XF-85 Goblin

[AeroFranz]

I recently purchased three books from Brian Lockett, the webmaster of the (Virtual) Goleta air museum.
http://www.air-and-space.com/

Project FICON Handbooks
Flying aircraft carriers of the USAF: MDD XF-85 Goblin
Flying aircraft carriers of the USAF: Project FICON

FICON page:http://www.air-and-space.com/ficon.htm

I was impressed with the quality of the pictures, and just as much by the writing. I recommend these to people interested in the subject, or those who have bought Jared Zicheck's equally great title on mother ships and parasites.

 

[Steve Pace]

Here's some XP/XF-85 Goblin photos from the National Museum of the USAF. -SP

 

[Steve Pace]

More... -SP

 

[Antonio]

Any unbuilt projects on the books?

 

[AeroFranz]

No, it only details actual test programmes (in quite some detail)

 

[Antonio]

Read on wikipedia's XF-85 entry that McDonnell Model 27 started its life back on December 1942 as a piston engined parasite fighter before ending as the Model 27D.

Can somebody post a drawing of that Model 27 from 1942?

Thanks in advance,

Antonio

 

[hesham]

Great info my dear Pometablava,


but I search in many books and magazines,but no way to this moment,I will
search tomorrow again.

 

[Steve Pace]

It ended up as the Model 27E. -SP

 

[Stargazer]

Air Force requirement MX-472, job order #4010
27 parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine
27 Special no details
27A parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 24C engine
27B parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a 15-foot fuselage
27C parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a single tail
27D parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a 15-foot tail pipe

Air Force requirement MX-667, job orders #4025, #2095
27E XF-85 "Goblin" parasite fighter with one Westinghouse 24C engine; U.S.A.F. Contract No. W33(038)-ac-13496; 2 built (c/n 670 and 671).

not specified
27F delta wing airborne interceptor proposal

 

[Antonio]

Many thanks Steve and Stargazer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_XF-85_Goblin

On 3 December 1942, the USAAF sent out a Request for Proposals (RfP) for a diminutive piston-engined fighter.[10]

SOURCE: Cowin, Hugh W. "McDonnell's unmanageable Goblin." Aviation News, June 2011.

By January 1944, the Air Technical Service Command refined the RfP and in January 1945, the specifications were further revised in MX-472 to specify a jet-powered aircraft.[7] Although a number of aerospace companies studied the feasibility of such aircraft, McDonnell was the only company to submit a proposal to the original 1942 request and later revised requirements.[7] The company's Model 27 proposal was completely reworked to meet the new specifications.[10]
Black-and-white top view of egg-shaped aircraft, with a hook extended over top of canopy

The initial concept for the Model 27 was for the fighter to be carried half-exposed under the B-29, B-35 or B-36. The USAAF rejected this proposal, citing increased drag, and hence reduced range for the composite bomber-fighter configuration.[7] On 19 March 1945, McDonnell's design team led by Herman D. Barkey,[11] submitted a revised proposal, the extensively redesigned Model 27D.[12]

MX-472 from 1945 was a revision of the original requirement (1942), now asking for a jet powerplant.

Reading the text again I was thinking about the possibility of this design for the 1942 requirement should had a different model number. Then MX-472 was Model 27. What do you think?

 

[Stargazer]

Reading the text again I was thinking about the possibility of this design for the 1942 requirement should had a different model number. Then MX-472 was Model 27. What do you think?

The idea was very interesting but on close look it seems unlikely. Are we sure that McDonnell provided a contending design to that early specification, anyway?

I'm taking a look at the McDonnell models list at the moment (excluding the Navy designs). Can't really say I found anything conclusive...

