North American F-86 Sabre - special variants and projects

[Deltafan]

Hi !

For some days i have seen a little article (i don't remember where :-\ , maybe in the french Air & Cosmos Magazine) about a supersonic F-86. It was a modified canadian F-86 with a mightier Orenda engine and a modified fuselage. But the prototype failed to achieve expected performances and this plane ended as a QF-86 target.

A forum's member knows something about this plane ?

 

[Just call me Ray]

I'm guessing it's the XF-93 (or at least similiar to it)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_YF-93

 

[Rickshaw]

The CAC Sabre which had an Avon engine was transonic. Does that count?

 

[Antonio]

I'm guessing it's the XF-93 (or at least similiar to it)

The XF-93 was a different beast and neither a supersonic design.

Studies at North American for a supersonic Sabre existed under designation "Sabre 45". The idea, from 1949, was to replace the 35º wing with a new 45º one coupled with a more powerful engine then in development (P&W J57). An all weather configuration was offered to USAF but the military requested a daytime version. The final configuration led to the F-100 Super Sabre.

I have nothing about this Orenda Sabre but I'll keep on searching

 

[LowObservable]

YF-93 thrust/weight ratio 0.36:1.... Gulfstream V 0.4:1... and by the way the YF-93 number is WITH burner!

Arf! Arf!

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Canadair CL-13E, Sabre Mk.5 23021, c/n 811, NAE research aircraft, MAS FS(N1049D) crashed White Sands 1/2/80.

Pics from 'The Canadair Sabre', Larry Milberry, CANAV 1986

Cheers, Jon

 

[Deltafan]

Thanks Jon

 

[Orionblamblam]

Original, North American F-86, Wind Tunnel Test Model

[link no longer active]

 

[Steve Pace]

Original, North American F-86, Wind Tunnel Test Model
http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-North-American-F-86-Wind-Tunnel-Test-Model_W0QQitemZ320568707479QQcategoryZ86954QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m8QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DMW%26its%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D5%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6637177726201426368

I do believe it to be the pre F-100 known as the Sabre 45... SP

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Missing link or evolutionary dead-end?

 

[aim9xray]

The fuselage looks like a missing link: the Advanced Sabre or Sabre 45 perhaps. The wings, however are F-100D/F wings. The model also has the original horizontal stabilator, as well.

 

[Pioneer]

G'day gents

I am once again going through my loved copy of Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978

In it is some great pictures of manufacturers models of the North American Aviation 'Advanced F-86' & 'Sabre 45' projects? (page 50 & 51) - the pre F-100 Super Sabre!

Does anyone have any profile / 3-view drawings and performance specifications of either of these designs?

Your assistance will be greatly appriciated

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Sorry here are some photos from American Secret Projects Fighters & Interceptors 1945-1978 of models of the 'Advanced F-86 Day Fighter' (left) (by Jonathan Rigutto) and the 'Sabre 45 Air Superiority Fighter' (right) (by Jonathan Rigutto)

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

Just a friendly nudge to see if anyone has more information and profile drawings etc..... ;D


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Stargazer]

Topics merged.

 

[Spook]

Also there was a modified F-86 to test F-103 Periscope concept... the pictures had been already posted in another topic.. Does that get counted?

 

[Arjen]

Also there was a modified F-86 to test F-103 Periscope concept... the pictures had been already posted in another topic.. Does that get counted?

I think you're referring to this modified Republic F-84G.

 

[Stargazer]

On a related note (but not quite an "F-86 variant" as such):

• What on Earth was the « Bubimat »???

 

[Stargazer]

Several of us have pondered over the years what the "F2J" might have been, even on this very forum, but here is a January 29, 1951 article from Aviation Week which clearly states the U.S. Navy's plans to procure the F-86D as... the F2J.

 

[Pioneer]

Several of us have pondered over the years what the "F2J" might have been, even on this very forum, but here is a January 29, 1951 article from Aviation Week which clearly states the U.S. Navy's plans to procure the F-86D as... the F2J.

