HMS Nelson: Post War Modernisation Plans

[Temeraire]

I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding the modernisation plans discussed for HMS Nelson that would have kept her in the fleet Post war.

Plans to keep her were I believe mentioned in Drachinifels video about the Nelson class and there is also this on the wiki page:

According to Winston Churchill's memoirs, a major modernisation was discussed to enable Nelson to serve for several years in the postwar fleet, but no other details have survived. In any case Nelson was too slow for the modern fleet which had no front-line role for battleships any more.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Considering the state of the nations finances at the time, I see that highly unlikely. Vanguard was brand spanking new with little role, what was the physical state of the other battleships after years of war work and little maintenance?

 

[Archibald]

Nelson and Rodney were pretty worn out, after WWII ? plus not only HMS Vanguard, but all the KGVs, were far better for upgrades. Except that no role elft for battleships post war.

 

[Dilandu]

Considering the state of the nations finances at the time, I see that highly unlikely. Vanguard was brand spanking new with little role, what was the physical state of the other battleships after years of war work and little maintenance?

Not good, but RN still hoped for ten-battleship post-war fleet (five new, five old), so they were reluctant to get rid of "Rodney" and "Nelson" just yet. Those battleships were still the heaviest-armed in Royal Navy, and so many refit plans - unfulfilled - were prepared for them during the war, that the whole affair slided a bit into sunken cost fallacy area.

 

[Thorvic]

Possibly seen as a stop gap measure to retain the 16 inch guns until replaced by the revised Lion class designs that were still active projects til 1949

 

[Temeraire]

Not good, but RN still hoped for ten-battleship post-war fleet (five new, five old), so they were reluctant to get rid of "Rodney" and "Nelson" just yet. Those battleships were still the heaviest-armed in Royal Navy, and so many refit plans - unfulfilled - were prepared for them during the war, that the whole affair slided a bit into sunken cost fallacy area.

from what i've gathered the conditions of the british battleships in 1946 were, as follows:

Vanguard - Brand New
All KGV's - Nearly New
QE - Decent
Warspite - Extremely poor
Valiant - Beyond economical repair (1944 drydock incident and having two shafts cut off as a result)
Malaya - Worn-out and Unmodernised.
Renown - Decent
Revenge - Poor and Unmodernised
Royal Sovereign - With the Russians
Resolution - Ok condition but Unmodernised
Ramilies - Worn-Out and Unmodernised
Nelson - Good
Rodney - Worn-Out

(worn-out means machinery and systems need overhauling)

 

[Dilandu]

Possibly seen as a stop gap measure to retain the 16 inch guns until replaced by the revised Lion class designs that were still active projects til 1949

Not exactly. If I understood it correctly, RN have "Renown", "Queen Elizabeth" and "Valiant", that were in relatively good condition and still have a bit of service life in them. They needed another two old battleships to finish the "second line", and "Rodney" and "Nelson" were logical choice. Apparently RN admirals hoped to persuade government to fund their refit (at very least so they could be mothballed). But nothing came out of it.

 

[Dilandu]

Valiant - Beyond economical repair (1944 drydock incident and having two shafts cut off as a result)

Hm! Forgot about that, must admit!

 

[Archibald]

1916-era battleships at the dawn of the nuclear era... okay... WDF ?

 

[EwenS]

Valiant eventually arrived back at Devonport via the Cape on the 1 Feb 1945. She was taken in hand and given a refit that lasted through until April or August (my sources vary) 1946. She then joined the stokers training establishment Imperieuse.

That last refit increased her AA armament and updated her radars as well as putting right the damage she suffered at Trincomalee in Aug 1944 when AFD23 collapsed around her.



Valiant on the right below



Note the Pom Pom on B turret in place of twin 20mm and another pair on the aft superstructure. Also Type 277 & 293 radars on foremast and Type 274 on the main director

Rodney was in a very poor state by late 1944 and was leaking like a sieve. She went to the breakers yard still with her full 1944 camouflage.

By mid-1945 they had pulled the forward 6 x 4.5” turrets from Renown, reportedly to re-equip them with RPC. But I don’t think they were ever put back into her.

Revenge & Resolution had been out of front line service since late 1943, Malaya since Oct 1944 & Ramilles since March 1945. They were used in for various training purposes while in Reserve. Resolution appears alongside Valiant in the above photo minus her 15” guns.