• Models 3/3A/3B twin engine interceptor pursuit projects — not marked "USAAF", no Job Order No. and a bit early.
• Models 4/4A/5 single engine interceptor pursuit projects — not marked "USAAF", no Job Order No. and a bit early.
• Model 12 series — a big set of 44 "long range twin engine pursuit design" proposals — not marked "USAAF", no Job Order No. and not at all what a parasite fighter could be.
• Model 13 long range twin engine pursuit project — same remark, not marked "USAAF", no Job Order No.
• Model 14 — number apparently not used.
• Model 16/16A — designs for USAAF and a Job Order No. but proposed versions of the P-67, not parasite fighters.
• Models 18A to K — marked as USAAF proposals, but not likely since they are described as "tandem engine fighter" proposals and were all jets already, except for the H and J which were mixed propulsion (compound) variants. Only the K variant led to a Job Order, but no contract.
• Models 19, 20 and 21 — USAAF fighter proposals, but all jet-powered or compound already, so unlikely candidates too...

All other numbers are U. S. Navy only and no parasite fighter there anyway... :-[
So unless the Model 14 was that proposal and was lost even in McDonnell's own archives, I don't think we have a good lead here.

The undescribed Model 18K is always possible, but a "tandem engine fighter"??

Of course, there remains the undescribed Model 27 Special. My theory is that perhaps the Model 27 was meant as a jet from the start, but McDonnell offered an alternate "special" (i.e. prop-powered) alternative in case it was rejected from the onset. However, without any company documents it will be impossible to say.

 

[Antonio]

Stéphane,

Many thanks again for the comprehensive answer. The list leaves not very much room for my "two-model theory". Your theory sounds nice but December 1942, in my opinion, seems premature to launch a jet powered parasite proposal. Bell XP-59A first flight was just in october 1942.

 

[Stargazer]

Stéphane,

Many thanks again for the comprehensive answer. The list leaves not very much room for my "two-model theory". Your theory sounds nice but December 1942, in my opinion, seems premature to launch a jet powered parasite proposal. Bell XP-59A first flight was just in october 1942.

Yeah, I agree. I was thinking maybe something along the lines of "until such an engine is readily available, we have a piston-powered "special" up our sleeve... ;D

 

[lark]

According to the Aviation News article (June 2011) mentioned by Antonio (Pometablava)
the initial Mc Donnell design responding to the 1942 RfP
should have been ..' a small design ,comparable to the Bell XP-77'..
As noted in the thread by Stargazer , only the revised requirement asked
for a jet-propelled aircraft.

 

[Stargazer]

According to the Aviation News article (June 2011) mentioned by Antonio (Pometablava) the initial Mc Donnell design responding to the 1942 RfP should have been ..' a small design ,comparable to the Bell XP-77'.

That would leave only the Models 4, 4A or 5 as possible candidates. But according to McDonnell's official projects list, none of these was ever contracted with USAAF apparently, not even in the form of a study.

 

[Grey Havoc]

According to the Aviation News article (June 2011) mentioned by Antonio (Pometablava) the initial Mc Donnell design responding to the 1942 RfP should have been ..' a small design ,comparable to the Bell XP-77'.

That would leave only the Models 4, 4A or 5 as possible candidates. But according to McDonnell's official projects list, none of these was ever contracted with USAAF apparently, not even in the form of a study.

United States Army Services of Supply contract perhaps?

 

[Stargazer]

United States Army Services of Supply contract perhaps?

Well, there's just NO contract or job order specified for these. Doesn't mean there was not an informal proposal made, but nothing that left a trace in the records.

 

[nugo]

Hi All!
And maybe McDonnell did not participate in the first Request For Proposals (3 December 1942), because McDonnell Model 11 (FH-1) development in 1942, if you do not take into account the Model 12 (long range twin engine pursuit project) and/or Model 13 (also long range twin engine pursuit project). If involved, well, then there would be a Model 12 or Model 13, or both together. Or maybe it was a different factory designation.
(Model 27---do not forget that the development in 1944)

 

[Antonio]

And maybe McDonnell did not participate in the first Request For Proposals (3 December 1942)

According to Wikipedia article, McDonnell participated from the begining...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

According to

Smith, Richard K. "An Escort Appended... The Story of the McDonnell XF-85 Goblin." Flying Review International, Volume 22, No. 16, December 1967

• December 1942 - MX-472 "Unconventional Fighter Escort"
• Initial concepts - 3-4 ramjet powered remote control drones per bomber
• Superseded by parasitic conventional fighter to be carried by bomber (B-29, B-35, B-36)
• McDonnell only company to respond to RFP on July 1944 - McDonnell submit 4 concepts.
• January 1945 - USAF decided it would have to be housed wholly internally, precluding B-29 carriage. Conventional looking Model 27 shrunk to Model 27D
• Contract awarded October 1945.

