tomo pauk

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Or, in other words, lets give to the FAA some attractive hardware that gets the job done and then some. Whether something later to be made earlier, or something that never flew, or a substantial mod to an existing design. Limitations of availability of engines, armament and electronics remain - use what was actually available to the designers/manufactures in the UK.
Bonus points if the stuff is likely to be used by other services/forces, and it is good enough to be licence produced.
 
In Post 100 on Page 3 of the Alternative RAF 1936-41 thread "The Powers That Be" decided to turn the Fairey P.4/34 into the Fulmar in 1936 instead of 1938. That should have been enough time for Blackburn and Boulton-Paul to build Fulmars instead of the Roc and Skua respectively.

In that post I also had 400 Hurricanes ordered from Gloster in 1936 instead of 400 Henleys. In the "real world" the Henley order was reduced to 200 which Gloster delivered between November 1938 and September 1940. However, the Hurricane was ahead of the Henley in development. I think Gloster could have delivered its first Hurricane in the first quarter of 1938. This is based on Hawker delivering its first Hurricane in October 1937 and Gloster delivering the last of the 225 Gladiators ordered in 1935 in February 1938.

In the "real world" the Air Ministry ordered 378 Gladiators from Gloster in 1937 and 1938. They were delivered between September 1938 and April 1940. These 378 aircraft included 98 that were converted to or completed as Sea Gladiators.

However, "in this version of history" the ordering of 400 Hurricanes in 1936 instead of the 400 Henleys results in the Air Ministry ordering 378 Hurricanes in 1937 and 1938 which included 98 aircraft that were converted to or completed as Sea Hurricanes.

That's 326 extra Fulmars instead of the 190 Skuas & 136 Rocs and 98 Sea Hurricanes instead of 98 Sea Gladiators. The improvement in firepower may be as useful as the improvement in performance.
 
Would you keep all those extra Fulmars as pure fighters though or be tempted to make them into fighter/bombers?

Sea Hurricane might not have been accepted as a concept pre-1940 by the Navy and with more Fulmars they might consider the 'eight-gun fighter' ticked off the equipment to-do list.

One thing that has to happen, don't let them add a torpedo to the Firebrand and maybe keep it with the Griffon and leave the Sabre for a Mk II version.
 
One thing that has to happen, don't let them add a torpedo to the Firebrand and maybe keep it with the Griffon and leave the Sabre for a Mk II version.

Hopefully the Firebrand never happens.
If I remember correctly from Norman Friedman's British Carrier Aviation (and I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this point) the specification that produced Firebrand was written to prove that it was the Admiralty's range and payload requirements were the cause of the poor performance of British naval fighters and not the second crewman.
 
Would you keep all those extra Fulmars as pure fighters though or be tempted to make them into fighter/bombers.
In the case of the 190 built by Blackburn instead of the Skua, yes. This is the relevant section from Post 100 in the RAF 1936-41 thread.
  • The changes to naval fighters are:
    • IOTL 190 Skuas and 135 Rocs were put on requisition from Blackburn on 6th June 1936. The Skuas were ordered from the Firm the next month. However, the Roc contract (for 136 aircraft instead of 135) wasn't let until April 1937. Furthermore, the aircraft were ordered from Boulton Paul instead of Blackburn.
    • ITTL the Admiralty and Air Ministry decided to turn the Fairey P.4/34 into the Fulmar in 1936 instead of 1938. Fairey's factories were busy building Battles and Swordfish so the 325 Fulmars were put on requisition from Blackburn instead of Fairey. In common with OTL 190 aircraft would be ordered in July 1936 and 136 in April 1937 for a total of 326 Fulmars instead of 190 Skuas and 190 Rocs. However, all the aircraft were ordered from Blackburn because the Air Ministry wanted Boulton Paul to concentrate on building Hurricanes.
    • AIUI the was Fulmar stressed for dive bombing and ITTL it was formally designated a Fighter Dive Bomber (F.D.B.) aircraft because some of them were being built instead of the Skua.
 
Sea Hurricane might not have been accepted as a concept pre-1940 by the Navy and with more Fulmars they might consider the 'eight-gun fighter' ticked off the equipment to-do list.
That's rather plausible because as far as I know the Sea Gladiator was a stop gap for the Fulmar. On the other hand the FAA needs an aircraft to "make up the numbers" while the Fulmars being built instead of the Roc and Skua are delivered.
 
If I remember correctly from Norman Friedman's British Carrier Aviation (and I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this point) the specification that produced Firebrand was written to prove that it was the Admiralty's range and payload requirements were the cause of the poor performance of British naval fighters and not the second crewman.

