What if : "Only deltas" French Air Force post Mirage III

[Deltafan]

Well, my "fantasy world" of French Air Forces from the beginning of the 60's

-Dassault does not choose the Mirage F-2, but a delta derivative of the Mirage III to test the SNECMA TF-306 : the Mirage III T2.

-The politic problems of the TF-306 are the same as in our world and the successor of the Mirage III is the derivative Mirage III Atar 9K50 (Mirage "50"), but with leading-edge root extensions (like the Mirage IIIV) and with a kerosene carrying capacity equal to that of the Mirage F-1. The latest versions can be improved with little canards, an early M-53 (8,5T) engine and Fly-by-wire system.

-In this world, the Mirage F-1 and the Jaguar don't exist (replaced then by at least 462 Mirage "50") and the Mirage 2000 does not exist in the form we know : it's a derivative of the Mirage "50" with more powerful M-53 (9,2-->9,7T), Fly-by-wire from the beginning, biggest canards and missiles rails on the wingtips (like on wings projects for South Africa Mirage III derivatives). A lot of money is saved.

-With this saved money, there are no Mirage G4/G8 prototypes but bi-engines delta prototypes to prepare the Mirage 4000 (the same as in our world) and to order a "lot" (at least 161) of this Mirage 4000. A part of these Mirage 4000 (75) replace the atomic bomber Mirage IV. The (at least 30 B and 124 C) Mirage "2000" are used alongside the Mirage 4000.

-For the French Navy, the successor of the Super Etendard and the Vought F-8 is a one-engined Rafale (maybe 80) with enhanced (10,5T or more if improved by "dextre" program) M-53 (a bigger Novi-Avion). The terrestrial version can replace the Mirage "2000" in the French Air Force and on the export markets. With the saved money, France has two Charles de Gaulle class aircraft carriers.

-With the pairs Mirage "2000"/Mirage 4000 and, later, one-engined Rafale/Mirage 4000 France is present on the export markets for heavy and light combat aircraft.

-The successor of the second pair is a bi- more powerful M-88 (9T) engined stealthed Rafale, with twin vertical stabilizers, for French Air Force and Navy (320) and export markets. New versions have 11T M-88 engines.

I had a dream...

 

[Archibald]

what's not to like in this scenario ?

 

[Deltafan]

To be only a what if

 

[Lascaris]

What is the one engined Rafale replacing? 86 airframes for the navy are not enough for a viable program. It could be the first batches of the call it Mirage Delta, but if the French already have *Mirage 4000 around why the AdA won't be asking for more of these instead?

 

[Deltafan]

In my "what if" world, France does like US with F-15/F-16 and F-14/F-18. It's to have light and heavy combat aircrafts for export markets.

about "viable" programs, in our world (and in my "what if" world) France bought only 71 Super Etendard for the French Navy and sold only 14 more for the export market (Argentina).

With 80 one-engined Rafale for the French Navy, 30 to replace Mirage "2000" B and 124 to replace Mirage "2000" C, it's enough (234) for a viable program (in our world, France bought 246 Mirage F1)

For the Mirage 4000, with 75 "N" (in our world France bought 75 Mirage 2000 N) for strategic bombing and 86 "B" for strike missions (in our world, France bought 86 Mirage 2000 B) I said "at least". In our world some possibilities was studied for the beginning of the Mirage 4000. For example : with 5 pre-serie 4000 in France, Saudi-Arabia was ready to buy 300 Mirage 4000. With all the money saved with the Mirage "50" and Mirage "2000" of my "what if" world (instead of Jaguar, F1 and 2000 of our world) and the money of, at least, 300 Mirage 4000 from export market, Mirage 4000 "C" for french Air Force (50, 60 or more) would have been a beautiful one long range fighter aircraft (alongside one-engined shorter range Rafale).

 

[Deltafan]

What could have been a beautiful one "what if" Mirage "2000" (except the front view), with 9,2 to 10,5 T engine… (OK, the Mirage 4000 like canopy and the real Mirage 2000 like wing roots are maybe a little "too much")

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/re-unbuilt-prototype-mirages-1955-1980.29859/

 

[Lascaris]

In my "what if" world, France does like US with F-15/F-16 and F-14/F-18. It's to have light and heavy combat aircrafts for export markets.

about "viable" programs, in our world (and in my "what if" world) France bought only 71 Super Etendard for the French Navy and sold only 14 more for the export market (Argentina).

