X-15D - Hot As The Stagnation Point On A M25 Aerospace Vehicle !!

[shockonlip]

This is going to be a HOT model !

Get those NASA B-52 pylons ready!

http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/X-15DCatalogPage.htm

I included an image from the website for motivation.

 

[Stargazer]

Gosh!!

Was that a genuine X-15 development project?? ??? ???

I've never seen anything like it.

 

[Ian33]

I've seen a picture of that configuration before in a very old book iirc.

Looks fab'and ill be buying one!

 

[shockonlip]

It was in Jay Miller's X-15 Datagraph, and yours truely sent a mail to
North American Rockwell one day, many years ago, asking about advanced
X-15s that never flew and I received a very nice color artists rendering
of it, the same photo that appeared in Miller, except it was in color
and larger. But they never sent any writeup. Just the pix.

You may have noticed that our own Scott Lowther did the pattern for
the model. He is very interested in it as well. In fact he has/had, a bounty
out on it (a free subscription to one of his pubs if I recall). Not sure if that
is still active.

Since I'm a hypersonics nut, I also am quite interested in it.

It's one of those mysteries that hopefully one day soon, we may find out
more about. Maybe Scott already has found out something.

I am getting to the point that I may just start calling people and asking.

I have not seen a designation of X-15D applied to it before.

I agree it is VERY cool!

 

[Ian33]

Thats the one! Sat on my Dad's shelf I can see it now. Awesome read.

Love hypersonic test craft of the past - guts and brass ones all round.

 

[Jos Heyman]

The only designations I know are X-15, X-15A, X-15A-2 and X-15B.
The X-15B designation was applied to a 15 tons development of the X-15 which was to be launched by three rockets. The vehicle, with two pilots and using its own engines would then make an orbital flight before landing. Other proposals have included a delta winged derivative to be launched with a Martin Titan or Navajo launch booster whilst the launching of a Scout satellite from the vehicle was also explored.

So no X-15C or X-15D - but I love the picture presented.....

 

[DSE]

Note the folowing references from Marquardt's Mach 4.5 Supercharged Ejector Ramjet (SERJ) High-Performance Aircraft Engine Project: Unfulfilled Aspirations Ca.1970. Escher, William J. D.; Roddy, Jordan E.; Hyde, Eric H. AIAA Paper 2000-3109
http://hdl.handle.net/2060/20000091010

27 Anon., "SERJ/X-15 Advanced Propulsion Demonstrator--Phase I: Problem
Definition," The Marquardt Company Report 25,307, final report under Naval Air
Systems Command Contract N00019-68-C-0300, March 1970

28 Anon., "X-15 SERJ -- Precursor to Mach 4-Plus," The Marquardt Corporation
Publication MP 5050 (draft only), June 1969

Use of the X-15 for Airbreathinq Prqpulsion Testing -- Marquardt, along with several
other propulsion companies, had reflected interest in using the flight-proven X-15
rocket-powered research airplane to flight-test airbreathing-capable propulsion systems
of various types. The mode of testing generally considered was to use this unique
aircraft for subscale "captive/carry" type engine testing. Marquardt's assessment for the
NASA Flight Research Center (now the Dryden Flight Research Center) of the X-15
and several other research aircraft, as a potential flight-test bed for a variety of airaugmented
rocket type propulsion systems, exemplified this interest. Reference 26 is
the final report for this early combined-cycle propulsion flight-demonstration study.
The X-15/SERJ Proposal -- In 1967, X-15 project engineers from North American
Aviation met with members of the SERJ team to discuss the use of the X-15 in a quite
different combined airframe/propulsion testing mode. This went well beyond the size-limited
captive/carry approaches studied earlier -- and the original basis of the NASA
hypersonic research engine (HRE) project. Their idea was to fully re-engine the
airplane -- actually replacing its LR-99 rocket engine with a full-scale SERJ engine. This
replacement sequence was to start with the simpler ERJ and then move on to the fanequipped
SERJ engine. A heavy-weight development engine would be followed by a
flight-weight engineering prototype. Retaining the B-52-carried aircraft launching
approach, once in ramjet mode at Mach -4.5, the SERJ-powered X-15 would now be
uniquely capable of a short-duration (~10 minutes) cruise operation. This presently
unavailable operating capability was believed to have significant flight-research
opportunity payoffs, e.g., steady-state thermal protection system testing, and having
advanced high-temperature materials now operate under near-hypersonic "real
atmosphere" exposure conditions. The SERJ-powered X-15 prospect was
subsequently examined in some engineering detail by Marquardt under a Navy contract
(Reference 27).