So what came of the USN /F2J/F-86D derivative??

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Pioneer]

On the topic of an all-weather F2J/F-86D, I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of whether NAA studied a traditional two-seat all-weather interceptor derivative of its F-86 Sabre design, before it derived the then highly technical F-86D single-seat all-weather interceptor?


Regards
Pioneer

 

[riggerrob]

On a related note (but not quite an "F-86 variant" as such):

• What on Earth was the « Bubimat »???

Bubimat looks like it was designed to melt ice on runways.
The RCAF experimented with a similar system for de-icing their F-86 Sabres before take-off. They parked a pair of Sabres tail-to-tail with the gap slightly wider than the wingspan. They started both engines, then taxied a third Sabre between them.

 

[Grey Havoc]

On the topic of an all-weather F2J/F-86D, I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of whether NAA studied a traditional two-seat all-weather interceptor derivative of its F-86 Sabre design, before it derived the then highly technical F-86D single-seat all-weather interceptor?


Regards
Pioneer

I think they did indeed, but I can't remember any details at the moment, sorry.

 

[Pioneer]

On the topic of an all-weather F2J/F-86D, I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of whether NAA studied a traditional two-seat all-weather interceptor derivative of its F-86 Sabre design, before it derived the then highly technical F-86D single-seat all-weather interceptor?


Regards
Pioneer

I think they did indeed, but I can't remember any details at the moment, sorry.

Thanks for your response just the same Grey Havoc

Regards
Pioneer

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Several of us have pondered over the years what the "F2J" might have been, even on this very forum, but here is a January 29, 1951 article from Aviation Week which clearly states the U.S. Navy's plans to procure the F-86D as... the F2J.

So what came of the USN /F2J/F-86D derivative??

Regards
Pioneer

The FJ Fury series was the USN's development of a F-86 derivative that started with the original XF-86 "Jet Mustang." NAA and the USAF abandoned it shortly after WW 2 ended, but the USN continued development for a strike fighter.



The USN then decided to go with a variant of the F-86E as the FJ-2. This designation was because Congress was not approving new designs but was giving massive funding to upgrade existing ones. Otherwise, the FJ-2 would have become the F2J a totally new aircraft.

Anyway, the F-86E as the NA-179, 181, 185 (variously) was modified to take 4 20mm Colt Oerlikon copies from WW 2 as they were intended mostly for ground support. The plane had all the usual navalization and included a longer nose wheel to increase the angle of attack on take off.

The FJ-3 was a much more modified F-86 and was no longer really compatible with the USAF version.

The final FJ-4 (AF-1E) was a completely different machine that had no relationship to the F-86 series other than a vague resemblance.

 

[ggova]

Hi all,
Here is another model of a NAA F-86 Advanced Day Fighter in 1/30th scale that came up for sale last week.
Also attached a close-up photo of the nose section.....
Hope you enjoy.

 

[Deleted member 2278]

Not sure if this is the right place but BLC on a FJ-3 Fury was new to me.

NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) 19930089601: A Flight Investigation of Area-suction and Blowing Boundary-layer Control on the Trailing-edge Flaps of a 35 Degree Swept-wing-carrier-type Airplane : NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) : Free Downl

archive.org

 

[Petrus]

On the topic of an all-weather F2J/F-86D, I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of whether NAA studied a traditional two-seat all-weather interceptor derivative of its F-86 Sabre design, before it derived the then highly technical F-86D single-seat all-weather interceptor?


Regards
Pioneer

I think they did indeed, but I can't remember any details at the moment, sorry.

If my memory serves me well, an all-weather F-86 variant for NATO countries, which eventually became F-86K, initially was to be a two-seater. Such was a requirement of the countries in question. Then it turned out that the radar operator was not necessary, so F-86K remained single-seater.
Piotr

 

[Pioneer]

On the topic of an all-weather F2J/F-86D, I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of whether NAA studied a traditional two-seat all-weather interceptor derivative of its F-86 Sabre design, before it derived the then highly technical F-86D single-seat all-weather interceptor?


