USAF/USN 6th Gen Fighters - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS News & Analysis

[Maro.Kyo]

Yes I knew that

Then you'd also know that at least the JSF program is a bit hard to call a program in which the Navy "piggy backed" the AF.

 

[Hanse]

As much as I celebrate the achievements of Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, I imagine Leroy Grumman would have responded to that with one hell of an eye roll.

Where is Grumman today? Where is Lockheed?

 

[F-2]

It’s worth pointing out the companies that made aircraft for the navy, Grumman, Vought almost exclusively made aircraft for the Navy. While others like McDonald Douglas would crowbar a child’s fingers open to get a shiny dime he was holding if they thought they could.

 

[FighterJock]

As much as I celebrate the achievements of Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, I imagine Leroy Grumman would have responded to that with one hell of an eye roll.

Where is Grumman today? Where is Lockheed?

Combined with Northrop in the case of Grumman and Martin in the case of Lockheed.

 

[Hanse]

As much as I celebrate the achievements of Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, I imagine Leroy Grumman would have responded to that with one hell of an eye roll.

Where is Grumman today? Where is Lockheed?

Combined with Northrop in the case of Grumman and Martin in the case of Lockheed.

It was a rhetorical question. Grumman had the choice of going out of business or getting bought out. Lockheed never left the driver's seat.

 

[TomcatViP]

We knew already that airframe integration will be paramount for next Gen propulsion... And here comes the proof: GE, PW but also Boeing, LM and Northrop!

US Air Force picks five companies to prototype next-gen engines

The awards to the five firms mark a broadening of the adaptive engine market, which until now has been dominated by GE Aviation and Pratt & Whitney.

www.defensenews.com

Don't think too fancy: beyond actionned flows, turbo ramjets etc... This might only translate the need for distributed exhaust and active flows controls.

 

[Dreamfighter]

We knew already that airframe integration will be paramount for next Gen propulsion... And here comes the proof: GE, PW but also Boeing, LM and Northrop!

US Air Force picks five companies to prototype next-gen engines

The awards to the five firms mark a broadening of the adaptive engine market, which until now has been dominated by GE Aviation and Pratt & Whitney.

www.defensenews.com

" ... each an indefinite-delivery, indefinite-quantity contract worth up to $975 million to carry out the prototype phase of the Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion program ... "
"The Air Force said work on these prototype engines — including design, analysis, rig testing, prototype engine testing and weapon system integration — is expected to be done by July 2032."

So, as (IIRC) the AETP-engines are designed for / oriented towards the F-35, the 'full-scale NGAD-demonstrator' revealed by Will Roper was using (an) existing engine(s) (or a derivative) and any other/additional/future NGAD manned demonstrators or (EMD) prototypes are/will be using (derivatives of) existing engines until our timeline reaches 07/2032 ?

 

[Fighterreaper97]

Will future fighter still retain internal guns as well as direct energy weapons & air to air missiles

 

[Moose]

As much as I celebrate the achievements of Kelly Johnson and Ben Rich, I imagine Leroy Grumman would have responded to that with one hell of an eye roll.

Where is Grumman today? Where is Lockheed?

Yes that would be relevant if both companies' current state of being were down to who took Navy or USAF contracts. Grumman thrived, for decades, on Navy work while also finding time to tackle other challenges like the LEM. The implication that only fools or the desperate should take Navy contracts is silly.

 

[red admiral]

Don't think too fancy: beyond actionned flows, turbo ramjets etc... This might only translate the need for distributed exhaust and active flows controls.

Or just power and thermal management around the flight envelope and mission legs.

 

[Maro.Kyo]

We knew already that airframe integration will be paramount for next Gen propulsion... And here comes the proof: GE, PW but also Boeing, LM and Northrop!

US Air Force picks five companies to prototype next-gen engines

The awards to the five firms mark a broadening of the adaptive engine market, which until now has been dominated by GE Aviation and Pratt & Whitney.

www.defensenews.com

Don't think too fancy: beyond actionned flows, turbo ramjets etc... This might only translate the need for distributed exhaust and active flows controls.

Great, I was already heartbroken to know that YF-23 lost out in ATF, now we have a 4/5 chance of getting depressed with AF's choice and potentially killing the most beautiful bird in favor for the other.

