Westland Wessex replacement before Puma (WG.4/WG.7/WG.8?)

[uk 75]

Having re-read the excellent Westland threads on this site I am still puzzled by what happened at Westland after they dropped the Westminster (WG7?) and went in with Sud Aviation to give the RAF the Puma SA330.

Some sources suggest that Westland intended to use a UK version of a contemporary Sikorsky design as its candidate for the RAF requirement later met by the Puma. It would be fascinating to see what the RAF might have got instead of the Puma.

UK 75

 

[frank]

Sea King or Jolly Green Giant?

Having re-read the excellent Westland threads on this site I am still puzzled by what happened at Westland after they dropped the Westminster (WG7?) and went in with Sud Aviation to give the RAF the Puma SA330.

Some sources suggest that Westland intended to use a UK version of a contemporary Sikorsky design as its candidate for the RAF requirement later met by the Puma. It would be fascinating to see what the RAF might have got instead of the Puma.

UK 75

 

[PMN1]

Not to mention foreign sales...........

 

[Jemiba]

According to "Westland Aircraft since 1915" by Derek N.James, the WG.7
was a "Twin turboshaft ASW medium lift helicopter", there's no mentioning,
if it was based on the Westminster, although it seems quite logical. The next
mentioned projects are the WG.12, WG.13 (too small) and the WG.11 (Too
big). Maybe one of several tilt-wing designs could have done the trick, like
this for OR.358 from 1962 ?
Westland could have built the first Osprey !

 

[Thorvic]

Jemba

Have you the dimensions for the Westland OR358 ?

Cheers

Geoff

 

[Jemiba]

Given in the Putnam Westland book is only the rotor diameter of 65 ft (19,82m).
Taken for certain, that the given drawing was accurate, fuselage length
was 22,5m, span without rotor 24,9m.

 

[uk 75]

Somewhere years ago in a magazine I saw a chart with microscopic pictures of planned Westland types and I think it mentioned WG4, WG7 and WG8 as numbers relating to the Wessex replacement. I have always assumed that as Westland already had the Seaking in mind for the RN ASW replacement from about 1963, the S61 would have been the basis for its other Wessex replacement bids.
As I write this, another Puma has gone down in the UK. A moment's silence and respect as ever for the brave crew and passengers, two of whom died.

UK 75

 

[uk 75]

A thread some years ago and also Chris Gibson's new book described the characteristics
of thre Westland projects in the early 60s aimed at replacing the Wessex before the Puma.
As someone who enjoys trying to track down drawings of what if stuff the closeet I have
been able come is a small drawing of Westland ptrojects from Air Pictorial which I
have lost and a Westland licence build of the S61 as used by BEA.
Does anyone know more?

 

[hesham]

Hi UK75,

I will search about them in my magazines,I have more than 7000 one,but I will take sometimes.

 

[uk 75]

hesham
You are very kind. The only magazine source I know of is a series of ultra small silhouettes
in a chart in Air Pictorial.
I had it as a cutting for years in Project Cancelled, but it seems to have fallen out.

I am really surprised that there are so few drawings from Westlands available

 

[hesham]

Hi UK 75,

maybe I will find something.

 

[zebedee]

Any idea which year Air Pictorial...?

Zeb

 

[lark]

Gentlemen ,

Think it is : Air Pictorial Febr.1973

Westland Lynx : Development and Progress to date
by ELFAN ap REES
pages 58 to 64. including shaded sideviews and some 3-views

At your service.

 

[hesham]

Many thanks to you my dear Lark.

 

[hesham]

Via my dear Lark,

and from Air Pictorial 2/1973,there was a full Info about WG.3,a small Info about WG.4,
and a more Info from Flightglobal.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1974/1974%20-%201301.PDF

 

[Thorvic]

Has anybody seen any images of the WG4 or WG7, I have a feeling James & Chris have not been able to find anything on this type for their PSP and as the Haynes Manual on the Sea King mentions the WG-7G shortlisted for the JNAST.365 which mentions the WG.7G as being Twin Rotor, which suggests a V-107 size type with a pair of Gnomes, yet other references to WG7 state a single rotor helicopter ?

 

[Hood]

I haven't seen any reference to the WG.7G being a twin-rotor. I've seen it compared to the WG.7E, the G having greater gross weight and said to be better in terms of growth.
The WG.7 series was seemingly developed specifically to meet NASR.365. From the descriptions in the official MOD files it had a folding tail and was airportable inside a C-130 and Belfast and was no larger than a Wessex. This tends to discredit the idea Westland would attempt to make a bigger tandem rotor version and it would seem to be totally against what NASR.365 was for, a smaller helicopter than the Chinook being offered to NASR.358. Also a tandem rotor on just two Gnomes would be stretching things in terms of engine out safety etc. (again another bugbear with NASR.358).

 

[Yellow Palace]

Is there any indication of what the WG.4 would have looked like?

The description in The Admiralty and the Helicopter - Sea King dynamics, ramp, 24 seats, 17,400 lb gross weight - sounds a lot like an S-61R, perhaps slimmed down a bit but the design gross weight of the SH-3A was 17,200 lb so not necessarily all that much. That suggests that the Navy just buying the WG.4 to AW.168(T) in 1963 would have saved them two years of studies and got an aircraft with (perhaps) more UK content.

Obviously later Sea Kings were heavier than the SH-3A - but then, if they had growth in them, presumably so too would the WG.4.

 

[Hood]

Sadly the WG.4 remains elusive.