If that was the case, it is cringeworthy beyond belief.
 
For the Fulmar to be much better performer than it was historically, it will need a better engine. Both Mk.VIII and Mk.30 Merlins were with low-altitude supercharging, thus sacrificing the altitude capability (much to the comfort of the Axis bombers). So FAA/Fairey needs to get their hands on the Merlin X, alnd then on the 20 series - those were outfitted with 2-speed superchargers, making them very useful both down low and high up.
Alternatively, us the Hercules' 2-speed supercharged versions in the nose.
 
One thing that has to happen, don't let them add a torpedo to the Firebrand and maybe keep it with the Griffon and leave the Sabre for a Mk II version.

Hopefully the Firebrand never happens.
If I remember correctly from Norman Friedman's British Carrier Aviation (and I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this point) the specification that produced Firebrand was written to prove that it was the Admiralty's range and payload requirements were the cause of the poor performance of British naval fighters and not the second crewman.
Well the conclusion reached following submission of the various paper proposals in Jan 1940, according to Friedman (p208), was that it “showed”, rather than “proved”, that a second seat cost about 25mph airspeed. But that was not what the Admiralty had in mind nor set out to achieve when it drew up the specs in the first place.

In 1939 the RN began to look for a Skua replacement as a single engined two seat fighter as an escort fighter, then being the main role for RN fighters. At the same time it sought a turret fighter as a Roc replacement. These were N8/39 and N9/39 respectively. The intention was that they should be based on the same basic airframe. The submissions when received were disappointing so everyone was asked to re-tender. That was around Dec 1939.

But around the same time the RN discovered it had to undertake a new role, defence of its bases like Scapa Flow as the RAF didn’t then have the necessary resources. It also found its existing fighter aircraft were not fast enough to catch the intruders. So it was facing many challenges.

So thoughts began to turn to a “special purpose fighter” with a pared back spec - single seat, shorter range etc, being the only way to get increased speed. But it was still intended that it should be carrier capable with all the restrictions that that implied re take off/landing distances, stalling speeds, dimensions etc.

So in Dec 1939 word of the change of mind leaked out and the aircraft companies had to seek clarification of what the RN was now actually seeking. As a result, the turret fighter requirement was dropped, and they were asked to tender for two types:-
1. A two seat fixed gun fighter and
2. A single seat fixed gun fighter.
But the intention still seems to have been to base both types on the same basic airframe. So, for example Fairey tendered both single and twin seat aircraft with either Griffon or Sabre engines to spec N9/39. I suppose it made sense to someone to still base both types on the one airframe given the relatively low quantities required for RN use.

At the tender conference in Jan 1940, only one month later, the aircraft companies were asking why all this had not been thought about earlier and the RN was putting it down to war experience already showing that the pre-war spec sought was inadequate and higher performance was required even for the two seater. A distinct change in Admiralty policy. But it also highlighted just how rushed the whole process had become, especially with the single seat version. It must also have been a difficult meeting as there were 7 companies involved with multiple entries for one and/or other spec submitted and to be considered.

A decision was needed fast, so the Result was that the Fairey Griffon powered two seat design was chosen to fulfill one slot (becoming the Firefly in due course) and “...the Blackburn design with Hercules HE6M engine had valuable features which should be tried and an order for twenty-five aircraft was placed. (This became the Blackburn Firebrand).” (Quote from Fairey Firefly by W Harrison). That Blackburn design even had a fixed undercarriage per Friedman, which shows just how far it was from the Sabre engined retractable undercarriage aircraft that finally emerged a few months later in June 1940 to fulfill the new spec N11/40.

Around the same time it was agreed to extend Fulmar production beyond that originally envisaged, and to seek a navalised Spitfire as an interim aircraft for the single seat role. Then we get into the whole availability question, orders for Martlets etc.
 
Sea hurricane II.jpg
FAA want a 2 seat fighter (navigator role)
So what about this, with folding wing
With this wing folded, they enter in the lith of the Ark and illustrious (22ft wide)
 

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That was my 2 seater version for Sea Hurricane
But later in the war, was made by amercians. And actualy exist.
So RN keep presion to the Admiralty, and make the SH 2 seat (with navigator/observator crew) very early in the war
1642353597028.png

1642353411347.png
1642353560285.png

1642353442551.png
 
Were I to design a proper Sea Hurricane with folding wings, I would also move the radiator to an undernose position to make ditching safer and possibly somewhat improve the aerodynamics. If a folding-wing Sea Hurricane were developed pre-war, I would assume a rearward fold à la Fulmar would have been implemented. The thickness of the wing could also facilitate the installation of rather sizeable extra fuel tanks inside them, or does the internal structure of the wings preclude such a solution.

