Pronouncing and spelling Eastern European names

[Stargazer]

For those not familiar with Eastern European languages, deciphering surnames and transcribing them can be a real pain...

I won't go into the complete alphabets here, just the consonant sounds that really pose a problem to Westerners:

Ц (Russian, etc.) = C (Czech, etc.) = C (Polish) = Z (German) = TS (English) = TS (French)
Ш (Russian, etc.) = Š (Czech, etc.) = SZ (Polish) = SCH (German) = SH (English) = CH (French)
Ч (Russian, etc.) = Č (Czech, etc.) = CZ (Polish) = TSCH (German) = CH (English) = TCH (French)
Щ (Russian, etc.) = combination of the above two sounds
Ж (Russian, etc.) = Ž (Czech, etc.) = Ź (Polish) = ZH (English) = J (French)
В (Russian, etc.) = W (Czech, etc.) = W (Polish) = W (German) = V (English) = V (French)
Ř (Czech, etc.) = no equivalent? (sound between R and Ž)
J (Czech, etc.) = J (Polish) = J (German) = Y (English) = Y (French) *

* NOTE: There is no Russian equivalent of this letter, only in "double" sounds:
Я = JA = YA
Е = JE = YE
Ю = JU = YOU

Many Western journalists have misinterpreted Eastern names and some mistakes have stuck. Also, it's difficult for a company to change its logos and impossible to adapt its name to each different country. That's why lots of people pronounce Škoda as "Skoda" (instead of Shkoda) or "Mielec" as "Mieleck" (instead of Mielets). In general, one can say that the tendency is to avoid modifying the spelling for names written with the same signs as ours (at the risk of completely ruining the original pronunciation).

Examples:

- the Serbo-croat Rogožarski becomes "Rogozharski" in English and "Rogojarski" in French.
- the Serbo-croat Žučenko becomes "Zhuchenko" in English and "Joutchenko" in French.
- the Russian Лавочкин becomes "Lavochkin" in English and "Lavotchkine" in French.
- the Russian Мясищев becomes "Myasishchev" in English and "Myassichtchev" in French (though these ought to end with "-eff", logically).

 

[Petrus]

As for 'Лавочкин ' it should rather be pronounced as 'Wavochkin' (in English) not 'Lavochkin', for the Russian consonant Л may be spelled in two ways: as 'L' ('Leningrad') or as 'W' in certain collocations (if I am not mistaken when it stands before 'a'). For French readers the name's pronunciation should start like in 'Ouagadougou' -> 'Ouavotchkine'.

In Polish there is a consonant 'Ł' that is pronounced in a very similar way (not neccesarily identical however), so we transliterate the name of 'Лавочкин ' as Ławoczkin not 'Lawoczkin'.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[Maveric]

Examples:

- the Serbo-croat Rogožarski becomes "Rogozharski" in English and "Rogojarski" in French.
- the Serbo-croat Žučenko becomes "Zhuchenko" in English and "Joutchenko" in French.
- the Russian Лавочкин becomes "Lavochkin" in English and "Lavotchkine" in French.
- the Russian Мясищев becomes "Myasishchev" in English and "Myasichtchev" in French (though these ought to end with "-eff", logically).


Hi all, these examples in german:
- Rogožarski becomes Rogozarski
- Žučenko becomes Zuchenko
- Лавочкин becomes Lawotschkin
- Мясищев becomes Mjassischtschew


Maveric

 

[redstar72]

Hi all!

As for 'Лавочкин ' it should rather be pronounced as 'Wavochkin' (in English) not 'Lavochkin', for the Russian consonant Л may be spelled in two ways: as 'L' ('Leningrad') or as 'W' in certain collocations (if I am not mistaken when it stands before 'a'). For French readers the name's pronunciation should start like in 'Ouagadougou' -> 'Ouavotchkine'.

I'm sorry but you are mistaken - the letter "Л" in Russian sounds as "L" in all cases. So "Лавочкин" in English would be only "Lavochkin" and nowise other.

 

[Petrus]

.

I'm sorry but you are mistaken - the letter "Л" in Russian sounds as "L" in all cases. So "Лавочкин" in English would be only "Lavochkin" and nowise other.

You don't need to be sorry.

