Convair F-102 Delta Dagger Development and Derivatives

[hesham]

Hi,


I found this strange drawing to F 102,may be,they meant Convair F-102,
but please look to its air intakes !,I think this a French imagine to F-102
before it appeared.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVION-AIRCRAFT-CHASSEUR-AILES-JET-FIGHTER-WINGS-DELTA-F-102-USA-IMAGE-ANCIENNE-/161090332155?pt=FR_YO_Collections_ObjetsPublicitaires_Chromos&hash=item2581bb65fb

 

[fightingirish]

With 2 engines and the intakes above the wings/fuselage, it reminds me more of the seaplane fighter Convair F2Y Sea Dart.

 

[hesham]

That's right my dear Fightingirish.

 

[Triton]

Model of Convair F-102 Delta Dagger concept marked "CONFIDENTIAL" on base found on eBay. Model is made of wood. Thoughts? Real?

Source:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-RARE-USAF-Convair-F-102-Delta-Dagger-15-Desk-Model-CONFIDENTIAL/251931829551?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D327d7fa195f24c58bbdd8c753aa90b58%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D261868159730

 

[Triton]

Photo of Convair YF-102 circa 1955.

Source:
http://www.thenorthspin.com/page_official_nasa_dryden3.html

 

[circle-5]

Every factory YF-102 model I've seen shows the boundary layer separators at the intakes. These also appear on the MX-1554 pre-design models that preceded the YF-102, and even on the small, plastic desk models. Their purpose and configuration were well-established by then. Every Convair document from that period shows how the boundary layer air was ducted to the refrigeration intercooler. Based on the inaccurate and questionable intakes shown here, I have to wonder about this model. It's definitely vintage, but I think it was made by a hobbyist, not by Convair. If someone knows more, please do come forward ...

 

[Triton]

Thank you for your response, circle-5. Were the factory models you have seen made of wood?

 

[circle-5]

Those I have at home are a mix of wood and fiberglass. They are also about 35% larger than this one -- which is another issue: all the Convair delta factory models I've seen are at the same scale, but not this one, oddball model. However, another SPF member thinks it's authentic ...

 

[hesham]

Hi,

here is a Model of XF-102.

Schiffer - Convair F-102 Delta Dagger

 

[Stargazer]

here is a Model of XF-102.

I have my doubts about the "XF-102" designation... Not kosher I'd say. Thoughts, anyone?

 

[Steve Pace]

I believe, at first, the '102 might have been known as the XF-102 but since the XF-92A proved the eXperimental part of the delta winged program the '102 was given the prototype designation YF-102 instead. Just my gut feeling. -SP

 

[hesham]

From Cielo 1953 12,

here is a speculative drawing to Convair F-102 fighter.

 

[AN/AWW-14(V)]

QF/PQM-102 Target System, Project PAVE DEUCE, 1975

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b009682.pdf

 

[taildragger]

I believe, at first, the '102 might have been known as the XF-102 but since the XF-92A proved the eXperimental part of the delta winged program the '102 was given the prototype designation YF-102 instead. Just my gut feeling. -SP

Historically, I believe that the distinction between X, Y and No prefix was the level of fabrication tooling that the goverment would pay for to be used in the construction of the airframe. An XF airplane was hand-built, a YF airplane was built using soft tooling and an F airplane was built on a series production line. By this logic, the first example of an "ordered straight off the drawing board" aircraft like the B-26 would be designated B-26. It was only indirectly tied to the level of confidence in the design. The complexity of modern airplanes limits the ability to build without tooling and the amount of hardware evolution possible after the first example is built so we see fewer X and Y planes.

 

[fightingirish]

Please notice the first shown model, the MX-1554 pre-design model with the exhaust cone, seen also in post#6.

CONVAIR DELTAS - Factory Models of Convair's Exotic Family of Jet Fighters
We examine delta-wing technology from Convair with their Air Force Interceptors and even a supersonic jet seaplane!

View: https://youtu.be/Mne24Pt4D7M

https://youtu.be/Mne24Pt4D7M

 

[fightingirish]

As most of you know, the Convair F-102 Delta Dagger became fairly heavily used in the air-to-ground role during its Vietnam service.

[...]The F-102 became fairly heavily used in the air-to-ground role. The interceptor was equipped with 24 2.75 in (70 mm) FFARs in the fuselage bay doors, and these weapons were used to good effect against various types of North Vietnamese targets. Additionally, heat-seeking Falcon missiles used in conjunction with the F-102's nose-mounted IRST (Infrared Search & Track) were employed on night time harassment raids along the Ho Chi Minh trail.

Operations with both the F-102A and TF-102A two-seater (which was used in a Forward Air Control role because its two seats and 2.75 in/70 mm rockets offered good versatility for the mission) in Vietnam until 1968 when all F-102 aircraft were sent back to the United States. [...]