In my opinion the Bristol Type 148 is one of the lost opportunities of late 1930's It had excellent STOL characteristics, being designed to the same requirement as the Westland Lysander. Additionally, with a Taurus engine it had excellent performance (a top speed close to 300 mph). If I were to alter the procurement for the FAA in the 1930's, I would replace Skua with the Bristol Type 148, which would additionally cary the bonus of sharing its engine with the Fairey Albacore. Another possibility, this time for a single-seat fighter would be a stretched Vickers Venom with once again a Taurus. A torpedo-bomber version of the Fairey Battle with a Fairey Monarch engine would also be an interesting solution - something like a Grumman Avenger but potentially several years earlier. A Fulmar with dive brakes and a pivoting centreline bomb crutch would have been quite a good dive bomber to complement the Battle.

Later in the war, without a Monarch Battle in the play, I would prefer a Griffon-powered Fairey Barracuda (like the Mk. V) from the get-go instead of the lacklustre Merlin powered early versions. Another possible powerplant would of course be the Bristol Hercules. An accelerated de Havilland Sea Vampire or a tricycle undercariage Supermarine Attacker developed instead of the Spiteful and Seafang would also be interesting propositions. Think of FAA jet-interceptors being used against kamikazes around Okinawa or even operation Downfall. Maybe without Spiteful and Seafang as distractions, Supermarine could somewhat accelerate the development of the last Spitfire and Seafire variants. Seafire Mk. 47 or even 17 in use with the BPF during the Okinawa operations would also be quite something.
 
a tricycle undercariage Supermarine Attacker developed instead of the Spiteful and Seafang would also be interesting propositions.

But without the Spiteful and Seafang you don't get the Attacker's wing . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.
 
Were I to design a proper Sea Hurricane with folding wings, I would also move the radiator to an undernose position to make ditching safer and possibly somewhat improve the aerodynamics. If a folding-wing Sea Hurricane were developed pre-war, I would assume a rearward fold à la Fulmar would have been implemented. The thickness of the wing could also facilitate the installation of rather sizeable extra fuel tanks inside them, or does the internal structure of the wings preclude such a solution.

.
Topic
I find this. i don´t know if exist
1643923202057.jpeg
That is a Sea Hurricane
1643923265507.jpeg
Thinking in your idea
I do a mix of both
A Sea hurricane with RR Merlin with radiator under the nose.
1643923374408.jpeg
As for the wing folding, i think that a solution could be the Skua type
1643923509629.png
Just outside the landing gear
1643923623600.png
 
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a tricycle undercariage Supermarine Attacker developed instead of the Spiteful and Seafang would also be interesting propositions.

But without the Spiteful and Seafang you don't get the Attacker's wing . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.
I am of the opinion that a laminar flow wing would have been developed by Supermarine regardless of Spiteful. Imagine the Attacker with a wing developed for it from the get-go.
 
Were I to design a proper Sea Hurricane with folding wings, I would also move the radiator to an undernose position to make ditching safer and possibly somewhat improve the aerodynamics. If a folding-wing Sea Hurricane were developed pre-war, I would assume a rearward fold à la Fulmar would have been implemented. The thickness of the wing could also facilitate the installation of rather sizeable extra fuel tanks inside them, or does the internal structure of the wings preclude such a solution.

.
Topic
I find this. i don´t know if exist
View attachment 673459
That is a Sea Hurricane
View attachment 673460
Thinking in your idea
I do a mix of both
A Sea hurricane with RR Merlin with radiator under the nose.
View attachment 673461
As for the wing folding, i think that a solution could be the Skua type
View attachment 673462
Just outside the landing gear
View attachment 673463
That is exactly what I was thinking about. And yes, the way Skua's wings folded was superior to the Fulmar. Now imagine the FAA during the Norwegian campaign with folding-wing Sea Hurricane as its primary fighter and the Skua being solely employed as a dive-bomber and a snooper killer. The campaigns in the Eastern Mediterranean in 1940-41 and the Pacific / Indian Ocean in 1942 would also have been quite different with the FAA having a single-seat fighter with folding wings and performance perhaps somewhat superior to the F-4F. With the RN not needing Martlets, the USN could have been more quickly re-equiped with larger numbers of F-4F4s with the F-4F3s going to the Marines. That could have had a major impact at Coral Sea and Midway. I would also think that the early adaptation (1939?) of a folding-wing Sea Hurricane would accelerate the development of a folding-wing Seafire, with introduction possibly in early 1942, if pushed (I imagine Fairey or Westlands would have produced these). Sommerville with Seafires in April 1942 could have opened some quite interesting possibilities.
 
