Airbus 300B Origins & Projects

Hi,

from Flightglobal the Airbus A300 family,notice that
one of them was four engined project.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1974/1974%20-%201706.html

It's remarkable how far ahead they were looking. The B10 became the A310, and the B9/B11 became the TA9/TA11. Not that much later, they came up with the idea of giving those two aircraft the same wing (the quad being able to take more weight because of the bending relief from the engines, and to T/O at higher weight because the OEI case was easier) and they evolved directly into the A330/A340.

Dear Boys and Girls, have any of you ever seen an image of the Airbus A300B7? I understand it was designed to meet BEA's "Airbus" requirement and was a slightly stretched A300B2/B4 with Rolls Royce RB-211 engines. There was also an A300B8 design for the USA Domestic airline market, but I cannot remember to what degree it differed from the standard A300B2/B4. This may be the design that was optioned by Western Air Lines Inc and Allegheny Airlines Inc, but I don't have any records to hand to confirm that. Anyone out there know?

All best, Terry (Caravellarella).

At the 1966 Hanover Air Show Hawker Siddeley (Britain), Bréguet and Nord Aviation (France) present the HBN-100, a proposed 220-seat widebody airliner, a forerunner of the Airbus A300.

On 14/1/63 Churl De Gaulle said Non to US' proxy in the EEC. New UK Govt.16/10/64; Euro-Aero-Collaboration explored as cost-saving and as Euro-re-entry ticket. BEAC was persuaded to suggest London-Paris as suitable for a Big-Twin; November,1965 UK+France Govts. funded studies by BAC+Sud Avn. and by HSAL+Breguet+Nord Avn - by May,1966, as Triton's Hannover model. W.German Govt. joined in, inserting VFW+HFB so HBN became Hatfield+Hamburg+Breguet+Nord Avn.+Nord Gruppe. But: neither Breguet, Nord Avn., VFW nor HFB were civil-credible cf. Douglas/Lockheed, scheming Big Trijets. BAC+Sud Avn., who probably were credible, were doing Concorde and BAC had sourced VC10 rear there; but: BAC was a) financially parlous, post-TSR-2, and b) industrially confused: the Filton end working on Sud Galion, the Weybridge end scheming 2-11, with Short's rear and Sud Avn. wing. (Concentrate, now: Sud and BAC were merrily competing internally, to US' pleasure). Galion, HBN-100, 2-11 bids in, mid-1966. Much Ministerial confusion...solved by RR, whose sights were on US Trijets.

On 7/10/66 Bristol Aeroplane Co unloaded BSEL to RR, and threw in its 20% of BAC - the Filton asset. RR dumped Galion's PW/SNECMA/BSEL JT9D; France/Sud Avn. jumped ship; HSAL/Sud Avn on 15/10/66 bid ex-Super Galion A300/RB207 and were promptly Study-funded. W.German Govt. left some workshare in VFW, but inserted civil virgins Messerschmitt-Bolkow+Dornier - politics of Bavaria in the Bundesrepublik. UK trickle-funded 2-11, competing against their own Euro-investment.

On 10/5/67 UK re-applied for EEC; on 25/7/67 the 3 Govts. agreed to proceed with A300/RB207 and funded Airbus Industrie, 26/9/67 to do it; on 27/11/67 the Churl said Non again; in 12/67 UK cut off 2-11 funds, but pressed on, in trauma, with its funding share of A300/RB207 until RR again intervened, unable to do RB207 and L1011's RB211 (won 29/3/68) concurrently. On 10/4/69 UK cut off A300/RB207 Govt. funding; on 29/5/69 France and W.Germany funded A300B/GE (where did they come from?)/SNECMA CF-6. 18% workshare was offered to HSAL for the wing, which they took as contracted supplier, part-funded by the firm, part by W.German Govt. to preserve some balance against Gallic domination. BAC had invented 3-11 as spoiler in all this, scratching for partners, pennies (20% involuntary shareholder was miserly), and power, abandoning it 3/12/70.


(Mods: ?merge with Triton's HBN-100 post and retitle as A300B origins?) Airbus was a wholly-political concoction.