 

[elmer]

F-22 Raptors Are 'Killing' Next-Gen NGAD Fighter, B-21 Bomber Program, US Air Force's Top Acquisition Official Says

The US Air Force’s under-development, B-21 ‘Raider’ bomber, hypersonic weapons, and wingmen drones for its Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will be left with fewer funds and manpower if 33 Block 20 F-22A Raptors remain in service, according to Andrew Hunter, the USAF’s top...

eurasiantimes.com

 

[F-2]

F-22 Raptors Are 'Killing' Next-Gen NGAD Fighter, B-21 Bomber Program, US Air Force's Top Acquisition Official Says

The US Air Force’s under-development, B-21 ‘Raider’ bomber, hypersonic weapons, and wingmen drones for its Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will be left with fewer funds and manpower if 33 Block 20 F-22A Raptors remain in service, according to Andrew Hunter, the USAF’s top...

eurasiantimes.com

It was a major misstep making this a classified program because the optics of retiring a large part of an already small air superiority force during one of the most intense periods of international relations since the end of the second world war is horrible.

 

[rooster]

F-22 Raptors Are 'Killing' Next-Gen NGAD Fighter, B-21 Bomber Program, US Air Force's Top Acquisition Official Says

The US Air Force’s under-development, B-21 ‘Raider’ bomber, hypersonic weapons, and wingmen drones for its Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will be left with fewer funds and manpower if 33 Block 20 F-22A Raptors remain in service, according to Andrew Hunter, the USAF’s top...

eurasiantimes.com

It was a major misstep making this a classified program because the optics of retiring a large part of an already small air superiority force during one of the most intense periods of international relations since the end of the second world war is horrible.

Oh please. 33 raptors are bankrupting the usaf? Now I've heard everything. We've printed more money for the Ukraine in the last 6 months than I dared imagine.

 

[MihoshiK]

F-22 Raptors Are 'Killing' Next-Gen NGAD Fighter, B-21 Bomber Program, US Air Force's Top Acquisition Official Says

The US Air Force’s under-development, B-21 ‘Raider’ bomber, hypersonic weapons, and wingmen drones for its Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will be left with fewer funds and manpower if 33 Block 20 F-22A Raptors remain in service, according to Andrew Hunter, the USAF’s top...

eurasiantimes.com

It was a major misstep making this a classified program because the optics of retiring a large part of an already small air superiority force during one of the most intense periods of international relations since the end of the second world war is horrible.

Oh please. 33 raptors are bankrupting the usaf? Now I've heard everything. We've printed more money for the Ukraine in the last 6 months than I dared imagine.

If nobody is increasing funding for the USAF it really doesn't matter how much money is spend on Ukraine. The USAF has a limited budget to work with.

 

[TomS]

If nobody is increasing funding for the USAF it really doesn't matter how much money is spend on Ukraine. The USAF has a limited budget to work with.

This. Plus, the money they're worried about isn't the cost to continue to operate those F-22s, but the cost to update them to a modern standard. Which is a lot of money.

And probably as bad, a lot of scarce engineering resources -- Lockheed (for example) only has so many skilled engineers, and using some of them to design the retrofits of old F-22s means they can't also be designing new stuff. Hiring more isn't easy, since there's a limited supply and lots of competition.

 

[Josh_TN]

It seems to me the F-22 is at this point only aimed at one country/theater and the question should be "how many is enough?". The answer to that question would depend on how many could realistically be based in the WestPac in facilities that are expected to survive. I think the existing force might well be sufficient, along with the F-35 force. The F-35 is inferior kinetically but probably has superior sensors at this point, along with ever increasing numbers.

The other thing to consider about retiring 30 F-22s is the number of parts that this would make available to the rest of a fleet desperate for legacy parts that has the worse readiness rates of any fighter in the service. Would rebuilding those air frames truly give you more *available* aircraft in a war?

 

[martinbayer]

F-22 Raptors Are 'Killing' Next-Gen NGAD Fighter, B-21 Bomber Program, US Air Force's Top Acquisition Official Says

The US Air Force’s under-development, B-21 ‘Raider’ bomber, hypersonic weapons, and wingmen drones for its Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) fighter will be left with fewer funds and manpower if 33 Block 20 F-22A Raptors remain in service, according to Andrew Hunter, the USAF’s top...

eurasiantimes.com

It was a major misstep making this a classified program because the optics of retiring a large part of an already small air superiority force during one of the most intense periods of international relations since the end of the second world war is horrible.