Were I to design a proper Sea Hurricane with folding wings, I would also move the radiator to an undernose position to make ditching safer and possibly somewhat improve the aerodynamics. If a folding-wing Sea Hurricane were developed pre-war, I would assume a rearward fold à la Fulmar would have been implemented. The thickness of the wing could also facilitate the installation of rather sizeable extra fuel tanks inside them, or does the internal structure of the wings preclude such a solution.

.
Topic
I find this. i don´t know if exist
View attachment 673459
That is a Sea Hurricane
View attachment 673460
Thinking in your idea
I do a mix of both
A Sea hurricane with RR Merlin with radiator under the nose.
View attachment 673461
As for the wing folding, i think that a solution could be the Skua type
View attachment 673462
Just outside the landing gear
View attachment 673463
That is exactly what I was thinking about. And yes, the way Skua's wings folded was superior to the Fulmar. Now imagine the FAA during the Norwegian campaign with folding-wing Sea Hurricane as its primary fighter and the Skua being solely employed as a dive-bomber and a snooper killer. The campaigns in the Eastern Mediterranean in 1940-41 and the Pacific / Indian Ocean in 1942 would also have been quite different with the FAA having a single-seat fighter with folding wings and performance perhaps somewhat superior to the F-4F. With the RN not needing Martlets, the USN could have been more quickly re-equiped with larger numbers of F-4F4s with the F-4F3s going to the Marines. That could have had a major impact at Coral Sea and Midway. I would also think that the early adaptation (1939?) of a folding-wing Sea Hurricane would accelerate the development of a folding-wing Seafire, with introduction possibly in early 1942, if pushed (I imagine Fairey or Westlands would have produced these). Sommerville with Seafires in April 1942 could have opened some quite interesting possibilities.
I like your idea, but you must´n forget the aircraft capacity of the carriers. (No problem with the Ark, Glorious and her sister -48 aircraft more or less each, but with the Illustrious class you have 36 -early model-)
You have the SH with folding wings, the Skua -dive bomber- and Swordfish 3 diferent platforms. when in reality you have 2: TRS and Skua as fighter-dive bomber.
Perhaps, you can anticipate -for the SH- the wing of the Hurricane II, with capacity for drop tank and bomb.
So in 1939/1940 you have the SH III (my fictional SH) with Skua style folding wing, but with capacity for this
1644002673178.png
and this
1644002698564.png
1644002750619.png
Later you add this at that wing
1644002851548.png
So you have 2 platform
SH III (as fighter with some bomber capacity)
Swordfish (torpedo bomber)
For the IJN break in the indian Ocean, (i was read that Sommerville like the Fulmar as reco planes). So you will need a reco plane with better high survival rate .
So you can have the Sefire with foding wing
Seafire IIC like this but the folding wing
1644003399399.png
The Albacores and this (reco role with 2 role defense fighter) put the name that you want
1644003234098.jpeg
 
The Illustrious class hangar was designed around 36 aircraft each c36ft long (30 Swordfish + 6 Skua). By 1940 when they entered service the air group was reduced to 33 aircraft each of c40ft (21 Albacore + 12+Fulmar). All loaded 3 abreast in the hangar.

BUT

A Seafire III with folding wings is only 36ft long and 13ft wide folded. So the space for 12 Fulmars can hold 20 folding wing Seafires. They pack 4 abreast in the hangar.

As for your folding wing Sea Hurricane, then 4 abreast in the hangar should be possible, but it is a bit longer at 32’3” for a Mk.II so 16 In place of 12 Fulmars.

And by 1942 the RN is beginning to use deck parks and outriggers so you can maybe squeeze a few more aboard.

The earlier carriers had narrower hangars so I don’t immediately know what the trade offs are. A couple of feet can make a big difference!
 
The Illustrious class hangar was designed around 36 aircraft each c36ft long (30 Swordfish + 6 Skua). By 1940 when they entered service the air group was reduced to 33 aircraft each of c40ft (21 Albacore + 12+Fulmar). All loaded 3 abreast in the hangar.

BUT

A Seafire III with folding wings is only 36ft long and 13ft wide folded. So the space for 12 Fulmars can hold 20 folding wing Seafires. They pack 4 abreast in the hangar.

As for your folding wing Sea Hurricane, then 4 abreast in the hangar should be possible, but it is a bit longer at 32’3” for a Mk.II so 16 In place of 12 Fulmars.

And by 1942 the RN is beginning to use deck parks and outriggers so you can maybe squeeze a few more aboard.