(Mods: ?merge with Triton's HBN-100 post and retitle as A300B origins?) Airbus was a wholly-political concoction.

Click to expand...

done

I don't believe the BAC 2-11 can be considered an ancestor of the A300B (although the wing design work matured into the Airbus A320 wing) and the BAC 3-11 can't be considered to be an ancestor of the A300B either as it was a competitive contemporary design.

The A300B is firmly rooted in a combination of HBN-100 and Sud/Dassault Galion ancestry; my opinion for what it's worth......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Not suggesting so. Point is the market manoeuvring from which A300B emerged. 2-11/3-11 were in that sense pacemaker/also-rans. So were US wide-bodies, as Europe tried to carve a niche above Super Caravelle/1-11-500 and bigger, even dubble-bubble VC10, below jumbo. Politics included these confusions:
- while pitching 2-11/3-11 BAC were required by shareholder RR to explore worksharing on L1011;
- Douglas kept FIAT/Italy out of all this by extending their DC-9 fabrication into DC-10;
- Boeing (who once explored a Caravelle licence) tried to scupper Sud Avn.'s ambitions by workshare as part of July,1966's AF 747-100 buy...but at fixed price/late delivery penalty, which repelled Sud.

Can we have some (Super) Galion images, pls?

Dear Alertken, I've got some pictures of the Sud Galion and the original PW JT9-D/RB-207 powered "fat" AB300 designs somewhere, but it will take some digging around in old files......

Terry (Caravellarella)

FlugRevue May 1976

FlugRevue May 1976

FlugRevue May 1976

FlugRevue May 1976

FlugRevue May 1976

Very great work my dear Pometablava,

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%202408.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%202410.html
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1982/1982%20-%202411.html

Found in FlugRevue 6/1981,three designs of the german "Airbus Team", then consisting of
Bölkow, Siebel, Dornier, HFB, Messerschmitt, Flugzeugunion Süd and VFW.
Especially interesting the T-30-004 with its side extensions and paired engines above the wing.

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French unveiling the SNCAN Nord 600 and the Bréguet Br.124 designs for high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliners. They are "projects", but they aren't "secret". The SNCAN Nord 600 features ventral access to the underfloor cargo/freight holds that would appear to be incompatible with design for pressurisation; it would have been powered by four Rolls-Royce Spey engines. The double-decker Bréguet Br.124 was proposed with either four Rolls-Royce Spey engines or two Rolls-Royce RB-178 turbofan engines......

The article comes from the 15th October 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a further article in French describing the SNCAN Nord 600 and the Bréguet Br.124 designs in greater detail......

The article comes from the 15th November 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, a model of the twin engine version of the Bréguet Br.124 from the 1st March 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Thank you for these pages, Caravellarella. As always, you are a wonderful source of unfamiliar aircraft, and these are very interesting & unusual designs.

That's a clever idea to put the wing carry through between the two vertically stacked bubbles. There has to be a strong floor there anyway. That way you can do with short landing gear too as the engines aren't the lowest part of the plane anymore. Though then the tail strike probably becomes a harder problem.

mz said:

That's a clever idea to put the wing carry through between the two vertically stacked bubbles. There has to be a strong floor there anyway. That way you can do with short landing gear too as the engines aren't the lowest part of the plane anymore. Though then the tail strike probably becomes a harder problem.

Click to expand...

The problem, mz, with a vertically stacked double-bubble fuselage and a mid-wing layout is that the occupants of the lower deck are unprotected in the event of a wheels-up landing. Also, in the case of ditching, the occupants of the lower deck would be below flotation level. I believe this is why the double-bubble fuselage (with both decks occupied by passenger accomodation) with mid-wing layout never found acceptance by airline operators......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French announcing the Sud Aviation-Dassault Galion design for high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner. It is a "project", but it isn't "secret". The Galion features a wide-body fuselage with a diameter compatible with that of the Boeing 747 and two Rolls-Royce RB-178 or Pratt & Whitney JT-9D turbofan engines......

The article comes from the 1st March 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Bonjour .