Oh please. 33 raptors are bankrupting the usaf? Now I've heard everything. We've printed more money for the Ukraine in the last 6 months than I dared imagine.

Somehow all of a sudden Augustine's Law #16 comes to mind...

 

[TomS]

It seems to me the F-22 is at this point only aimed at one country/theater and the question should be "how many is enough?". The answer to that question would depend on how many could realistically be based in the WestPac in facilities that are expected to survive.

I'd take issue with that. There are at least two theaters other than WestPac where F-22 could be a player -- note the deployment of a squadron to Europe right now and a deployment earlier this year to Saudi Arabia.

U.S. F-22s forward deploy to 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland

Twelve U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor aircraft assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron, Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, forward deployed, Aug. 4, 2022 to the 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland,

www.usafe.af.mil

Why the US Air Force Is Sending F-22 Raptors to the Middle East

The Air Force Just Upped the Game in the Middle East with F-22s: The Pentagon and the White House are taking seriously the conflict between the United Arab Emirates and Iran-backed Houthi rebels and raising the stakes. In a surprise development, the Air Force is sending a squadron of F-22...

www.19fortyfive.com

 

[jsport]

Kendall: Australian Ghost Bat Drone Could Pair With NGAD - Air Force Magazine

Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said the U.S. could incorporate the Australian-made Ghost Bat drone into the NGAD family of systems.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Josh_TN]

It seems to me the F-22 is at this point only aimed at one country/theater and the question should be "how many is enough?". The answer to that question would depend on how many could realistically be based in the WestPac in facilities that are expected to survive.

I'd take issue with that. There are at least two theaters other than WestPac where F-22 could be a player -- note the deployment of a squadron to Europe right now and a deployment earlier this year to Saudi Arabia.

U.S. F-22s forward deploy to 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland

Twelve U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor aircraft assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron, Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, forward deployed, Aug. 4, 2022 to the 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland,

www.usafe.af.mil

Why the US Air Force Is Sending F-22 Raptors to the Middle East

The Air Force Just Upped the Game in the Middle East with F-22s: The Pentagon and the White House are taking seriously the conflict between the United Arab Emirates and Iran-backed Houthi rebels and raising the stakes. In a surprise development, the Air Force is sending a squadron of F-22...

www.19fortyfive.com

We'll agree to disagree. I don't see any reason why the plentiful F-35 force couldn't easily fill those positions; there is zero 5th gen competition in either place. In the gulf there isn't even *4th* gen competition. Both deployments strike me as more of a feel good exercise for US allies than a real military need. I feel the same way about USN carrier deployments to 5th fleet; the Gulf is a US lake ringed by allied bases including the sprawling, ever growing CentCom command center at Al Udied. Those CV deployments seem like an incredibly pointless waste of resources much bettered utilized for 7th fleet, IMO.

 

[bobbymike]

USAF Eyeing MQ-28 Ghost Bat For Next Gen Air Dominance Program

The U.S. Air Force secretary has confirmed that the service could buy the Australian drone as part of the NGAD tactical air combat program.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Avimimus]

We'll agree to disagree. I don't see any reason why the plentiful F-35 force couldn't easily fill those positions; there is zero 5th gen competition in either place. In the gulf there isn't even *4th* gen competition. Both deployments strike me as more of a feel good exercise for US allies than a real military need. I feel the same way about USN carrier deployments to 5th fleet; the Gulf is a US lake ringed by allied bases including the sprawling, ever growing CentCom command center at Al Udied. Those CV deployments seem like an incredibly pointless waste of resources much bettered utilized for 7th fleet, IMO.

I'm inclined to agree. If Russia did still have the budget for procurement and really stepped up Su-57 production, then it could easily be countered through increased F-35 production (which could also be sold off to allies as needed).

The only relevant theatre which could be used to argue for retention of the F-22 is the pacific (where increased performance defending Island chains or countering J-20 production could be valuable).