The earlier carriers had narrower hangars so I don’t immediately know what the trade offs are. A couple of feet can make a big difference!
EwenS
Frist
Thanks for the info
Second
Do you participate in the forum www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards?
So in 1939/40: 21 swordfish and 16 SH III (this is how i name my version SH with radiator under nose and folding wing) on Illustrious class
For the Indian Ocean, the RN could had 18 Seafire IIC or III with folding wing and 6 SH ( 2 seater) as reco plane) plaus the 21 Albacores
 
The Illustrious class hangar was designed around 36 aircraft each c36ft long (30 Swordfish + 6 Skua). By 1940 when they entered service the air group was reduced to 33 aircraft each of c40ft (21 Albacore + 12+Fulmar). All loaded 3 abreast in the hangar.

BUT

A Seafire III with folding wings is only 36ft long and 13ft wide folded. So the space for 12 Fulmars can hold 20 folding wing Seafires. They pack 4 abreast in the hangar.

As for your folding wing Sea Hurricane, then 4 abreast in the hangar should be possible, but it is a bit longer at 32’3” for a Mk.II so 16 In place of 12 Fulmars.

And by 1942 the RN is beginning to use deck parks and outriggers so you can maybe squeeze a few more aboard.

The earlier carriers had narrower hangars so I don’t immediately know what the trade offs are. A couple of feet can make a big difference!
EwenS
Frist
Thanks for the info
Second
Do you participate in the forum www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards?
So in 1939/40: 21 swordfish and 16 SH III (this is how i name my version SH with radiator under nose and folding wing) on Illustrious class
For the Indian Ocean, the RN could had 18 Seafire IIC or III with folding wing and 6 SH ( 2 seater) as reco plane) plaus the 21 Albacores
Yep, I post on Navweaps forums.

Both your complements fit in the hangar. But the second one only just. The spacing between the rows is at the bare minimum. So room to add a few more in a deck park.
 
The Illustrious class hangar was designed around 36 aircraft each c36ft long (30 Swordfish + 6 Skua). By 1940 when they entered service the air group was reduced to 33 aircraft each of c40ft (21 Albacore + 12+Fulmar). All loaded 3 abreast in the hangar.

BUT

A Seafire III with folding wings is only 36ft long and 13ft wide folded. So the space for 12 Fulmars can hold 20 folding wing Seafires. They pack 4 abreast in the hangar.

As for your folding wing Sea Hurricane, then 4 abreast in the hangar should be possible, but it is a bit longer at 32’3” for a Mk.II so 16 In place of 12 Fulmars.

And by 1942 the RN is beginning to use deck parks and outriggers so you can maybe squeeze a few more aboard.

The earlier carriers had narrower hangars so I don’t immediately know what the trade offs are. A couple of feet can make a big difference!
EwenS
Frist
Thanks for the info
Second
Do you participate in the forum www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards?
So in 1939/40: 21 swordfish and 16 SH III (this is how i name my version SH with radiator under nose and folding wing) on Illustrious class
For the Indian Ocean, the RN could had 18 Seafire IIC or III with folding wing and 6 SH ( 2 seater) as reco plane) plaus the 21 Albacores
Yep, I post on Navweaps forums.

Both your complements fit in the hangar. But the second one only just. The spacing between the rows is at the bare minimum. So room to add a few more in a deck park.
It seemed to me.
I forget to mention that, for the second complement (some of them in deck park).
 
Now, thinking of a Sea Hurricane with a beard radiator made me think of the Hawker Henley which also had a beard radiator. Maybe Glosters could have made Sea Hurricanes instead of Henleys. Maybe this would lead to the RAF Gladiators and Hurricanes near Narvik being FAA Sea Gladiators and Sea Hurricanes in this ATL and possibly leading to HMS Glorious avoiding its faith. I was also thinking about giving the later marks of the Sea Hurricane a stinger tail hook, an enlarged vertical stabilizer & rudder and a retractable tailwheel. Browning machine guns rechambered to 15 mm Besa or Vickers 25,4 mm autocannons (à la ARA Argentina) modified to belt feeding and with a shortened barrel could provide extra firepower before the arrival of the 20 mm Hispano. An additional benefit of the beard radiator, at least if the undercarriage is moved somewhat outboards is the availability of a centreline hardpoint. Think of a Sea Hurricane lugging a 1600 lb AP bomb, a 1000 lber and two 500 lbers or a large centreline drop tank!
 
A two-seat fighter version of the Henley in place of the Fulmar, perhaps ?

cheers,
Robin.
 