Regards
Pioneer

I think they did indeed, but I can't remember any details at the moment, sorry.

If my memory serves me well, an all-weather F-86 variant for NATO countries, which eventually became F-86K, initially was to be a two-seater. Such was a requirement of the countries in question. Then it turned out that the radar operator was not necessary, so F-86K remained single-seater.
Piotr

Thank you for your replies Grey Havoc & Petrus

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Justo Miranda]

Canadair CL-13E, Sabre Mk.5 23021, c/n 811, NAE research aircraft, MAS FS(N1049D) crashed White Sands 1/2/80.

Pics from 'The Canadair Sabre', Larry Milberry, CANAV 1986

Cheers, Jon

Area rule?

 

[Apophenia]

Canadair CL-13E, Sabre Mk.5 23021, c/n 811, NAE research aircraft, MAS FS(N1049D) crashed White Sands 1/2/80.

Pics from 'The Canadair Sabre', Larry Milberry, CANAV 1986

Cheers, Jon

Area rule?

Yes.

From CASM's Canadair CL-13B / F-86 Sabre Mk 6 RCAF Golden Hawks Serial 23651, Bill Upton, page 9:

"Two Canadair Sabre aircraft were modified under the auspices of the Uplands-based CEPE [Central Experimental and Proving Establishment] and the NAE [National Aeronautical Establishment, Ottawa] for research and test purposes of thrust augmentation and aerodynamics improvements. The first modification went to former RCAF Sabre Mk 5 [RCAF] serial 23021 [c/n 811]. From May to July 1955, Canadair heavily modified the exterior contours of this aircraft with sonic drag reducing fairings made out of wood and aluminum, to produce Richard Whitcomb’s area-rule or “Coke-bottle” shape. Now designated the CL-13E, numerous flight tests were performed by the NAE in 1956 without showing any major performance improvements. ..."

 

[Justo Miranda]

NA 140

 

[Basil]

Not sure if this is the right place but BLC on a FJ-3 Fury was new to me.

NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) 19930089601: A Flight Investigation of Area-suction and Blowing Boundary-layer Control on the Trailing-edge Flaps of a 35 Degree Swept-wing-carrier-type Airplane : NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS) : Free Downl

archive.org

Thanks, very interesting.

Another source:

Flight Research at Ames: Fifty-Seven Years of Development and Validation of Aeronautical Technology - NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)

This NASA special publication presents a general overview of the flight research that has been conducted at Ames Research Center over the last 57 years. Icing research, transonic model testing, aerodynamics, variable stability aircraft, boundary layer control, short takeoff and landing (STOL)...

history.nasa.gov

 

[Deleted member 2278]

There is a (rare) photo of the F-86F(R) equipped with the Rocketdyne AR2 on P17 of the Summer 2010 edition of the North American Aviation Retiree Bulletin, viewable in this thread: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ion-bald-eagles-retiree-bulletin.30898/page-2

​

 

[EwenS]

Several of us have pondered over the years what the "F2J" might have been, even on this very forum, but here is a January 29, 1951 article from Aviation Week which clearly states the U.S. Navy's plans to procure the F-86D as... the F2J.

So what came of the USN /F2J/F-86D derivative??

Regards
Pioneer

The FJ Fury series was the USN's development of a F-86 derivative that started with the original XF-86 "Jet Mustang." NAA and the USAF abandoned it shortly after WW 2 ended, but the USN continued development for a strike fighter.

View attachment 653965

The USN then decided to go with a variant of the F-86E as the FJ-2. This designation was because Congress was not approving new designs but was giving massive funding to upgrade existing ones. Otherwise, the FJ-2 would have become the F2J a totally new aircraft.

Anyway, the F-86E as the NA-179, 181, 185 (variously) was modified to take 4 20mm Colt Oerlikon copies from WW 2 as they were intended mostly for ground support. The plane had all the usual navalization and included a longer nose wheel to increase the angle of attack on take off.