Source: https://www.456fis.org/F-102_IN_VIETNAM.htm
I wonder, if the bulge under the front fuselage holds an IRST (changed from in front of the canopy for the A2A-role to a much more suitable position under the front fuselage for the A2G-role), a FLIR, a laser range finder or even gun like the McDonnell F-4E Phantom II. IMHO the bulge holds some kind of a sensor than of a gun.

https://flic.kr/p/2kH49ka

View: https://flic.kr/p/2kH49ka
Edit: This might be one of two "F-102C" proposals from the late 1950s.

The F-102C (briefly known as the F-102X) was a proposal for a tactical strike version of the Delta Dagger. It was powered by the J57-P-47 engine (with titanium compressor) and had structural modifications designed to increase its performance in a tactical role. Changes in the internal fire controls system were also made.
Two F-102As (53-1797 and 53-1806) were modified as YF-102C engineering testbeds, but the concept was rejected by the USAF in April of 1957. 53-1797 ended up in a Honolulu technical school.

Source http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f102_4.html

[...]There were no other configurations besides the TF-102A. The F-102C, an F-102A that would use an advanced engine (the J-57-P-47 with titanium compressor), never came into being. The Convair F-102C proposal of 1956, then referred to as the F-102X, also included a tail cone extension of 7 inches and an armament load of one MB-1 Genie rocket and four Falcon missiles. The contractor expected that these changes (estimated to result in a speed increase to Mach 1.33 and a 3,000 ft altitude gain over existing F-102As) would qualify the new model to fill a possible gap between the end of the service life of the F-102A and the introduction of the F-106. The Air Force in April 1957 decided to refuse the Convair proposal and to rely rather on the F-106 being ready for tactical inventory starting in mid 1958.[...]

Source: https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-102a-ops.htm

 

[yasotay]

To my (very limited) knowledge the F-102 never had anything ventral aft of the radome on the nose. I was also under the impression they were in RVN as air defense. All thought the idea of the IRST ICW Falcon is not as fanciful as I first thought.

I think the picture is a concept painting by Convair(?) to how they could make F-102 a viable ground attack aircraft with bomb stores under the wing and a gun slung under the nose. Still the cockpit designed for high altitude/high speed is not very good for ground target work with the great center post dividing the forward view.

 

[Hanse]

The one with a pair of J79s would have been interesting.

 

[jstar]

Strange as it may seem, the F-102A actually did fly some close-support missions over the South, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut using the 405 FW alert detachment. Operating under the code-name "Project Stovepipe", they used their heat sinking Falcon missiles to lock onto heat sources over the Ho Chi Minh trail at night, often Viet Cong campfires. This was more of a harassment tactic than it was serious assault. They would even fire their radar-guided missiles if their radars managed to lock onto something. The pilots were never sure if they actually hit anything, but they would sometimes observe secondary explosions. https://www.456fis.org/f-102.html

 

[yasotay]

Learn somethin' new every day.

 

[Archibald]

Every single Century fighter was used in Vietnam except the F-106.

The F-100 and F-105 are well known and paid a huge toll to fighter-bomber missions.

F-101 was a major reconnaissance asset (I should say RF-101).
(The few F-101A & F-101C, and the very different F-101B/F NORAD Interceptors, did not went to Vietnam.)

F-102A and F-104C were send to Vietnam but their missions are must less known because they were marginal at best. At least they got few losses.

 

[StraGen410]

Hello I found that there was a J-57 engine Strike fighter variant of F-102 look interesting. I am grateful if you can share any detail regarding the unbuilt strike dagger.

 

[isayyo2]

This? https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...evelopment-and-derivatives.20543/#post-442850

https://flic.kr/p/2kH49ka

 

[NMaude]

Strange as it may seem, the F-102A actually did fly some close-support missions over the South, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut using the 405 FW alert detachment. Operating under the code-name "Project Stovepipe", they used their heat sinking Falcon missiles to lock onto heat sources over the Ho Chi Minh trail at night, often Viet Cong campfires. This was more of a harassment tactic than it was serious assault. They would even fire their radar-guided missiles if their radars managed to lock onto something. The pilots were never sure if they actually hit anything, but they would sometimes observe secondary explosions. https://www.456fis.org/f-102.html

I read somewhere that the IR AIM-4s did reasonably taking out trucks on the Ho Chi Minh trail also a number of AIM-9Bs were modified into the AGM-87A FOCUS I and apparently they performed well blowing up NVA trucks.

 

[Archibald]

Sidewinder-armed helicopters shooting down trucks on a road hidden below the jungle canopy...
Typical Vietnam madness !
Imagine the conversation. A USAF pilot in a Saigon bar is bragging about his air to air victory.
"I shot down a MiG with my Phantom using a Sidewinder."
An Army helicopter driver nearby just raise his shoulders.
"So, what ? I shot down trucks from a UH-1, also with Sidewinders."

 

[iverson]

Sidewinder-armed helicopters shooting down trucks on a road hidden below the jungle canopy...
Typical Vietnam madness !
Imagine the conversation. A USAF pilot in a Saigon bar is bragging about his air to air victory.
"I shot down a MiG with my Phantom using a Sidewinder."
An Army helicopter driver nearby just raise his shoulders.
"So, what ? I shot down trucks from a UH-1, also with Sidewinders."

