What is the earliest an airborne PESA radar is possible?

SSgtC

SSgtC

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Like the title says. I've been doing some digging on PESA radars, and trying to figure out the earliest you could build an airborne (preferably fighter sized) PESA radar. It seems like the concept and basic tech was there in the late 50s, with the needed miniaturization being possible by the late 60s with the adoption of solid state electronics. Is this roughly possible? Or is it way too early?
 
SSgtC said:
Like the title says. I've been doing some digging on PESA radars, and trying to figure out the earliest you could build an airborne (preferably fighter sized) PESA radar. It seems like the concept and basic tech was there in the late 50s, with the needed miniaturization being possible by the late 60s with the adoption of solid state electronics. Is this roughly possible? Or is it way too early?
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You could probably do a PESA fairly early on if you wanted too but why? PESA is pretty similar to MSA but some loss from Phase shifting, while having some other advantages like fast scanning and ability to rapidly change modes. Zaslon came about because it was a technologically cleaver way to fire multiple SAHR missiles at different targets. The B-1 was saved from having a separate terrain following radar, RBE2 allowed the Rafale to use multiple radar modes at once. What’s the need in the 50s?
 
F-2 said:
SSgtC said:
Like the title says. I've been doing some digging on PESA radars, and trying to figure out the earliest you could build an airborne (preferably fighter sized) PESA radar. It seems like the concept and basic tech was there in the late 50s, with the needed miniaturization being possible by the late 60s with the adoption of solid state electronics. Is this roughly possible? Or is it way too early?
Click to expand...
You could probably do a PESA fairly early on if you wanted too but why? PESA is pretty similar to MSA but some loss from Phase shifting, while having some other advantages like fast scanning and ability to rapidly change modes. Zaslon came about because it was a technologically cleaver way to fire multiple SAHR missiles at different targets. The B-1 was saved from having a separate terrain following radar, RBE2 allowed the Rafale to use multiple radar modes at once. What’s the need in the 50s?
Click to expand...
I'm not really looking at the 50s, more trying to find a way to upgrade fighter-type radars in the mid-to-late 60s. Mainly trying to think of a way for the UK to replace the AI.23 with a more "modern" radar. Just thinking it could be looked at as a way to keep more Pounds at home vs spending for the American AWG-10/APG-59.
 
SSgtC said:
F-2 said:
SSgtC said:
Like the title says. I've been doing some digging on PESA radars, and trying to figure out the earliest you could build an airborne (preferably fighter sized) PESA radar. It seems like the concept and basic tech was there in the late 50s, with the needed miniaturization being possible by the late 60s with the adoption of solid state electronics. Is this roughly possible? Or is it way too early?
Click to expand...
You could probably do a PESA fairly early on if you wanted too but why? PESA is pretty similar to MSA but some loss from Phase shifting, while having some other advantages like fast scanning and ability to rapidly change modes. Zaslon came about because it was a technologically cleaver way to fire multiple SAHR missiles at different targets. The B-1 was saved from having a separate terrain following radar, RBE2 allowed the Rafale to use multiple radar modes at once. What’s the need in the 50s?
Click to expand...
I'm not really looking at the 50s, more trying to find a way to upgrade fighter-type radars in the mid-to-late 60s. Mainly trying to think of a way for the UK to replace the AI.23 with a more "modern" radar. Just thinking it could be looked at as a way to keep more Pounds at home vs spending for the American AWG-10/APG-59.
Click to expand...
No technical reason it wouldn’t work, I’m not sure it would be “better” it would depend a lot on the role you had in mind. Westinghouse designed a PESA for the FB-111 a little after the time period your looking at.
 
F-2 said:
No technical reason it wouldn’t work, I’m not sure it would be “better” it would depend a lot on the role you had in mind. Westinghouse designed a PESA for the FB-111 a little after the time period your looking at.
Click to expand...
I'm looking at sticking it in the Hawker P.1121 (with a second crew member). Thinking for the interdiction role and possibly taking over for the Lightning in the air defense role of the UK.
 
SSgtC said:
I'm looking at sticking it in the Hawker P.1121 (with a second crew member). Thinking for the interdiction role and possibly taking over for the Lightning in the air defense role of the UK.
Click to expand...
So basically something similar to the version shown at Post #103 here or even the earlier P.1103 discussed here?
 