The FJ-3 was a much more modified F-86 and was no longer really compatible with the USAF version.

The final FJ-4 (AF-1E) was a completely different machine that had no relationship to the F-86 series other than a vague resemblance.

Does anyone know why the USN switched the design of F2J/FJ-2 from being based on the all weather F-86D to the day fighter F-86E airframe?

What suddenly struck me was that the article in post #19 was dated 29 Jan 1951. Over on Joe Baugher's site, he gives the date of NAA beginning work on the NA-181 proposal for the USN as 30 Jan, with the pitch being made on 6 Feb and a contract being awarded on the 10th.

Just seems odd to me. Did the journalist simply get it wrong or did something actually change?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Several of us have pondered over the years what the "F2J" might have been, even on this very forum, but here is a January 29, 1951 article from Aviation Week which clearly states the U.S. Navy's plans to procure the F-86D as... the F2J.

So what came of the USN /F2J/F-86D derivative??

Regards
Pioneer

The FJ Fury series was the USN's development of a F-86 derivative that started with the original XF-86 "Jet Mustang." NAA and the USAF abandoned it shortly after WW 2 ended, but the USN continued development for a strike fighter.

View attachment 653965

The USN then decided to go with a variant of the F-86E as the FJ-2. This designation was because Congress was not approving new designs but was giving massive funding to upgrade existing ones. Otherwise, the FJ-2 would have become the F2J a totally new aircraft.

Anyway, the F-86E as the NA-179, 181, 185 (variously) was modified to take 4 20mm Colt Oerlikon copies from WW 2 as they were intended mostly for ground support. The plane had all the usual navalization and included a longer nose wheel to increase the angle of attack on take off.

The FJ-3 was a much more modified F-86 and was no longer really compatible with the USAF version.

The final FJ-4 (AF-1E) was a completely different machine that had no relationship to the F-86 series other than a vague resemblance.

Does anyone know why the USN switched the design of F2J/FJ-2 from being based on the all weather F-86D to the day fighter F-86E airframe?

What suddenly struck me was that the article in post #19 was dated 29 Jan 1951. Over on Joe Baugher's site, he gives the date of NAA beginning work on the NA-181 proposal for the USN as 30 Jan, with the pitch being made on 6 Feb and a contract being awarded on the 10th.

Just seems odd to me. Did the journalist simply get it wrong or did something actually change?

Because the FJ was intended primarily as an attack aircraft or fighter-bomber, not a fighter or interceptor. This is far more obvious with the later FJ-4 (aka AF-1E) where the Fury no longer had much in common with the USAF F-86 other than some vague appearance similarities. There was no need for all-weather air-to-air capability.

All-weather air-to-air capability was handled by either the F2H-3 Banshee or F3H Demon. The FJ might be seen as the A-7 of its time.

 

[El Hado Helado]

Canadair CL-13E, Sabre Mk.5 23021, c/n 811, NAE research aircraft, MAS FS(N1049D) crashed White Sands 1/2/80.

Pics from 'The Canadair Sabre', Larry Milberry, CANAV 1986

Cheers, Jon

Ugly and dumb attempt, I'd say.
Anyone to draw a good area-ruled fuselage for MiG-15?
Blessings +

 

[Flogger15]

New member here, I found the site researching the NAA Advanced F-86 Day Fighter. Very nice site!

I was fortunate enough to pick up an original NAA model at an estate sale this week but, it's not in the best condition. The paint is flaking off as shown in the pictures, areas around the canopy are pretty good. Question is, would you strip it and repaint or clear coat it, as is, to preserve the paint? It's nice laminate wood and solid. Just over 18" long.

 

[Orionblamblam]

My preference:
Do some *basic* restoration. Paint in the spots where paint has flaked off, but don't overpaint or strip existing paint. Try to get the existing paint stuck back down via adhesive, carefully worked in. Keep as much of the original as you can.

 

[martinbayer]

For models like this I'd recommend following established museum quality restoration guidelines and protocols for original paintings or other artwork.