 

[Dilandu]

1916-era battleships at the dawn of the nuclear era... okay... WDF ?

Mostly the experience of Arctic and Mediterranean. Where carriers, no matter how useful, weren't able to serve as backbone of the fleet due to weather conditions and/or theater size limitations. Basically the idea was, that RN need enough battlewagons to hide their carriers behind them.

 

[EwenS]

1916-era battleships at the dawn of the nuclear era... okay... WDF ?

While the US sent Nevada, Pennsylvania and New York to Bikini in 1946 and scrapped 2 of the New Mexico’s in 1947 (the third, Mississippi, became an armament training and trials ship until scrapped in 1956) they retained the 2 Tennessee and 3 Colorado class until 1959.

 

[Dilandu]

While the US sent Nevada, Pennsylvania and New York to Bikini in 1946 and scrapped 2 of the New Mexico’s in 1947 (the third, Mississippi, became an armament training and trials ship until scrapped in 1956) they retained the 2 Tennessee and 3 Colorado class until 1959.

Well, those five were seriously refitted during the war, and were essentially the "newest of old" battleships. USN could pay for mothballing them.

 

[uk 75]

After WW2 ends in 1945 which countries apart from UK and US had or were planning/building battleships?
Russia comes to mind of course but there were some others?

 

[EwenS]

France - Richelieu, Jean Bart & Lorraine (until 1954)
Brazil - Minas Gerais wasn’t disposed of until 1952
Argentina - Rivadavia & Moreno until 1956/57
Chile - Almirante Latorre until 1959
Italy - once everything had been agreed about dispersing her fleet amongst the Allies which took until c1948, she was left with Andrea Doria & Duilo as training ships until 1956.


The above immediately come to mind as existing beyond 1945, but not all as operational front line ships.

 

[uk 75]

This is a useful alt history thread for RN battleships other than Vanguard and KGclass which have been covered.

If the Soviet Navy had built battleships or perhaps captured unbuilt German battleships the RN might have been keen to retain the 16" guns on Nelson and Rodney.

One at least (using the other for spare parts) might have served.

Had the Soviets overrun more of Germany and a broken backed war had started in 1946 battleships might also have been useful for shore bombardment.

 

[NMaude]

Russia comes to mind of course but there were some others?

IIRC Stalin really, really loved big-gun battleships with this only coming to an end when Khrushchev took power in 1954.

 

[uk 75]

Big battleships have been online (anyone remember Furashita's Fleet) for years. Wargamers and modellers can deploy the Friedrich Der Grosse to take on a Lion or N3 battleship.
But the other 1946 scenarios have not been so well covered.
Carrier aviation of course had made the battleship obsolete but limited war or broken backed general war makes battleships perhaps more relevant.
Retaining the KGVs would be the first choice but this thread offers some alternatives.

 

[Tzoli]

While their guns are the most powerful in the RN fleet, their state but especially are their speed that made them very obsolete.
A number of projects drawn up before and during WW2 but none finished (War Started, USN did not allowed to use 5" twin mountings for non USN ships which were of high demand.

 

[drwells42]

IIRC Stalin really, really loved big-gun battleships with this only coming to an end when Khrushchev took power in 1954.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Stalin really, really loved battlecruisers. During World War II, Project 69 was his pet project, but he didn't do much to salvage Project 23. In the post-war era, Project 82 was his pet project, but he let Project 24 expire in 1950.

 

[drwells42]

Getting back to the main topic, I think it would have been technically possible to refit HMS Nelson, but given the UK's post-war situation, there was little chance that anything like this would have been done.

Any refit would have to be relatively modest, i.e. no major changes to the main guns, main superstructure, or engines. IIRC, there was a wartime proposal to refit the Nelson with US weapons, including 8 twin 5"/L38, (replacing the 6" twins). Perhaps they could have substituted RN 4.5". Obviously, there would also need to be other upgrades, such as radar and light AA guns.

In the end, there was neither the money nor the will, so it never happened.

 

[Dilandu]

Any refit would have to be relatively modest, i.e. no major changes to the main guns, main superstructure, or engines. IIRC, there was a wartime proposal to refit the Nelson with US weapons, including 8 twin 5"/L38, (replacing the 6" twins). Perhaps they could have substituted RN 4.5". Obviously, there would also need to be other upgrades, such as radar and light AA guns.