At http://masterrussian.com/aa081201b.shtml#l there are instructions how to pronounce "Л", whose authors definitely state that the letter designates two (slightly) different sounds:

The sound /л/ is pronounced like l in lump, but you should lower the back of your tongue and touch the upper teeth with its tip. In order to get the "soft" counterpart /л'/ you should palatalise the sound as in leak. In writing, these sounds are designated by the letter Л.

They give examples of both variations of pronounciation:
hard /л/: лампа, cтол, лук (pronounced resp. like lahm-pah, stol, look),
soft /л'/: Лена, лист (lye-nah, leest).

The aircraft designer's name should then be pronounced with the hard /л/, which is closer (but of course not identical) to how "W" is pronounced in English.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[redstar72]

Dear Petrus, while I am Belarusian myself but Russian is my native language. I speak it all my life and hear everyday lots of other people who also speak Russian . Of course we have hard /л/ and soft /л'/ but any of these versions had nothing similar with "W", believe me! It's absolutely correctly noted in your quote - the soft /л'/ sounds like in English word "leak" (leak, not weak!). Also, л (as well as other consonants) is soft when it stands before "soft" vowels: е, ё, и, ю, я. So, in the surname "Лавочкин" we have hard /л/.

 

[bigvlada]

As stargazer said, in Serbocroatian, Č/Ч (the second one is in cyrilic) is best pronounced as CH (like in word couch or church) and Ž/Ж as ZH (for example, first letter of the newspaper Zhenmin zibao, or the Lithuanian basketball club Zhalgiris )
other letters that are different from latin alphabet are:
Ć/Ћ is similar to C in word italian word ciao (their C is something between Č and Ć),zou pronounce it as soft as possible; it's a common ending to a surname in former Yugoslavia.
Đ/Ђ (you also may find it as Dj) is spelled like J in word juice
Dž/Џ - the rarest one, is spelled like J in Johnatan or jumbo.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Dear Petrus, while I am Belarusian myself but Russian is my native language. I speak it all my life and hear everyday lots of other people who also speak Russian . Of course we have hard /л/ and soft /л'/ but any of these versions had nothing similar with "W", believe me! It's absolutely correctly noted in your quote - the soft /л'/ sounds like in English word "leak" (leak, not weak!). Also, л (as well as other consonants) is soft when it stands before "soft" vowels: е, ё, и, ю, я. So, in the surname "Лавочкин" we have hard /л/.

As a native English speaker, I can't see any difference in pronouncing in the L in Lump and the L in Leak. The sounds are identical IMHO and a billion miles from W.

 

[piko1]

first of all stargazer i see the ( Russian etc. ) as offence to my Country and my Language and my self
Cyrillic ( aka Bulgarian ) alphabet was developed in the First Bulgarian Empire during the 10th century AD at the Preslav Literary School and it is the third official script and language of the European Union so yes it is a bit offensive don't you think

Щ is not ч and ш first of all but Ш and T so it's Pronounced similar as in the German word Stück
there is one letter that you didn't cover and that's the Ь or the Er-small In modern literary Bulgarian language this letter is used in the middle of words designating only to soft consonant vowel o (миньор, пласьор, актьор, Петьо). There are cases that may follow another vowel
so when you read the name Петьо you pronounce it and read as Petio

pleas ask if you have questions

ps here is something that will lave you speech less for some moment or two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jovBWpt7l8

 

[redstar72]

Щ is not ч and ш first of all but Ш and T so it's Pronounced similar as in the German word Stück

Well, of course you are right: in Bulgarian "Щ" is "Ш" and "Т". But in Russian "Щ" is "Ш" and "Ч", acually.

 

[piko1]

Well, of course you are right: in Bulgarian "Щ" is "Ш" and "Т". But in Russian "Щ" is "Ш" and "Ч", acually.

no man Щ is Ш and T in the both Languages

 

[redstar72]

no man Щ is Ш and T in the both Languages

Dear colleague,
please don't take me for an idiot who doesn't know his own native language! The sounds /шт/ in Russian are represented by proper two letters ШТ, as in the word штука which is equal to German Stück, or in the word штаны (trousers). Also, ЧТ can be sometimes pronounced as /шт/ as in the pronoun что ("what"). The letter Щ can be pronounced as /шч'/ or /ш'ш'/, both forms are permissible. Even Bulgarian Wiki proves this!