 

[X-39]

'Digital Century Series' Approach May Live On In USAF's Autonomous Plans​

DAYTON, Ohio—The U.S. Air Force’s short-lived “Digital Century Series” plan appears to be dead for future crewed fighters, but the service says the plan’s focus on rapidly iterating designs could be relevant for its future drones. In 2019, Will Roper, then the assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, announced his Digital Century Series idea as a new approach to buying future fighters.

Roper’s plan was to use new methods such as digital engineering to similarly design and build new aircraft quickly so the Air Force would not have to wait for a long, traditional acquisition.

However, this plan seems to have ended after Roper’s tenure and the adoption of a new approach to acquisition. Andrew Hunter, the current assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition, says the service is resource constrained and needs to focus on getting effective combat aircraft more so than changing designs.

“We can’t afford to do four different kinds, none of which actually develops into an operational capability.

”“We’ve got to develop an operational capability in a relatively quick period of time, so that does constrain how much iterative stuff we can do, at least do simultaneously.The Air Force is planning a “Collaborative Combat Aircraft,” (CCA) a loyal wingman that will fly with the Next Generation Air Dominance platform and provide weapons, sensors, electronic warfare or other capabilities.

'Digital Century Series' Approach May Live On In USAF's Autonomous Plans | Aviation Week Network

The U.S. Air Force’s short-lived “Digital Century Series” plan appears to be dead for future manned fighters, but the service says the plan’s focus on rapidly iterating designs could be relevant for its future drones.

aviationweek.com

 

[NeilChapman]

It seems to me the F-22 is at this point only aimed at one country/theater and the question should be "how many is enough?". The answer to that question would depend on how many could realistically be based in the WestPac in facilities that are expected to survive.

I'd take issue with that. There are at least two theaters other than WestPac where F-22 could be a player -- note the deployment of a squadron to Europe right now and a deployment earlier this year to Saudi Arabia.

U.S. F-22s forward deploy to 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland

Twelve U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor aircraft assigned to the 90th Fighter Squadron, Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, forward deployed, Aug. 4, 2022 to the 32nd Tactical Air Base, Łask, Poland,

www.usafe.af.mil

Why the US Air Force Is Sending F-22 Raptors to the Middle East

The Air Force Just Upped the Game in the Middle East with F-22s: The Pentagon and the White House are taking seriously the conflict between the United Arab Emirates and Iran-backed Houthi rebels and raising the stakes. In a surprise development, the Air Force is sending a squadron of F-22...

www.19fortyfive.com

We'll agree to disagree. I don't see any reason why the plentiful F-35 force couldn't easily fill those positions; there is zero 5th gen competition in either place. In the gulf there isn't even *4th* gen competition. Both deployments strike me as more of a feel good exercise for US allies than a real military need. I feel the same way about USN carrier deployments to 5th fleet; the Gulf is a US lake ringed by allied bases including the sprawling, ever growing CentCom command center at Al Udied. Those CV deployments seem like an incredibly pointless waste of resources much bettered utilized for 7th fleet, IMO.

Perhaps the point is to have overwhelming force, with deterrence being the objective. That, and the fact that the US likes to keep its options open. Not all allies will allow the US to fly particular missions from their bases.

 

[X-39]

Open, Networked, and Secure Avionics Are Enabling the Next Generation of Air Dominance - Air Force Magazine

Collins' Mosarc open system capabilities help align with emerging standards for rapid integration between mission and flight deck systems.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[Skunknotworks]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

 

[jsport]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

There are certain attributes unique to human decision-making that cannot be replicated by mathematically-oriented algorithms and machines.

 

[Forest Green]

There are certain attributes unique to human decision-making that cannot be replicated by mathematically-oriented algorithms and machines.

Like knowing that nosediving a plane into the ground to cause stack overflow in the register measuring force, is not the best way to land with minimal force on a simulator.

 

[FighterJock]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

Interesting, but where is the US Navy going to get the funding for the 1000 fifth and sixth generation fighters from?

 

[bring_it_on]

This will most certainly be true on a long enough time horizon. 300-400 F-35C's and as many FA-XX's along with whatever companion drones that come out of the broader NGAD efforts.

 

[Hanse]

This will most certainly be true on a long enough time horizon. 300-400 F-35C's and as many FA-XX's along with whatever companion drones that come out of the broader NGAD efforts.