Indeed there was such proposal, and even model was prepared:

* Eight 5"/38 dual mount (British initially hoped for 5"/54, but they were cancelled)
* Four Mk-37 directors with Mk-4 radars in diamond position around superstructure
* Four octuple Pom-Pom's (two on turret roofs, two at superstructure sides) and multiple quad Bofors guns
* Installation of additional AC power system (American weapons and electronic could not work with British DC)

RN put much hopes in this proposal, but Americans were less than enthusiastic. British eventually persuaded them to took "Nelson" into work by summer 1944, but only under condition that repair must be completed by mid-1945, so the ship would be used against Japan. This was the project undoing, since after shipyard inspection "Nelson" condition was found to be worse than British tried to present, it became obvious that refit could not be finished till early 1946 (admiral King was even more pessemistic, suggesting summer 1946 as earliest possible). After such accessment, USN pretty much lost all interest, and demanded that British should either accept the minimal refit possible - no more than 3 million dollars, hull and machinery repairs and modernization of light AA only - or took their battleship and leave he shipyard.

 

[Dilandu]

Getting back to the main topic, I think it would have been technically possible to refit HMS Nelson, but given the UK's post-war situation, there was little chance that anything like this would have been done.

Well, she received hull repairs in Devonport in 1945, so at least she wasn't leaking. Assuming that some money would be found, I suppose, the refit would involve re-using DP guns from cancelled destroyers (Batlle-class, presumably) to save money and light AA removed from decomissioned warships. A new radar & communication suite would be also fit, as well as new AA directors (again, most likely from cancelled destroyers). Definitely no major hull or machinery alterations.

 

[Temeraire]

* Installation of additional AC power system (American weapons and electronic could not work with British DC)

The electrical system being replaced would actually be a very good thing as obsolete DC systems proved to be the fleet carriers undoing (especially for Eagle)

 

[NMaude]

The electrical system being replaced would actually be a very good thing as obsolete DC systems proved to be the fleet carriers undoing (especially for Eagle)

Why was the DC system inferior?

 

[SSgtC]

Why was DC system inferior?

Because almost all modern electronics used AC power. Not to mention it was safer

 

[Dilandu]

The electrical system being replaced would actually be a very good thing as obsolete DC systems proved to be the fleet carriers undoing (especially for Eagle)

Not replaced - it was still required to power British equipment. The idea was to have two electrical systems - AC and DC - running in parallel. Overcomplicated, yes, but forced solution due to mix of British and American equipment on them.

 

[Temeraire]

Why was the DC system inferior?

Because it limited the foreign electronics the ship could be fitted with preventing greater interoperability with allies, not to mention how inefficient it is compared with AC

 

[Scott Kenny]

Why was the DC system inferior?

It's greatly inefficient over distance.

Example: the "portable" submersible pumps used for dewatering on my subs were run on 450VDC. (Portable in quotes because the pump itself was over 80lbs and 450V power cables are about 150lbs/meter of length). An equivalent civilian pump is usually 240VAC.

450V systems also like to explode if mistreated or if there's ANY water present...

 

[JoeCalPo]

I'm uncertain how impractical this is, but I did build an ersatz HMS Lion using an Iowa hull, Rodney's armament, and a modified KGV superstructure, the idea being the Soviets manage to build one Soyuz, so the US sells Kentucky as is to the RN and they use what they have.
I also considered what happens if the RN sank Tirpitz on the way to Norway, just after the USN lost multiple battleships. Might the RN trade the slow but heavily armed Rodney and Nelson for a few USN cruisers and more old DDs?

 

[Archibald]

I'm uncertain how impractical this is, but I did build an ersatz HMS Lion using an Iowa hull, Rodney's armament, and a modified KGV superstructure, the idea being the Soviets manage to build one Soyuz, so the US sells Kentucky as is to the RN and they use what they have.
I also considered what happens if the RN sank Tirpitz on the way to Norway, just after the USN lost multiple battleships. Might the RN trade the slow but heavily armed Rodney and Nelson for a few USN cruisers and more old DDs?

We want pictures ! Perhaps in the modeling section of this forum...

 

[JoeCalPo]

We want pictures ! Perhaps in the modeling section of this forum...

Pictures posted in the User Artwork and Models section, under USS Bermuda.