With 80 one-engined Rafale for the French Navy, 30 to replace Mirage "2000" B and 124 to replace Mirage "2000" C, it's enough (234) for a viable program (in our world, France bought 246 Mirage F1)

For the Mirage 4000, with 75 "N" (in our world France bought 75 Mirage 2000 N) for strategic bombing and 86 "B" for strike missions (in our world, France bought 86 Mirage 2000 B) I said "at least". In our world some possibilities was studied for the beginning of the Mirage 4000. For example : with 5 pre-serie 4000 in France, Saudi-Arabia was ready to buy 300 Mirage 4000. With all the money saved with the Mirage "50" and Mirage "2000" of my "what if" world (instead of Jaguar, F1 and 2000 of our world) and the money of, at least, 300 Mirage 4000 from export market, Mirage 4000 "C" for french Air Force (50, 60 or more) would have been a beautiful one long range fighter aircraft (alongside one-engined shorter range Rafale).

Super Etendard was not exactly a clean seat design, it was just an evolution of Etendard IV. TTL we have in total some 560 Mirages built, lets call it 167 Mirage D3C (D for delta), 160 D3A (strike in place of Jaguar) and 233 Mirage D3E (the M53 version in place of the last 79 Mirage F-1s and 154 Mirage 2000s). This provides roughly enough money for the 161 Mirage 4000 mentioned.

At that point what role is out Novi Avion playing? The air force could buy 234 new Mirage 4000s at 23.4 billion and give say about 800 on a limited number of F/A-18 and still spare around 22 billion to go directly to a 5th gen fighter...

 

[uk 75]

This would make for a great set of stories in the glorious coloured graphic novels in French which are one of my great pleasures thanks to Amazon

 

[Deltafan]

In my "what if" world, France does like US with F-15/F-16 and F-14/F-18. It's to have light and heavy combat aircrafts for export markets.

about "viable" programs, in our world (and in my "what if" world) France bought only 71 Super Etendard for the French Navy and sold only 14 more for the export market (Argentina).

With 80 one-engined Rafale for the French Navy, 30 to replace Mirage "2000" B and 124 to replace Mirage "2000" C, it's enough (234) for a viable program (in our world, France bought 246 Mirage F1)

For the Mirage 4000, with 75 "N" (in our world France bought 75 Mirage 2000 N) for strategic bombing and 86 "B" for strike missions (in our world, France bought 86 Mirage 2000 B) I said "at least". In our world some possibilities was studied for the beginning of the Mirage 4000. For example : with 5 pre-serie 4000 in France, Saudi-Arabia was ready to buy 300 Mirage 4000. With all the money saved with the Mirage "50" and Mirage "2000" of my "what if" world (instead of Jaguar, F1 and 2000 of our world) and the money of, at least, 300 Mirage 4000 from export market, Mirage 4000 "C" for french Air Force (50, 60 or more) would have been a beautiful one long range fighter aircraft (alongside one-engined shorter range Rafale).

Super Etendard was not exactly a clean seat design, it was just an evolution of Etendard IV. TTL we have in total some 560 Mirages built, lets call it 167 Mirage D3C (D for delta), 160 D3A (strike in place of Jaguar) and 233 Mirage D3E (the M53 version in place of the last 79 Mirage F-1s and 154 Mirage 2000s). This provides roughly enough money for the 161 Mirage 4000 mentioned.

At that point what role is out Novi Avion playing? The air force could buy 234 new Mirage 4000s at 23.4 billion and give say about 800 on a limited number of F/A-18 and still spare around 22 billion to go directly to a 5th gen fighter...

Well, in the title I wrote "only deltas French Air Force post-Mirage III", but, in fact my "what if" world needs only deltas for French Navy too… That's why there can't be F-18s on french carriers…
I "needed" too a light combat aircraft for export markets.
In our world, the Mirage III and the Mirage 2000 cannot be used on carriers. In my "what if" world, the Mirage "50" and Mirage "2000", two stages dérivatives of the Mirage III, are not capable of being used on aircraft carriers either.
But the Rafale can be used on carrier and the "Mini Rafale" Novi Avion and the first studies of the Rafale were one-engined projects. A one-engined Rafale with, at least, 10,5 T engine, would be able to be used on a carrier and would be more capable than the Mirage "2000" of my "what if" world (more discret, with more fuel, more combat range, more carrying capacities).