Щ, щ е буква от кирилицата, представяща комбинацията от звуци [ʃt] в българския език, [ɕɕ] или [ɕtɕ] в руския и [ʃt͡ʃ] в украинския. Буквата представлява лигатура между Ш и Т, наподобяваща глаголическата буква Ⱋ.

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Щ

See also http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Щ.

 

[piko1]

Dear colleague,
sorry if i offended you in any way as we all know the Russian and the German are the most sophisticated languages
in the end i agree to disagree we are both right and wrong in the same time





PS. now is time for bottle of Vodka it is my Bday after all

 

[Jemiba]

PS. now is time for bottle of Vodka it is my Bday after all

Congratulations then and all the best to you !

Actually I'm glad, that you seem to have ended your discussion, which seemed somewhat to get
more serious. I don't know the Russian language at all, but I think, that similar discussions could
arise about the pronounciation of certain letters or syllables in the German language, too. It's just
a question, of which part of Germany the native speaker comes from. There's a unified spelling, but
about a unified pronounciation, I'm not sure, at least not for the German language.

 

[Stargazer]

There's a unified spelling, but
about a unified pronounciation, I'm not sure, at least not for the German language.

There IS a unified pronunciation, and German is very logical and simple from a phonetic point of view, BUT depending on the regions there will be variations.

For instance the final "-g" will be pronounced differently in Bayern: the word "zwanzig" (twenty) is pronounced "tsvantsik" while the rest of the country says "tsvantsish" (not an actual "sh" but I don't know how to transcribe it). Also the Bayern people tend to roll the letter "r". I'm sure there must be similar local variants in other parts of the country, too.

 

[Jemiba]

German is a pluricentric language, so there actually isn't a common pronounciation. Generally there's a kind of countrywide
accepted "correct pronounciation", but looking into history, this changed several times, often depending on the most
influential parts of the country. Today the variant which is spoken in or around Hannover is often regarded as the "purest" form.
I'm from Berlin and at school we were told, that our accent actually not even is an accent, but just a kind of "bad pronounciation" ! :
We often pronounce the final "g" as Stéphane told us (" ..sh" instead of "k"") ...
Had a look into the list in http://www-oedt.kfunigraz.ac.at/oedtradio/content/05-mat/3plzglobal.htm for other pluricentric languages:
Arab, Chinese, Portugese, Korean and lots of others and, well, amongst them, besides German, English, French and Russian !

 

[Antonio]

The same for Spanish. Specially different in the South from the ideal/academic Castellano.

 

[Stargazer]

As pometablava points out, there is an "ideal" academic Spanish in Castilla.

In the same way, there is an "ideal" academic English in Oxford (though few people actually speak it).

Likewise, there is an "ideal", academic French, and it is supposed to be the one from the Tours area.

What German, what Russian, what Polish, etc. areas are considered to have the "ideal" pronunciation?

 

[Stargazer]

Just a friendly reminder to all forum members wishing to decipher titles and captions written in the Russian language (please note that sounds are almost never exact equivalents but the closest possible in the English language):

 

[foiling]

Thank you all for your contributions & clarifications. As a keen enthusiast of Russian aircraft, who cannot speak a word of Russian, but can now identify certain key words useful in interpreting data, this has been extremely helpful, and much appreciated.

 

[Boogey]

For those not familiar with Eastern European languages, deciphering surnames and transcribing them can be a real pain...

Ж (Russian, etc.) = Ž (Czech, etc.) = Ź (Polish) = ZH (English) = J (French)

It's nuance of course, but Russian letter Ж we in Poland write with letter Ż, not Ź, and the pronounciation of it sounds a little bit like French j
in words " jalousie " or " je t’aime ". The phone Ź sounds quite differently.

That's why lots of people pronounce Škoda as "Skoda" (instead of Shkoda) ...

Polish people know it very well, but we have to pronounce the name " Škoda " as " Skoda ", because the properly pronounced word " Szkoda "
means in Polish " harm ", " damage ", " detriment ", " injury ", " hurt " and so on, so the associations are not good.