Now, thinking of a Sea Hurricane with a beard radiator made me think of the Hawker Henley which also had a beard radiator. Maybe Glosters could have made Sea Hurricanes instead of Henleys. Maybe this would lead to the RAF Gladiators and Hurricanes near Narvik being FAA Sea Gladiators and Sea Hurricanes in this ATL and possibly leading to HMS Glorious avoiding its faith. I was also thinking about giving the later marks of the Sea Hurricane a stinger tail hook, an enlarged vertical stabilizer & rudder and a retractable tailwheel. Browning machine guns rechambered to 15 mm Besa or Vickers 25,4 mm autocannons (à la ARA Argentina) modified to belt feeding and with a shortened barrel could provide extra firepower before the arrival of the 20 mm Hispano. An additional benefit of the beard radiator, at least if the undercarriage is moved somewhat outboards is the availability of a centreline hardpoint. Think of a Sea Hurricane lugging a 1600 lb AP bomb, a 1000 lber and two 500 lbers or a large centreline drop tank!
Topi
wheN I do the Sea Hurricane (2 seat) with under nose radiator, Its remenber me the Henley
 
I have been wondering lately if Force Z could have been saved by both PoW and Repulse carrying four floatplane Spitfire Mk Vs fitted with folding wings, strengthening for catapult launch and Merlin XX. Maybe having also Exeter, Emerald and Enterprise join bringing the number of float Spitfires to 12. Even such a handful of fighters could have helped to break up the torpedo attack runs at least to some extent, maybe preventing the fatal hit on PoW's shaft or the hammer-and-anvil attack on Repulse and buy time for land-based Buffalos to arrive. Of course, the ships could not recover the Spitfires amidst the action, so they would have to fly to a shore base and fly back to their ships after the attack or even resuply and fly back and help repulse further attacks. This woul, however, require the earlier development of the floatplane Spitfires and admiralty deciding to issue such planes to battleships, battlecruisers and cruisers operating in waters with an air threat without friendly air cover. The refit of Enterprise and deployment of Exeter to Far East would have had to be accelerated for them to be present with Force Z, but the Emerald ought to have been available. Furthermore, after the arrival of Indomitable and preferably also Hermes, the Spitfires could be based in Singapore to help in local air defence. Even with floats and the extra weight of folding wings, a Spitfire V with Merlin XX ought to be match to Oscars and Zeros and comfortably superior to anything else the Japanese might throw at it. Maybe this could lead to small numbers of floatplane Spitfires being deployed to Pacific and Indian Ocean islands with no airstrips like the Christmas or Cocos Islands, for example...
 
The stillborn Spitfire Mk III had a Merlin XX. Also, a floatplane version was in the works. Did the bombers that attacked Force Z have fighter escort? If not, the Spits would have shredded the Nells and the Bettys as the Mk IIIs were planned to have 12 x .30 cal MGs.
 
The stillborn Spitfire Mk III had a Merlin XX. Also, a floatplane version was in the works. Did the bombers that attacked Force Z have fighter escort? If not, the Spits would have shredded the Nells and the Bettys as the Mk IIIs were planned to have 12 x .30 cal MGs.
To my knowledge, the attacking G3Ms and G4Ms had no fighter escort. Thinking about this a bit more, even Blenheim fighters would have been deadly against the attacking Nells and Beatties. Floatplane Spitfires would have been absolute murder. Using the strengthened Mk III fuselage and wing as the basis for a catapult-launched folding wing floatplane Spitfire and also the Seafire might have been wiser than just converting the Mk V. Having a Seafire with folding wings based on Spitfire III, capable of ~375 MPH speed and 3500 fpm climb with sufficiently strengthened airframe, some extra internal fuel tanks in wings, under the pilot's seat or in the rear fuselage and with teardrop-shaped drop tanks available in early 1942 would give the Japanese a nasty surprise in the Pacific or Indian Ocean and would also help in the Malta Convoys. The problem would be production capacity. Maybe ordering Spitfires from Canadian Vicker in 1938 might enable them to be produced in Canada beginning in late 1940 or early 1941. Having a naval fighter with performance comparable to the Hellcat in British service in late 1941 or early 1942 might even prompt licenced production in the US, though I find that unlikely.

Maybe writing a realistic timeline where cobbled-up equipment and units save Malaya à la April 1942 Alternate Indian Ocean on AH.com would be fun. Think of Floatplane Spitfires, Henleys, Battles, Skuas, Blenheims, Gladiators, fighter Masters (fitted with old Merlins or supercharged Mercuries), improvised motor torpedo boats, Light Tank Mk VIs, Matilda Is, improvised tank destroyers on Unviersal Carrier chassis (maybe utilising 15 mm BESA, 20 mm Oerlikon or even old pom-poms), and Great War artillery being employed using a modern command structures and training to repulse the Japanese. That would be quite something. Sorry for the OT.
 