Hopefully they buy enough FA-XXs for more than a token deployment like they're doing with the F-35Cs right now. They used to have two squadrons of 12 Tomcats per carrier. 24 FA-XXs, 24 F-35Cs, 4-5 E-2Ds, a dozen MQ-25s, half a dozen Growlers, and 6 choppers brings you to 76 aircraft. The carriers are designed for 90 so just fill out the remainder with combat drones. (We all know this is pie in the sky but I can dream.)

 

[Skunknotworks]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

Interesting, but where is the US Navy going to get the funding for the 1000 fifth and sixth generation fighters from?

I was wondering the same thing since NGAD is undoubtably expensive but only one can dream of such numbers just thought it was an interesting article even though it seems these numbers are not likely but I'm hoping for around 350-500 NGAD systems to come to fruition i wonder what the USAF NGAD numbers look like.

 

[FighterJock]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

Interesting, but where is the US Navy going to get the funding for the 1000 fifth and sixth generation fighters from?

I was wondering the same thing since NGAD is undoubtably expensive but only one can dream of such numbers just thought it was an interesting article even though it seems these numbers are not likely but I'm hoping for around 350-500 NGAD systems to come to fruition i wonder what the USAF NGAD numbers look like.

The USAF NGAD numbers will probably be around the same as the US Navy’s, because both are going to be expensive programs. I cannot see the USAF ordering more than 600 NGADS.

 

[totoro]

Frank Kendall or some other USAF official already said there will be fewer ngad manned planes than f22. But given that each manned plane will come with a flight of unmanned planes, 150 or so manned planes might translate to some 900 or so ngad component fighters, majority of which would be unmanned.

 

[Hanse]

Frank Kendall or some other USAF official already said there will be fewer ngad manned planes than f22. But given that each manned plane will come with a flight of unmanned planes, 150 or so manned planes might translate to some 900 or so ngad component fighters, majority of which would be unmanned.

Well then we'll have to make sure we're more competent at keeping others out of our network than we've been thus far.

 

[FighterJock]

Frank Kendall or some other USAF official already said there will be fewer ngad manned planes than f22. But given that each manned plane will come with a flight of unmanned planes, 150 or so manned planes might translate to some 900 or so ngad component fighters, majority of which would be unmanned.

Well then we'll have to make sure we're more competent at keeping others out of our network than we've been thus far.

You certainly do not want hackers hacking into the network when it happens to control unmanned fighters, I would want the NGAD's protected behind a properly maintained hardware firewall.

 

[F-2]

Frank Kendall or some other USAF official already said there will be fewer ngad manned planes than f22. But given that each manned plane will come with a flight of unmanned planes, 150 or so manned planes might translate to some 900 or so ngad component fighters, majority of which would be unmanned.

Well then we'll have to make sure we're more competent at keeping others out of our network than we've been thus far.

You certainly do not want hackers hacking into the network when it happens to control unmanned fighters, I would want the NGAD's protected behind a properly maintained hardware firewall.

The Network is simply a new battle space, the possibility of losing it is much less a peril then forfeiting it entirely.

 

[bobbymike]

Air Force faces key questions for next-gen fighters' drone wingmen - Breaking Defense

The US Air Force hopes to develop and field autonomous combat drones that would augment piloted fighters “in the mid to late 2020s,” Andrew Hunter, the Air Force’s top acquisition official, said in August.

breakingdefense.com

 

[Skunknotworks]

U.S. Navy to Arm Carriers With 1,000 Fifth and Sixth-Generation Stealth Fighters

A new plan released by Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Michael Gilday calls for a “family” of manned and unmanned sixth-generation aircraft.

nationalinterest.org

Interesting, but where is the US Navy going to get the funding for the 1000 fifth and sixth generation fighters from?

I was wondering the same thing since NGAD is undoubtably expensive but only one can dream of such numbers just thought it was an interesting article even though it seems these numbers are not likely but I'm hoping for around 350-500 NGAD systems to come to fruition i wonder what the USAF NGAD numbers look like.

The USAF NGAD numbers will probably be around the same as the US Navy’s, because both are going to be expensive programs. I cannot see the USAF ordering more than 600 NGADS.

So around 150 NGAD manned platforms and more unmanned modular platforms? either way I'm excited to see numbers finally.