Besides Polish people when learnig Russian language are teached to pronounce the phone Л like Polish Ł, that's why every Polish
would instinctively write the name of Лавочкин as Whahvochkin in English.

 

[Stargazer]

For those not familiar with Eastern European languages, deciphering surnames and transcribing them can be a real pain...

Ж (Russian, etc.) = Ž (Czech, etc.) = Ź (Polish) = ZH (English) = J (French)

It's nuance of course, but Russian letter Ж we in Poland write with letter Ż, not Ź, and the pronounciation of it sounds a little bit like French j
in words " jalousie " or " je t’aime ". The phone Ź sounds quite differently.

That's why lots of people pronounce Škoda as "Skoda" (instead of Shkoda) ...

Polish people know it very well, but we have to pronounce the name " Škoda " as " Skoda ", because the properly pronounced word " Szkoda "
means in Polish " harm ", " damage ", " detriment ", " injury ", " hurt " and so on, so the associations are not good.

Besides Polish people when learnig Russian language are teached to pronounce the phone Л like Polish Ł, that's why every Polish
would instinctively write the name of Лавочкин as Whahvochkin in English.

Very interesting stuff, Boogey. Nice to see you around, and thanks for this valuable info (I had always wondered how the heck Ł ought to be pronounced, now I know! ;D)

 

[Aubi]

For those not familiar with Eastern European languages, deciphering surnames and transcribing them can be a real pain...

Ж (Russian, etc.) = Ž (Czech, etc.) = Ź (Polish) = ZH (English) = J (French)

It's nuance of course, but Russian letter Ж we in Poland write with letter Ż, not Ź, and the pronounciation of it sounds a little bit like French j
in words " jalousie " or " je t’aime ". The phone Ź sounds quite differently.

That's why lots of people pronounce Škoda as "Skoda" (instead of Shkoda) ...

Polish people know it very well, but we have to pronounce the name " Škoda " as " Skoda ", because the properly pronounced word " Szkoda "
means in Polish " harm ", " damage ", " detriment ", " injury ", " hurt " and so on, so the associations are not good.

Besides Polish people when learnig Russian language are teached to pronounce the phone Л like Polish Ł, that's why every Polish
would instinctively write the name of Лавочкин as Whahvochkin in English.

Škoda means exactly the same thing in Czech too. Good name for a company that manufactured heavy artillery. Not so good for the automotive spin-off.
There were even jokes about that after Škoda Auto was bought by Volkswagen, it should be renamed Schaden ("damage" in German).

 

[edwest4]

I am Polish and the accent marks are nuanced and somewhat difficult to deal with. There is also the issue of word order compared to English. And sometimes, in context, certain words are clearly implied but not included. Also, there is no X in Polish. So, the name Alexander is written as Aleksander. The W is pronounced as V. The soft W sound as in what, is represented by a version of the letter L with a short, angled line through the middle.

If you are reading maps, good luck. There is Kiev in the Ukraine, but also spelled Kyiv (Ukrainian) or Kiew.

The written Czech language is a complete mystery to me.

 

[Aubi]

It's actualy realy easy. Where in Polish you have the digraph ending with -z, in Czech we have caron (that pointy thingy above the letter). So sz - š, cz - č, harder sounding rz - ř (there's a difference, but not much for a layman's ear), and so on. Czech ž is similar to Polish ż or ź, and basically if there's a Polish letter with something above it, the Czech equivalent is again that letter with caron. Our only digraph is ch, and everything else is mostly pronounced exactly like it's written. And no tails on any letters.
So instead of Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz, we would have Gřegoř Břenčiščikievič.

 

[zen]

When I dared to post in something on language (what technical English might look like without so much borrowing). My thread was deleted for being severely OT. Which is understandable.
But....
Why should this thread be allowed?

 

[starviking]

When I dared to post in something on language (what technical English might look like without so much borrowing). My thread was deleted for being severely OT. Which is understandable.
But....
Why should this thread be allowed?

What forum was your posting in Zen?

 

[zen]

When I dared to post in something on language (what technical English might look like without so much borrowing). My thread was deleted for being severely OT. Which is understandable.
But....
Why should this thread be allowed?