In an alternate time-line, Canadian Car and Factory never build Hurricanes. Instead, CCF focusses on building Grumman F4 Wildcats/Martlets and F6 Hellcats for the Fleet Air Arm.
Remember that CCF got their start building Grumman biplanes under license.
 
Maybe writing a realistic timeline where cobbled-up equipment and units save Malaya à la April 1942 Alternate Indian Ocean on AH.com would be fun. Think of Floatplane Spitfires, Henleys, Battles, Skuas, Blenheims, Gladiators, fighter Masters (fitted with old Merlins or supercharged Mercuries),

Send Defiants? Skuas are certainly excellent thing, too bad much more of them was not made, with 1000 HP Pegasus engine. The best thing might've been to send Dowding there...
BTW - all Mercury engines were supercharged. The last non-supercharged aero engines in ww2 were the V12 types: BMW VI (on Do 17 mostly) and Fiat A.30 (on Fiat CR.32).
 
In an alternate time-line, Canadian Car and Factory never build Hurricanes. Instead, CCF focusses on building Grumman F4 Wildcats/Martlets and F6 Hellcats for the Fleet Air Arm.
Remember that CCF got their start building Grumman biplanes under license.
I think a Sea Hurricane with folding wings, a beard radiator and some extra fuel and Merlin XX would suit FAA's needs better than the Wildcat, being potentially somewhat faster both in level speed and climb rate which would be especially important in the Mediterranean. Having four 20 mm Hispanos would also come in handy against He-111s, Ju-88s and SM-79s.
 
In an alternate time-line, Canadian Car and Factory never build Hurricanes. Instead, CCF focusses on building Grumman F4 Wildcats/Martlets and F6 Hellcats for the Fleet Air Arm.
Remember that CCF got their start building Grumman biplanes under license.
I think a Sea Hurricane with folding wings, a beard radiator and some extra fuel and Merlin XX would suit FAA's needs better than the Wildcat, being potentially somewhat faster both in level speed and climb rate which would be especially important in the Mediterranean. Having four 20 mm Hispanos would also come in handy against He-111s, Ju-88s and SM-79s.

Extra 200-300 HP between sea level and ~15000 ft would've come in handy for the Hurricane II vs. the Wildcat in 1941-43. Wildcat was found lacking when it was required to stop the bogey that is slightly above it and in fast cruise.
 
I th
Maybe writing a realistic timeline where cobbled-up equipment and units save Malaya à la April 1942 Alternate Indian Ocean on AH.com would be fun. Think of Floatplane Spitfires, Henleys, Battles, Skuas, Blenheims, Gladiators, fighter Masters (fitted with old Merlins or supercharged Mercuries),

Send Defiants? Skuas are certainly excellent thing, too bad much more of them was not made, with 1000 HP Pegasus engine. The best thing might've been to send Dowding there...
BTW - all Mercury engines were supercharged. The last non-supercharged aero engines in ww2 were the V12 types: BMW VI (on Do 17 mostly) and Fiat A.30 (on Fiat CR.32).
I think the Pegasus might have too large a diameter for the Skua. A Taurus or Hercules would fit better and provide more power than the Pegasus. I like the Skua but IMO something based on the Bristol 148 would have been better thanks to far superior aerodynamics.

I got mixed up with the Mercury. I am under the impression that the Master Mk II used a low-powered version of the Mercury. Preferably the locally modified fighter Masters would have a higher-power Mercury of a Gladiator or Blenheim or even an early mark Merlin.
 
I think the Pegasus might have too large a diameter for the Skua. A Taurus or Hercules would fit better and provide more power than the Pegasus. I like the Skua but IMO something based on the Bristol 148 would have been better thanks to far superior aerodynamics.

Both Pegasus and Perseus were with diameter of 55in.
Hercules adds another 500 kg to the nose in from of increase of dry weight, heavier engine bearer, bigger/heavier prop and bigger/heavier oil system. Fuel required is up by 50%? A working Taurus is probably better; weight addition of more manageable ~150 kg (just the dry weight).
Bristol 148 is certainly an interesting aircraft.

I got mixed up with the Mercury. I am under the impression that the Master Mk II used a low-powered version of the Mercury. Preferably the locally modified fighter Masters would have a higher-power Mercury of a Gladiator or Blenheim or even an early mark Merlin.

