the F-35. I question if that seat had been chosen what the state of play would be today.

 

[BlackBat242]

The USAF has never liked "that British seat" - they repeatedly design their own seats.

 

[yasotay]

The USAF has never liked "that British seat" - they repeatedly design their own seats.

Agreed. Clearly a case of NIH (Not Invented Here).

 

[NMaude]

The USAF has never liked "that British seat" - they repeatedly design their own seats.

The USN on the other hand does like the MB seats.

 

[BlackBat242]

The USN on the other hand does like the MB seats.

Damned straight - the USN & USMC simply go for what works.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Damned straight - the USN & USMC simply go for what works.

Had a former-USAF ejection seat tech in my A&P classes, he called them "Martin-Baker meet your maker" seats.

Which started a bunch of shit-talked from the F-4 mechanic. And the Weapons Tech.

 

[Forest Green]

Photos from the #RedTailRendezvous at
@EdwardsAFB
!! 1st time EVER all the #Redtails are in 1 place. Also 1st up close w/T-7 Redhawk

https://twitter.com/x/status/1898423286155071573

View: https://x.com/ShorealoneFilms/status/1898423286155071573

 

[Mark Nankivil]

This past week, my son and I went on vacation to Southern California where we visited Mojave Air & Space Port and found the Northrop-Grumman T-X N400NT on the ramp. She will be placed on display elsewhere in the near future.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Mark Nankivil]

While in SoCal, we also had the opportunity to visit Edwards AFB and catch one of the Boeing-Saab T-7As fly and the following day, be on display for a Tuskegee Airmen/Redtail event that Forest Green posted a link about above. The Redtail T-1A was supposed to be there too but broke and may never fly again. A P-51D from Palm Springs was there along with the F-35A from Alabama. The 50th Anniversary F-16 was also brought out for display.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[H_K]

This past week, my son and I went on vacation to Southern California where we visited Mojave Air & Space Port and found the Northrop-Grumman T-X N400NT on the ramp. She will be placed on display elsewhere in the near future.

Thanks! Amazing pics. Wish I had some dimensions & performance specs for this one.

(Beyond the little I was able to glean from its FAA registration file here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ogram-entry-model-400-swift.31206/post-707181)

 

[Scott Kenny]

This past week, my son and I went on vacation to Southern California where we visited Mojave Air & Space Port and found the Northrop-Grumman T-X N400NT on the ramp. She will be placed on display elsewhere in the near future.

Not gonna lie, it looks like a two-seat F-20.