Boeing Frontiers http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/archive/2013/august/index.html#/12/

Says the final design was Model 27E.

MX-667 was the actual XF-85.

I would suggest:

1944 proposals - Model 27A/B/C/D. D wins.
Changes due to fitting in bomb bay = Model 27E.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Note MX-472 was one of three related preliminary design studies for "unconventional" solutions in 1942:

MX-472 - Preliminary design studies for unconventional escort fighter; continued by MX-667 (XP-85)
MX-473 - Preliminary design studies for unconventional light bomber
MX-474 - Preliminary design studies for unconventional medium/heavy bomber

http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/mx/1-499.html

 

[famvburg]

So that's the inspiration for this model! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Monogram-Flap-Jack-unbilt-kit-/321252183057?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item4acc1f4c11

 

[lark]

From what I read , the Mc Donnell design number -27- remained
during the whole development history of the parasite concept
from initial design 1942 until the Goblin..

 

[Stargazer]

From what I read , the Mc Donnell design number -27- remained
during the whole development history of the parasite concept
from initial design 1942 until the Goblin..

To be honest, I tend to think so too.

In the previous page, I wrote the following:

Of course, there remains the undescribed Model 27 Special. My theory is that perhaps the Model 27 was meant as a jet from the start, but McDonnell offered an alternate "special" (i.e. prop-powered) alternative in case it was rejected from the onset. However, without any company documents it will be impossible to say.

What PaulMM quoted above here goes along the same lines:

According to Richard K. Smith

• December 1942 - MX-472 "Unconventional Fighter Escort"
• Initial concepts - 3-4 ramjet powered remote control drones per bomber
• Superseded by parasitic conventional fighter to be carried by bomber (B-29, B-35, B-36)
• McDonnell only company to respond to RFP on July 1944 - McDonnell submit 4 concepts.
• January 1945 - USAF decided it would have to be housed wholly internally, precluding B-29 carriage. Conventional looking Model 27 shrunk to Model 27D
• Contract awarded October 1945.

Model 27 parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine
could be the same as "Initial concepts - 3-4 ramjet powered remote control drones"

27 Special no details
could be the "parasitic conventional fighter to be carried by bomber"

27A parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 24C engine
27B parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a 15-foot fuselage
27C parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a single tail
27D parasite fighter project with one Westinghouse 19XB engine and a 15-foot tail pipe
could be the "4 concepts"

 

[Antonio]

Great job! Thanks everybody.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Ron Downey has posted a tonne of material on the XF-85 Goblin on his blog.

aviationarchives.blogspot.com

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Any possibility of the Goblin crossing over with the Navy's Project Jupiter?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Any possibility of the Goblin crossing over with the Navy's Project Jupiter?

Doubtful given the service rivalry of the day.

 

[Wahubna]

Anyone got CG locations on this bad boy?

Contemplating building an RC of this thing.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

That's a shame. I wish there was more on that project.

 

[The Artist]

I was surprised at not seeing pictures of this model here.

 

[Motocar]

Cutaway McDonnell XF-85 "Goblin

 

[Motocar]

Other big cutaway McDonnell XF-85 Goblin

 

[Johnbr]

 

[hesham]

Hi,

https://books.google.ie/books?id=YNkDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[hesham]

Hi,

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/850828554574355359/

 

[Granit]

Hi,

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/850828554574355359/

The analogue of the American "Goblin", developed by Pokorzhevsky (USSR)...

 

[hesham]

The analogue of the American "Goblin", developed by Pokorzhevsky (USSR)...

Thank you my dear Granit,

and does anyone see the upper drawing of the view ?, it's weird.

 

[Motocar]

Big drawing

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Motocar.