Trainers used the Mercuries with supercharger gearing set for lower altitudes. Yes, for 'normal' fighter duties the Mercury VII; VIII or XV is better, due to it's supercharger having it's gearing set for higher altitudes, while the use of 100 oct improves low-alt power.
 
I think the Pegasus might have too large a diameter for the Skua. A Taurus or Hercules would fit better and provide more power than the Pegasus. I like the Skua but IMO something based on the Bristol 148 would have been better thanks to far superior aerodynamics.

Both Pegasus and Perseus were with diameter of 55in.
Hercules adds another 500 kg to the nose in from of increase of dry weight, heavier engine bearer, bigger/heavier prop and bigger/heavier oil system. Fuel required is up by 50%? A working Taurus is probably better; weight addition of more manageable ~150 kg (just the dry weight).
Bristol 148 is certainly an interesting aircraft.

I got mixed up with the Mercury. I am under the impression that the Master Mk II used a low-powered version of the Mercury. Preferably the locally modified fighter Masters would have a higher-power Mercury of a Gladiator or Blenheim or even an early mark Merlin.

Trainers used the Mercuries with supercharger gearing set for lower altitudes. Yes, for 'normal' fighter duties the Mercury VII; VIII or XV is better, due to it's supercharger having it's gearing set for higher altitudes, while the use of 100 oct improves low-alt power.
I was under the impression that the Perseus and Mercury were the same size, but apparently this only applied to displacement, the Perseus, at least according to Wikipedia having the same diameter of 55 inches which seems odd considering that the Pegasus had a larger displacement. Maybe the increase in diameter was due to sleeve valves.
 
The stillborn Spitfire Mk III had a Merlin XX. Also, a floatplane version was in the works. Did the bombers that attacked Force Z have fighter escort? If not, the Spits would have shredded the Nells and the Bettys as the Mk IIIs were planned to have 12 x .30 cal MGs.
My recollection is that the proposed Mk III armament was six 20mm Hispano cannons.

a tricycle undercariage Supermarine Attacker developed instead of the Spiteful and Seafang would also be interesting propositions.

But without the Spiteful and Seafang you don't get the Attacker's wing . . . ;)

cheers,
Robin.
The Spiteful wing was first tried grafted onto a standard Spitfire XIV. You can have Attacker without Spiteful/Seafang, but it requires Supermarine to accept at an early stage that its piston-engine development program and post-Spitfire legacy are at an end.
 
In an alternate time-line, Canadian Car and Factory never build Hurricanes. Instead, CCF focusses on building Grumman F4 Wildcats/Martlets and F6 Hellcats for the Fleet Air Arm.
Remember that CCF got their start building Grumman biplanes under license.
Canadian Vickers did at one point have an agreement to licence-build the F6F-3 as the FV-1 but no contract was ever signed.
 
In an alternate time-line, Canadian Car and Factory never build Hurricanes. Instead, CCF focusses on building Grumman F4 Wildcats/Martlets and F6 Hellcats for the Fleet Air Arm.
Remember that CCF got their start building Grumman biplanes under license.
Canadian Vickers did at one point have an agreement to licence-build the F6F-3 as the FV-1 but no contract was ever signed.

Apparently, a contract was signed for the FV-1s but then cancelled before construction began. At the time, Canadian Vickers was caught up with producing Catalinas and Cansos (CL-1) for the RAF, USN, USAAF, RCAF, and others. The parent firm was also trying to shed its aviation department (and succeeded in 1944 with the creation of Canadair). Likely both issues played their parts in the FV-1 cancellation.

As for Canadian Car and Foundry "building Grumman biplanes under license." It would be more accurate to say that CCF assembled the G-23 Goblins (from fuselages provided by Bethpage and Brewster-built wing sets). The distinction matters because - despite creating the one-off prototype Gregor FDB - CCF didn't then have the capability of mass-producing monocoque fuselages. That was why Elsie MacGill recommended building the Hurricane (and, later, Sea Hurricane) at Fort William.

Ironically, Canadian Vickers did have some experience with stressed-skin aluminum construction - starting with aluminum floats, then flying boat hull design (Vedette VI and Vancouver types for the prewar RCAF), before moving on to the licensed Northrop Delta utility/patrol aircraft.

So, maybe that 'FV-1' should have been a 1939 Canadian Vickers Martlet?
 
My recollection is that the proposed Mk III armament was six 20mm Hispano cannons.
The 12 30 cal setup was one suggestion, They also looked into 6 50 cal, along with the 6 20mm, and one or two others. All on paper, of course. Assuming everything went right, a float Spitfire III would just be operational in time for Z force.
 

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