 

[Temeraire]

I'm uncertain how impractical this is, but I did build an ersatz HMS Lion using an Iowa hull, Rodney's armament, and a modified KGV superstructure, the idea being the Soviets manage to build one Soyuz, so the US sells Kentucky as is to the RN and they use what they have.
I also considered what happens if the RN sank Tirpitz on the way to Norway, just after the USN lost multiple battleships. Might the RN trade the slow but heavily armed Rodney and Nelson for a few USN cruisers and more old DDs?

I mean, if by some miracle the Soviets managed to build a Soyuz it’s more likely that Vanguard and one of the KGVs (most likely Anson since she had been refitted most recently out of the four) would be retained in active service than some form of Iowa-Lion hybrid being built

 

[EwenS]

I also considered what happens if the RN sank Tirpitz on the way to Norway, just after the USN lost multiple battleships. Might the RN trade the slow but heavily armed Rodney and Nelson for a few USN cruisers and more old DDs?

The US had plenty of old slow battleships in the Pacific in early 1942.

Of the 8 old battleships present at Pearl Harbor on 7 Dec 1941, 3 (Tennessee, Pennsylvania and Maryland) were fully repaired by the end of Feb 1942 and back in service. They were joined by Colorado (refitting on the West Coast in Dec 1941) and the 3 New Mexicos transferred from the Atlantic in Dec 1941 after PH which arrived by the end of Jan 1941. Total 7, all dedicated to protecting the West Coast from Japanese attack, mainly because the USN did not have the replenishment oilers to support them further afield.

2 non-US standard ships, one badly in need of long refit would have been more of a hindrance than a help.

The USN did not exactly have a surplus of cruisers. 10 old Omahas (Britain had plenty old cruisers), 18 heavy cruisers (needed as carrier escorts 2-3 per carrier),
9 Brooklyn class with 6" guns and 4 Atlantas with 5" guns. The first of the Cleveland class didn't complete until June 1942 with only 4 in service by the end of the year.

1942 saw the USN lose Houston in March, and another 6 before the end of 1942.

Over in the Atlantic, the U-boat threat from Operation Drumbeat meant that the USN needed every escort it could lay its hands on. So no old DD to spare. Historically the flow was from the RN to the USN. For example 10 Flower class corvettes in service with the RN transferred to the USN in Feb/Mar 1942 along with the loan of other vessels to the USN.

For the RN it still faces the threat from the Italian fleet in the Med, where the only battleship available was the old Malaya in early 1942, and the Japanese.

So your plan makes no sense for either navy.

 

[JoeCalPo]

The original idea was to have fun with a partial Rodney model and spare parts.
As for the backstory, the elements that lead to the trade are: Tirpitz is sunk on the way to Norway, ending that threat; Germany and Italy decide NOT to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor, so the US has only one front and doesn't need to fight U-boats; Britain turns over administration and defense of Bahamas and Bermuda to the US to reduce their military responsibilities; the USN photographs Yamato and thus wants more battleships.
It's not meant to be entirely realistic, there are naturally many other things to consider. It's unlikely the US could avoid entering the European war for long, yes there are supply issues, more tankers/oilers need to be sent through the Canal. It's meant to be plausible enough for Rodney and Nelson to end up in US service.

 

[Temeraire]

Indeed there was such proposal, and even model was prepared:

* Eight 5"/38 dual mount (British initially hoped for 5"/54, but they were cancelled)
* Four Mk-37 directors with Mk-4 radars in diamond position around superstructure
* Four octuple Pom-Pom's (two on turret roofs, two at superstructure sides) and multiple quad Bofors guns
* Installation of additional AC power system (American weapons and electronic could not work with British DC)

I’m gonna use this to build a model of a modernised Nelson/Rodney (although I’ve got a HMS Invincible R05 to do first, I’ll post again when I start it)

 

[Dilandu]

I’m gonna use this to build a model of a modernised Nelson/Rodney (although I’ve got a HMS Invincible R05 to do first, I’ll post again when I start it)

Aw! It would be extremely interesting!

 

[Tzoli]

Maybe these drawings will help?
Michael Rozon's edits for proposed Nelson refits:

 

[Tzoli]

Also an interesting tidbit, a proposed and almost carried out addition of an octuple Pom-Pom at the base of the tower bridge of HMS Rodney:

 

[Temeraire]

Maybe these drawings will help?
John French's edits for proposed Nelson refits:

Thanks