North American prepared a detailed model of the SERJ-powered X-15 (see Figure 19).
Marquardt enthusiastically developed an advocacy brochure draft (Reference 28 and
Figure 20). This document included an artist's rendering of the vehicle in full ramjetmode
flight (presented in Figure 21). But the timing of this proposal was decidedly not
propitious: a long-pending X-15 program termination decision had now been finalized.
This decision was announced following X-15 Flight No. 199 (which, incidentally, carried
the second of the two HRE-replica modules to be flown). The remaining two airplanes
were soon off to the museums in Dayton and Washington. Marquardt's X-15/SERJ
brochure never got beyond the indicated "Preliminary Copy -- Not for Distribution"
stage (Figure 20).

NOTE: No figs in the doc on NTRS.

 

[shockonlip]

I was hoping you'd respond to this thread DSE!

Some of the figures of X-15 SERJ that DSE was talking about, although not necessarily
the exact refs from the paper he referenced. Many are already on this site. Others
are on one of Scott Lowther's sites.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5512.msg44149.html#msg44149

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5512.msg44160.html#msg44160

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=6060

I will post tonight another nice SERJ concept drawing from the cover of an AIAA paper,
unless someone beats me to it. It's the concept drawing of the Navy proposal showing
a SERJ equipped aircraft buzzing the fleet, and an aircraft carrier in the distance launching
other SERJ interceptors vertically.

The SERJ designs are interesting as X-15 airbreather proposals, especially since Marquardt actually
built static test articles and ran them, and they actually seemed to have solid justification for
funding. It's just at the time, with Vietnam going on, there was no funding for them.

The "X-15D" that started this thread was different. I'll see if I can find the color drawing that
North American Rockwell sent me years ago, and post it here as well.

 

[shockonlip]

The only designations I know are X-15, X-15A, X-15A-2 and X-15B.
The X-15B designation was applied to a 15 tons development of the X-15 which was to be launched by three rockets. The vehicle, with two pilots and using its own engines would then make an orbital flight before landing. Other proposals have included a delta winged derivative to be launched with a Martin Titan or Navajo launch booster whilst the launching of a Scout satellite from the vehicle was also explored.

So no X-15C or X-15D - but I love the picture presented.....

Yes, indeed!

You've probably already seen:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,230.msg1318.html#msg1318
(look down the whole page)


Not sure if you have read:

X-15B: THE SPACEPLANE THAT ALMOST WAS
by Dr. L. Parker Temple III
Abstract:
The X-15B would have been an advanced version of the North American X-15
hypersonic research aircraft, which was arguably the most successful of all the X-series.
Variously known as the Advanced X-15, the Orbital X-15, or the X-15B, the concept of
orbiting an X-15 never reached maturity, but provides a fascinating insight into the early
days of human spaceflight during the Cold War. Very little information on the X-15B
has come to light, even in the most authoritative and comprehensive studies of the X-15
flight research program. This paper describes the X-15B, and is based on newly released
information from studies conducted in 1958-1959.

If you haven't seen it, I'd look online. If that fails, I can show you how to get a copy
through AIAA. But they will charge $25.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The model is based solely on this painting. Note that the painting is pretty badly flawed... it looks great, but a whole lot of the geometry is really "off."