Not all that mad, given that the Sidewinder started as a 5" air-to-ground HVAR rocket. I doubt that Army helicopters would have carried them, though. Air Force or Navy/Marine jets seem more likely.

 

[NMaude]

Sidewinder-armed helicopters shooting down trucks on a road hidden below the jungle canopy...
Typical Vietnam madness !

Imagine a scene in Apocalypse Now with a Sidewinder toting UH-1 going up against the VC.

 

[yasotay]

I would not have believed it had I not seen the picture above. Still the overpressure from the rocket motor likely led to this not being a regular occurrence.

 

[Sundog]

Not to mention, U.S. pilots used the sidewinders to shoot boats as well.

 

[Archibald]

I think the Israelis also tried such tactics. At times the sidewinder instead hit sand dunes, heated by the harsh sun in the desert... and thus massive infrared targets.

 

[StraGen410]

To my (very limited) knowledge the F-102 never had anything ventral aft of the radome on the nose. I was also under the impression they were in RVN as air defense. All thought the idea of the IRST ICW Falcon is not as fanciful as I first thought.

I think the picture is a concept painting by Convair(?) to how they could make F-102 a viable ground attack aircraft with bomb stores under the wing and a gun slung under the nose. Still the cockpit designed for high altitude/high speed is not very good for ground target work with the great center post dividing the forward view.

Easy they can modified the F-102X glass cockpit like the one on XF-92

 

[NMaude]

To my (very limited) knowledge the F-102 never had anything ventral aft of the radome on the nose. I was also under the impression they were in RVN as air defense. All thought the idea of the IRST ICW Falcon is not as fanciful as I first thought.

I think the picture is a concept painting by Convair(?) to how they could make F-102 a viable ground attack aircraft with bomb stores under the wing and a gun slung under the nose. Still the cockpit designed for high altitude/high speed is not very good for ground target work with the great center post dividing the forward view.

Easy they can modified the F-102X glass cockpit like the one on XF-92

F-102X?

 

[Christopher Wang]

Concerning engine upgrades for the F-102 Delta Dagger, would it have been technically feasible to swap out the Pratt & Whitney J57 for the General Electric J79?

 

[Christopher Wang]

As explained by LtCol. Doug Barbier, USAF (Ret.), in World's Fastest Single-Engine Jet Aircraft: The Story of Convair's F-106 Delta Dart Interceptor (2017), the F-102 Delta Dagger's successor, the F-106 Delta Dart, was proposed to be turned into a tactical fighter-bomber equipped with four external underwing hardpoints. The outboard and inboard stations were planned to carry a combination of external fuel drop tanks, general-purpose conventional bombs, AIM-9 Sidewinders, AGM-12 Bullpups, gun packages, and special weapons. Perhaps the F-102 Delta Dagger's wings could be modified / upgraded to carry a similar external weapons package?

 

[Christopher Wang]

The F-102 Delta Dagger had a three-segment internal weapons bay under the fuselage for up to six AIM-4 Falcons. Were there ever plans / proposals to replace the six AIM-4 Falcons with perhaps three AIM-9 Sidewinders? I assume that one AIM-9 Sidewinder would take the space of two AIM-4 Falcons.

 

[elmayerle]

Concerning engine upgrades for the F-102 Delta Dagger, would it have been technically feasible to swap out the Pratt & Whitney J57 for the General Electric J79?

It would be feasible, by using variable stators instead of twin-spools, the J79 managed to be smaller than the J57. Now, the structural changes for the engine swap might be a bit more challenging, but I don't see any reason it couldn't be done if the will and the money was there.

 

[isayyo2]

Perhaps the F-102 Delta Dagger's wings could be modified / upgraded to carry a similar external weapons package?

I think it'd be neat! They had hard points for external fuel tanks, not sure their gallon capacity/weight though. I could picture an export F-102 with two or three AIM-9s in the bay and a multiple ejector rack on either wing with six MK82 a piece, maybe add on a refueling probe; would make a good niche for Korea, Iran, Philippines, and Vietnam in the early to mid 60s. There was an YF-102C apparently with four wing hardpoints and an aerial refueling receptacle, though information is scarce on it.

 

[Archibald]

As explained by LtCol. Doug Barbier, USAF (Ret.), in World's Fastest Single-Engine Jet Aircraft: The Story of Convair's F-106 Delta Dart Interceptor (2017), the F-102 Delta Dagger's successor, the F-106 Delta Dart, was proposed to be turned into a tactical fighter-bomber equipped with four external underwing hardpoints. The outboard and inboard stations were planned to carry a combination of external fuel drop tanks, general-purpose conventional bombs, AIM-9 Sidewinders, AGM-12 Bullpups, gun packages, and special weapons. Perhaps the F-102 Delta Dagger's wings could be modified / upgraded to carry a similar external weapons package?

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f102_4.html

 

[apparition13]

Shades of Mirage 5 for the AF models. CAS would have been difficult, but they could have been decent strike aircraft I suppose, with better range than the Mirage. Would an F-16xl type lots of little pylons approach work with either aircraft's wing?

 

[Archibald]

Foreign Customers for the F-106