What forum was your posting in Zen?

Can't remember. Might have been the Bar or AH.
AH is more likely since English 'borrows' (it's more complicated) a lot of Latin, French, and Greek for technical terminology.
So obviously not using that is very AH if reasonably out of scope for this site. But interesting for me and a minor entertainment to ponder.

But to add to the wider conversation and topic....
It's important to remember that English has borrowed not just words from other languages but also the spelling systems used for those languages...and even invented spelling systems used to translate from the different writing systems of some languages.

Aaand sometimes....like with 'Czech' a neighbouring spelling system. Polish in this case.

Such as.....'language', which ought to be spelled according to modern English orthography as 'languaj' or as 'languadge'.

 

[dan_inbox]

How is such a discussion relevant to unbuilt projects?

 

[starviking]

How is such a discussion relevant to unbuilt projects?

We could say that about several of the sections in the forum.

My personal opinion is this: like it or not, discussions on one topic lead to discussion on another (or we could just say ‘lead to diversions’).

It’s a natural process - our brains are wired to make connections. Whether you’re pootling around the house mulling things over, or having a gab with your pals - it happens.

And we’ve an eclectic mix of members, with eclectic interests. Big diversions are not only possible - but probable. So, as long as something is interesting or thoughtful, I think it should be put in the Bar.

I’m aware that that might be an unsustainable load on moderators though, so I’d suggest a “Snippets” topic in the Bar where such cuts can be moved - on the understanding that the writer will either make, or search for, a Bar post where it could reasonably be said to fit.

 

[dan_inbox]

My personal opinion is this: like it or not, discussions on one topic lead to discussion on another (or we could just say ‘lead to diversions’).

It’s a natural process - our brains are wired to make connections. Whether you’re pootling around the house mulling things over, or having a gab with your pals - it happens.

And we’ve an eclectic mix of members, with eclectic interests. Big diversions are not only possible - but probable. So, as long as something is interesting or thoughtful, I think it should be put in the Bar.

I’m aware that that might be an unsustainable load on moderators though, so I’d suggest a “Snippets” topic in the Bar where such cuts can be moved - on the understanding that the writer will either make, or search for, a Bar post where it could reasonably be said to fit.

This sounds a lot like:
Some of us have no personal discipline, are too lazy to find the right place, and generally can't be bothered to do it right. Let's dump it anywhere, and on the moderation team to restore a decent signal-to-noise ratio.

There are lots of other sites to "have a gab with our pals", where OT wouldn't be pollution.

 

[jeffb]

I wish I was better at languages. I can barely manage English!

 

[zen]

I think it's a debatable topic, since when encountering and reading non-English documents, it can be a difficult task to grapple with when you're not sure what the spelling means in relation to spoken language.
Equally it's arguably OT and just part of the effort needed to understand other countries efforts in aviation.

I'd also say some translations into English really need to be rewritten to make sense. Especially when we're dealing with highly technical terminology.
I find the translations from Russian quite difficult personally.

And of course one can be sympathetic for those who have had to learn English and are tearing their hair out over 'how do you actually say this?????'.

 

[Arjen]

How is such a discussion relevant to unbuilt projects?

Consider Sukhoi.

French: Soukhoï
German: Suchoi
Dutch: Soechoj
Danish: Sukhoj
Swedish, Polish: Suchoj
Turkish: Suhoy
Croatian: Suhoj
Hungarian: Szuhoj
Finnish: Suhoi
...etcetera

Letters of the Latin alphabet are pronounced differently in different languages. If I read a Danish or Swedish publication about Eastern European matters - which I can just about manage - it helps if I have a rough idea about pronunciation to make an educated guess what I'm reading about.

It is a bit of a stretch, but if this subject belongs anywhere in this forum, it is in Designation Systems.

 

[Antonio]

Reading the thread again, I think Designation Systems is the right place for it. Stargazer2006 made a great contribution with compilations of designs lists by manufacturer. At that time, many of us were focused on a "taxonomical" approach to help our quest for unbuilt projects. Working with Cyrillic alphabet sources required some kind of standarization of translation because we're an international community.

This is the origin of this thread

 

[zen]

There are similar issues with translation from other writing systems.
Consider "Typhoon".