More blather: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=392

 

[shockonlip]

The model is based solely on this painting. Note that the painting is pretty badly flawed... it looks great, but a whole lot of the geometry is really "off."

More blather: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=392

Thanks for posting Scott.

I agree on the technical problems, but it shows pretty well someone's
original idea. I agree it would be nice to see if it ever got any further.

Thanks for posting your image, I don't have to post mine then.

But I will add that my photo from North American Rockwell has the
following ID on the back, if it helps anyone: EK-MRP-53.

The other images of X-15 deltas they sent me had what looked like
a month-year attached after EK MRP - x, like 9-66 or 10-65. But
what we're calling the X-15D didn't have the month-year indicated,
just EK-MRP-53.

EK maybe means "Ektachrome", MRP maybe Marketing Release Photo?
Just a guess on my part.

Earlier I promised to post the US Navy SERJ concept art. Sorry about
the poor quality. I'll bet Mr. Skubic has a very nice original. He was
the Graphics Group Head at Marquardt. Here it is. Again, it portrays
an interesting idea.

 

[DSE]

I will post tonight another nice SERJ concept drawing from the cover of an AIAA paper,
unless someone beats me to it. It's the concept drawing of the Navy proposal showing
a SERJ equipped aircraft buzzing the fleet, and an aircraft carrier in the distance launching
other SERJ interceptors vertically.

FWIW, that's off the cover of the AIAA copy of Marquardt's Mach 4.5 Supercharged Ejector Ramjet (SERJ) High-Performance Aircraft Engine Project: Unfulfilled Aspirations Ca.1970. Escher, William J. D.; Roddy, Jordan E.; Hyde, Eric H. AIAA Paper 2000-3109.

 

[DSE]

The SERJ designs are interesting as X-15 airbreather proposals, especially since Marquardt actually
built static test articles and ran them, and they actually seemed to have solid justification for
funding. It's just at the time, with Vietnam going on, there was no funding for them.

The real issue was how to get the fan out of the flowpath while the engine was operating to do the mode transition.

 

[DSE]

Not sure if you have read:

X-15B: THE SPACEPLANE THAT ALMOST WAS
by Dr. L. Parker Temple III
Abstract:
The X-15B would have been an advanced version of the North American X-15
hypersonic research aircraft, which was arguably the most successful of all the X-series.
Variously known as the Advanced X-15, the Orbital X-15, or the X-15B, the concept of
orbiting an X-15 never reached maturity, but provides a fascinating insight into the early
days of human spaceflight during the Cold War. Very little information on the X-15B
has come to light, even in the most authoritative and comprehensive studies of the X-15
flight research program. This paper describes the X-15B, and is based on newly released
information from studies conducted in 1958-1959.

If you haven't seen it, I'd look online. If that fails, I can show you how to get a copy
through AIAA. But they will charge $25.

Thanks for that pointer.

 

[Steve Pace]

I'm a sceptic I guess because I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal. The reason I say this is that Lockheed proposed the X-15C, which did not fly! -SP

 

[shockonlip]

I will post tonight another nice SERJ concept drawing from the cover of an AIAA paper,
unless someone beats me to it. It's the concept drawing of the Navy proposal showing
a SERJ equipped aircraft buzzing the fleet, and an aircraft carrier in the distance launching
other SERJ interceptors vertically.

FWIW, that's off the cover of the AIAA copy of Marquardt's Mach 4.5 Supercharged Ejector Ramjet (SERJ) High-Performance Aircraft Engine Project: Unfulfilled Aspirations Ca.1970. Escher, William J. D.; Roddy, Jordan E.; Hyde, Eric H. AIAA Paper 2000-3109.

Indeed !

Thanks for posting that as I was going to, but forgot to do it.

That paper is a GREAT read!!

Discusses how Marquardt built static test versions of the SERJ engine
and tested them, and then tried to get funding for building flight
test versions. Who they talked to about it (including Kelly at Skunk Works).

Where's Tony Stark when you need him !