Here ,the Bréguet Br-124 with four unpaired jets ,from Aviation Magazine too .

Thank you Richard B, yes, at this early stage the Bréguet Br.124 still featured individual engine nacelles. It also shared the same double-decker fuselage as the projected Bréguet Br.946 250 seater STOL airliner project......

This article in French comes from the 1st July 1965 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Caravellarella said:

Dear Boys and Girls, have any of you ever seen an image of the Airbus A300B7? I understand it was designed to meet BEA's "Airbus" requirement and was a slightly stretched A300B2/B4 with Rolls Royce RB-211 engines. There was also an A300B8 design for the USA Domestic airline market, but I cannot remember to what degree it differed from the standard A300B2/B4. This may be the design that was optioned by Western Air Lines Inc and Allegheny Airlines Inc, but I don't have any records to hand to confirm that. Anyone out there know?

All best, Terry (Caravellarella).

Click to expand...

Dear Boys and Girls, I am quite desperate to see a general arrangement drawing of the Hawker-Siddeley HS833 which was a project for a turboprop version of the Airbus A300B designed at Manchester. It is listed on page 225 of "Stuck on the Drawing Board" by Richard Payne......

I'm assuming at this stage that the HS833 was the equivalent of the the Lockheed RECAT turboprop TriStar project......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Jemiba said:

Found in FlugRevue 6/1981,three designs of the german "Airbus Team", then consisting of
Bölkow, Siebel, Dornier, HFB, Messerschmitt, Flugzeugunion Süd and VFW.
Especially interesting the T-30-004 with its side extensions and paired engines above the wing.

Click to expand...

By the way my dear Jemiba,

can you define each project belong to which companies ?,such as;

M-30 was from ...... and ..... companies
T-30 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,
T-25 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,

The "Airbus team", consisting of the mentioned companies, was a study group,
so it will be very difficult to extract the part every single company had contributed,
without having detailed protocols of group meetings or something like that

Thank you my dear Jemiba for the explanation.

I found these in "Airbus. The Complete Story" by Gunston.

Also;

HBN-102 and HBN-103 were double-deck mid-wing aircraft and HNB-104
was double-deck low-wing with rear mounted engines aircraft projects,
led to develop Airbus A.300.

Dear Boys and Girls, here are some more images of the Sud Aviation-Dassault Galion design for high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner. The artist's impression comes from a larger article in the 15th May 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International which I shall add soon......

I believe the 3-view drawing is a Pilot Press © drawing first published in the August 1972 issue Volume 3 No. 2 of Air Enthusiast......

Terry (Caravellarella)

I think we all need to remember that the BAC 3-11 and the Airbus Industrie A300B were contemporary and competitive designs and were not related to or derived from each other in any way, shape or form......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French unveiling the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-100 private venture collaborative design for high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner at the 1966 Hannover Show. This is a "project", but it isn't "secret". The featured 3-view drawing and model are not particularly accurate at this stage......

The article comes from the 15th May 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here is a more accurate model of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-100 used to illustrate an editorial in French on multi-national collaboration. Note how the cockpit windows are very similar to those from the HS121 Trident series......

The article comes from the 1st July 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here are some more images of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-100. I don't know where the artist's impression comes from......

I believe the 3-view drawing is a Pilot Press © drawing first published in the August 1972 issue Volume 3 No. 2 of Air Enthusiast......

Terry (Caravellarella)

There is no need to mention that projects aren't secret every time. Most of them weren't.

Dear Boys and Girls, here are two images of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-101 which was an alternate "project" design for high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner based on SNCAN Nord's previous work on the Nord 600 with a side-by-side bi-lobal fuselage cross-section. The artist's impression comes from a larger article in the 15th May 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International which I shall add soon, but it is incorrectly captioned as the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-104.....

I believe the 3-view drawing is a Pilot Press © drawing first published in the August 1972 issue Volume 3 No. 2 of Air Enthusiast......