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F-2 said:
SSgtC said:
Like the title says. I've been doing some digging on PESA radars, and trying to figure out the earliest you could build an airborne (preferably fighter sized) PESA radar. It seems like the concept and basic tech was there in the late 50s, with the needed miniaturization being possible by the late 60s with the adoption of solid state electronics. Is this roughly possible? Or is it way too early?
Click to expand...
You could probably do a PESA fairly early on if you wanted too but why? PESA is pretty similar to MSA but some loss from Phase shifting, while having some other advantages like fast scanning and ability to rapidly change modes. Zaslon came about because it was a technologically cleaver way to fire multiple SAHR missiles at different targets. The B-1 was saved from having a separate terrain following radar, RBE2 allowed the Rafale to use multiple radar modes at once. What’s the need in the 50s?
Click to expand...
PESA has very low side lobes is a major advantage
 
I'd say you are looking at the late 60's for an operational aircraft set at the very earliest. That would require a pretty dedicated effort to get it developed--given less than a decade from proof of concept (1959). The resulting radar would have to be pretty large by aircraft standards of the day to work acceptably and cramming it into a typical late 60's early 70's fighter might be difficult to do due to the state of solid-state electronics development.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
I'd say you are looking at the late 60's for an operational aircraft set at the very earliest. That would require a pretty dedicated effort to get it developed--given less than a decade from proof of concept (1959). The resulting radar would have to be pretty large by aircraft standards of the day to work acceptably and cramming it into a typical late 60's early 70's fighter might be difficult to do due to the state of solid-state electronics development.
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Kinda what I was leaning towards. Maybe have a planned introduction around 1968/69, with it slipping to the 71/72 time frame
 
I have to backtrack a bit - I have to find the article in AWST I was thinking of, but in 1969 the choice was Hughes or Westinghouse, neither PESA.
 
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Found it.

Emerson and Raytheon both worked on phased arrays for possible FX application. Neither were finalists however. Both were based on work done for the RARF program initiated in 1965 by the USAF Avionics Laboratory, Wright-Patterson AFB. It was most likely deemed too high risk.

AWST 15th April 1968
 

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The Air Force and Navy both have sponsored substantial development effort in the area of airborne phased-array radar technology in the effort to acquire multi-mode radars that are capable of performing such multiple functions as terrain following, fire control, and weapon delivery. The components and other technology developed for electronic beam forming, scanning, and processing have possible future application to air traffic control and landing systems for use at high traffic density terminals. In 1965, the Air Force initiated effort to develop Radome and Radio Frequency (RARF) components for airborne phased-array radar applications, and flight tests were begun in 1970. Also starting in 1965, a phased-array antenna was built by Maxson Electronics for the Navy. It was flight tested in 1969. Another pioneering effort of the Air Force was the Molecular Electronics for Radar Applications (MERA) phased array development, which demonstrated the solid state active element concept. Operational applications of this type of radar are expected in the near future.
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R&D CONTRIBUTIONS TO AVIATION PROGRESS [RADCAP] 1972


Note that MERA is an AESA radar.
 
That pencil shaped phase shifter reminds me of Russian phase shifters for the S-300 family radars. and it's interesting to see that the phased array are Backplane feed for Emerson. Optical feed will indeed save weight by eliminating complex "pyramidal" shape feed network but it's gonna need an exclusive volume for itself.

The reflective array PESA for Raytheon design is like Pero. It might be inferior however to Emerson design due to increased level of sidelobe generated from interaction of the reflected wave with the feed horn support.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Found it.

Emerson and Raytheon both worked on phased arrays for possible FX application. Neither were finalists however. Both were based on work done for the RARF program initiated in 1965 by the USAF Avionics Laboratory, Wright-Patterson AFB. It was most likely deemed too high risk.

AWST 15th April 1968
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That was an interesting article. It sounds like the proposed Emerson set had some big advantages over systems like the APG-63. Though it does seem to be a higher risk system and likely deemed not worth the cost/risk with concurrent development happening of AESA radars at the same time
 
The very earliest airborne application of phased array radar technology would be the late-WW2 AN/APQ-7? Very far removed from a tactical fighter radar though.
 
SSgtC said:
Mainly trying to think of a way for the UK to replace the AI.23 with a more "modern" radar.
Click to expand...
Obviously at the time the UK went down the rabbit hole of FMCW to FMICW systems. Which reflects the resources of the times.
But in theory......rather as with the whole Type 985 to NIGS the ability to theorise such PESA and AESA did exist but lacked funding for turning that into reality.

An irony of the real world efforts was the realisation the computer processing and dare we say....the software of what the radar generates was more important.

Hence ADAWS.

However, had that funding been available.....
But it is difficult to see them retro-fitting such to older aircraft. It would be focused on OR.346 and it's successors.
 

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