 

[shockonlip]

The SERJ designs are interesting as X-15 airbreather proposals, especially since Marquardt actually
built static test articles and ran them, and they actually seemed to have solid justification for
funding. It's just at the time, with Vietnam going on, there was no funding for them.

The real issue was how to get the fan out of the flowpath while the engine was operating to do the mode transition.

Or not take it out of the way !

Also a problem for some turbofan-ramjets.

 

[shockonlip]

I'm a sceptic I guess because I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal. The reason I say this is that Lockheed proposed the X-15C, which did not fly! -SP

So it is proven that this "X-15D" configuration came officially from North American.

Scott has said the model design came right from the North American concept photo.

He didn't say anything about how they came up with the X-15D designation, but to
me, the X-15D designation is just a "what-if" thing, along with the real looking NASA
photo of it landing with an F-104 chase at Edwards.

It's just taking the NA concept to the next level to make a cool model.

Kind of like a "WOW - look what we could have done!" kind of thing. You know,
visualizing dreams and all that, which is the true first stage of design, actually.

I wish we could find out more about who did the concept and if any development
beyond the concept photo ever happened.

Even though the photo portrays a concept and leaves many questions unanswered,
it is clear that it is portraying an airframe integrated scramjet, which is taking
this technology to the next level after X-15 HRE.

 

[Jos Heyman]

I'm a sceptic I guess because I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal. The reason I say this is that Lockheed proposed the X-15C, which did not fly! -SP

So it is proven that this "X-15D" configuration came officially from North American.

What do you mean 'So it is proven' when the previous correspondent stated 'I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal'.
At best somebody working at North American attached the label X-15D to some drawings, but unless you go back to the North American Rockwell archives or other official archives and produce documentary evidence, let's not invent designations of any kind.

 

[Stargazer]

It wouldn't be the first time that a model factory uses a totally imaginary designation for a real project in order to increase their sales. Some examples picked at Fantastic Plastic:

- NORD 500 "Harpon" > that designation was already used for the Cadet VTOL prototype, and the Harpon name seems invented.
- JUNKERS JU-187 "SUPER STUKA" > the name is completely fictitious.
- DOUGLAS D-558-3 "SKYFLASH" > I'm still waiting to find a real Douglas document with that monicker on it.
- BLOHM & VOSS P-212.03 "STRAHLJAGER" > fictitious name.
- X-30 HYPERSONIC BOMBER > to the best of my knowledge, no bomber variant was studied under that designation.

 

[shockonlip]

I'm a sceptic I guess because I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal. The reason I say this is that Lockheed proposed the X-15C, which did not fly! -SP

So it is proven that this "X-15D" configuration came officially from North American.

What do you mean 'So it is proven' when the previous correspondent stated 'I don't believe there was ever an official X-15D proposal'.
At best somebody working at North American attached the label X-15D to some drawings, but unless you go back to the North American Rockwell archives or other official archives and produce documentary evidence, let's not invent designations of any kind.

Yes Joey, it is proven that the "X-15D" configuration came from North American.

Read the beginning of this thread.

Note that I did not say "this "X-15D" designation". I said "this "X-15D" configuration".

 

[shockonlip]

Jos not Joey.

Sorry Dude!

 

[Jos Heyman]

Hmmm mate (no Dude's in Australia ;D), your first post is merely an indication that Plastic News was the first to adopt the X-15D for its advertising purposes. And, at best - as I suggested - it might have been a label to a North American drawing, but Plastic News does not make that connection properly - well, at least not in my 'historians' view.
I am just concerned that through this discussion we legitimate something that should not be legitimated unless we have that archival proof that I mentioned.
And if somebody produces a North American paper with the X-15D I will eat serious humble pie and will do so with great pleasure. .

And BTW to other readers, where did this Lockheed X-15C idea come from? Does anybody have a further referenceto that.

Finally to the moderators - perhaps we should move this discussion to another topic group?