Hawker-Bréguet-Nord also studied 3 other alternative "project" designs using Bréguet's previous work on double-bubble fuselage cross-sections. These "project" designs were the HBN-102, HBN-103 & HBN-104, but I have never been able to find any images of what they looked like......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an editorial in French about the pros and cons of Anglo-French co-operation on any future high capacity "airbus" type short-haul airliner. It compares the then current Hawker-Bréguet-Nord collaborative proposals (and their configurations) with their Bréguet and Nord predecessors and the all-French Sud Aviation-Dassault Galion proposal. There are errors in the description of the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord collaborative proposals and the Hawker-Bréguet-Nord HBN-101 proposal is incorrectly captioned as the HBN-104.

The article comes from the 15th May 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)

No-one here should be deluded with thoughts that A300B had one parent. 3. Neither a Brit, or French, or W.German conception.

July,1964. BAC+Sud Avn. collaborating as a team on Concorde. Decisions driven by project benefit. Explore subsonic schemes to follow-on 1-11 and Caravelle. Solo schemes, too: dubble-bubble VC10; HSAL tried HS134. Big fans were on rig-test.

Oct.1965: DoD awards CX/HLS to Lockheed (to be C-5A)/GE TF39 (to be adapted as CF6). Also-rans Boeing/Pratt peddle a pax scheme.

Nov.65: the sole Euro-route that could sustain a wide-body is LHR-Paris. (UK Govt.) MoA funds Feasibility Studies at HSAL and BAC for a Big Twin, with a preference for industrial collaboration with France. UK's over-riding purpose was not to shift a few machines to BEAC + Air France, but to curry favour with CDG for a 2nd. UK application to join EEC. MoA presume power would be by RB178, funded 1961 (to be bench-run, July,1966).

April,1966: Big Twin Study Reports. HSAL: HBN-100 (Hatfield/Breguet/Nord Avn)/RB207 (RB178-variant). BAC: 2-11 (Short rear/Sud wing/RB211, a shrunk RB178), and Sud/BAC Galion (bigger engine to be defined).

Summer,1966: 747-100/JT9D sold to everyone, inc. AF and BOAC. US carriers start discussing Transcontinental wide-bodies. Pratt enters work-sharing arrangements with BSEL and SNECMA.

7 October,1966: Bristol Aeroplane Co. sells 50% BSEL/20% BAC (representing the Filton asset) to RR, who kill Euro-JT9D at speed of light, and take little interest in Filton work-share on Sud Galion.

Articles and models from Breguet, Nord, Sud, everybody. Govts. hugely confused. UK/France flash their Big Pairs at Germania, UK hoping to entice her into AFVG and/or Jaguar (funded 17/5/65), and to be positive re EEC. W.German Govt. sponsors a grouping (to be Deutsche Airbus); France decides Nord Avn. shall settle for 50% of C.160, Breguet for 50% of Atlantique and Jaguar; such that the Big Twin shall go to Sud Avn., already credible in civil support on Caravelle. Internal-to-France production work-sharing will deal with overload, Concorde (hundreds of sales envisioned) + Twin. UK decides that BAC shall attend to AFVG/Jaguar and Saudi Magic Carpet (signed 5 May,1966).

10 May,1967: UK re-applies to join EEC.

29 June,1967: France kills AFVG.

25 July,1967: UK/France/FRG Memorandum of Understanding to do A300/RB207.
26 September, 1967: MoU to form Airbus Industrie, UK&France 37.5%/FRG 25%.

27 November,1967: CDG says Non, zut alors.

29 March,1968: RB211 becomes sole source, L.1011. (BAC flaunts its assets to Lockheed, seeking work-share).

16 April,1969: UK ceases to fund Airbus Industrie.

25 May,1969: France+FRG MoU to fund A300B-1; DC-10-10 pod/strut licenced; GE/SNECMA CF6-50. UK surprised. BAC puts £3Mn.in 3-11 and offers 40% workshare to Short, Yugoslavia/Romania, Italy, Japan…and FRG. FRG pays HSAL £100Mn. to take 18%, wing-supplier, role.

2 December,1970: UK Govt. declines Launch Aid for 3-11. (24 October,1978: UK buys 20% AI equity for BAe.)