 

[DSE]

[
Discusses how Marquardt built static test versions of the SERJ engine
and tested them, and then tried to get funding for building flight
test versions. Who they talked to about it (including Kelly at Skunk Works).

A fair bit of this stuff has been declassified and is on NTRS if you know what to look for. I'll start a new thread and post some links. Hopefully I'll get these correct the first time.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Scott has said the model design came right from the North American concept photo.

Correct.

He didn't say anything about how they came up with the X-15D designation,

Also correct.

I know of the X-15, X-15A-2, X-15A-3(delta wing) and X-15B (orbital) designations. The X-15C is unknown to me offhand; the X-15D designation was chosen by FP. Well, they had to call it *something.*

 

[shockonlip]

Hmmm mate (no Dude's in Australia ;D), your first post is merely an indication that Plastic News was the first to adopt the X-15D for its advertising purposes. And, at best - as I suggested - it might have been a label to a North American drawing, but Plastic News does not make that connection properly - well, at least not in my 'historians' view.
I am just concerned that through this discussion we legitimate something that should not be legitimated unless we have that archival proof that I mentioned.
And if somebody produces a North American paper with the X-15D I will eat serious humble pie and will do so with great pleasure. .

And BTW to other readers, where did this Lockheed X-15C idea come from? Does anybody have a further referenceto that.

Finally to the moderators - perhaps we should move this discussion to another topic group?

Well then mate, sorry for the name slip-up on my part !

Understand about your concern that the "X-15D" name is suddenly applied to this aircraft
because of the model.

I worry less about it because I think I can know the difference.

You may be right though.

I am just happy that I can buy this model and as Scott said, they had to call it something.

But you do have a valid concern.

As far as the X-15C, I think that Steve was maybe talking about the X-24C that Lockheed
proposed in the 1970s. It actually had a Lockheed L-301 designation if I recall.

You know, this North American design we've been discussing in this thread actually
reminds me of the X-24C as well. This may have been part of what North American was
thinking about for NHFRF, in the 1970's. Of course this needs research.

 

[shockonlip]

Scott has said the model design came right from the North American concept photo.

Correct.

He didn't say anything about how they came up with the X-15D designation,

Also correct.

I know of the X-15, X-15A-2, X-15A-3(delta wing) and X-15B (orbital) designations. The X-15C is unknown to me offhand; the X-15D designation was chosen by FP. Well, they had to call it *something.*

Thanks Scott!

I really think Steve was maybe referring to Lockheed's X-24C, and not X-15C, as I
said above to Jos. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Stargazer]

That's exactly what I thought, too when I read "X-15C"... A confusion with the L-301 or "X-24C".

 

[shockonlip]

[
Discusses how Marquardt built static test versions of the SERJ engine
and tested them, and then tried to get funding for building flight
test versions. Who they talked to about it (including Kelly at Skunk Works).

A fair bit of this stuff has been declassified and is on NTRS if you know what to look for. I'll start a new thread and post some links. Hopefully I'll get these correct the first time.

Please do DSE!!

Thanks ahead of time !!

 

[shockonlip]

That's exactly what I thought, too when I read "X-15C"... A confusion with the L-301 or "X-24C".

Interesting! You know what they say about great minds !

Seriously, we'll see if that's what happened.

I agree about your earlier post too Stargazer!

I actually like what Fantastic Plastic does, as it is imagery that some of
us think about anyway. They did rename Monogram's ""X-30" Supersonic Aircraft"
to "X-30 Hypersonic Bomber" on their site. I don't think Monogram ever called it
that but Monogram did portray it in more of a military color scheme. In reality
There were efforts during the NASP program at developing NDVs or NASP Derived
Vehicles, some of which were probably what you'd call hypersonic bombers.

I also appreciate Jos and others who have concerns though that it goes too far,
as far as confusing the historical record. I think we can disticguish though.

 

[Johnbr]

There is some info here.
http://up-ship.com/blog/?cat=7&paged=16