Westland W.80, W.81, W.85 and W.90 Goliath

[Jemiba]

I like the Goliath, I've found somehhere in the net, which probably is
identical to the W.90 from Derek James "Westland aircraft".
Not beautiful, but big ...

 

[rotorheadtx]

Here's another one for the Goliath file:

 

[Skybolt]

This is what I found today in Aviation Week, August 20, 1951, pag. 30. The scan if from a photocopy, so excuse me for the bad quality. From bottom left to top right the choppers are: S-51, S-55 (license built), W-80, W-81 and W-85. W-85 data are: weight 50 ton, payload 15 tons, rotor diameter 110 ft. Judging from the men size, it was a smaller forerunner of the Goliath.

 

[Jemiba]

Just two 3-views, the W.80 and the W.90 Goliath from
"Westland Aircraft since 1915" by Derek N.James, Putnam :

 

[robunos]

Just two 3-views, the W.80 and the W.90 Goliath from
"Westland Aircraft since 1915" by Derek N.James, Putnam :

i have that book, but i don't remember seeing these illustrations, what edition are they from?, i have the one with the painting on the dust jacket.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Jemiba]

Sorry, I've never seen the dust jacket, I've got my hands on it in the states library
heer in Berlin, it must have been the 1991 edition, if I can trust the catalogue.

 

[robunos]

thanks for that, wil have to have a dig in my boxes.

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Barrington Bond]

Bit better picture of that photocopy a few messages up...

 

[Barrington Bond]

From Boys Book Of Jets...

 

[hesham]

Hi,

a 2-view to Westland projects.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1952/1952%20-%202447.html

 

[lark]

Let's try to give the 'children' a name Hesham.

1:Westland W-85
2:left-Westland W-81
2:right-Westland W-80

 

[Arjen]

From Vliegwereld, November 8th 1951.
Westland W80 was supposed to have two "Alvis Leonides 14-cylinder" engines according to the accompanying text. I assume those would have been Alvis Leonides Majors.
20 passengers, podded engines outside the fuselage.
Rotor diameter: 22.8 m
Fuselage length: 18.3 m
Weight: 6,575 kg
Cruising speed: 215 km/h

Westland W81:
30 passengers
Power plant: Armstrong Siddeley Double Mamba
Rotor diameter: 22.8 m
Fuselage length: 19.8 m
Weight: 8,150 kg
Cruising speed: 300 km/h

Westland W85:
102 troops / 15 troops + 3 jeeps + 3 artillery pieces
Power plant: 6 * Armstrong Siddeley Adder
Rotor diameter: 31.7 m
Fuselage length: 19.5 m
Weight: 24,000 kg
Cruising speed: 195 km/h
Two AS Adders were to be fitted in each of the three rotortips.

 

[cluttonfred]

I love the W.85 and W.90 Goliath designs, truly awe-inspiring in scale and remarkably simple in concept.

Still, I have to wonder how the planned to handle any uneven fuel burn between the engines or, God forbid, an engine out, since the fuel was stored in the rotors. I can't see how the out of balance rotor wouldn't cause more than a little headache.

Also, in the days before fly-by-wire and digital data links, routing engine controls and gauge connections through the rotor hub to and from the engines must have been quie a challenge. With those issues in mind, a cold jet arrangment seems much less complex, though probably also less efficient.

 

[Stargazer]

General arrangements of the W.81 and W.90 as published in the book Westland 50 in 1965:

 

[Stargazer]

Text about the W.81 from the same source:

With Britain setting the pace in turbine engine production, it was natural that Westland should study the possible application of shaft-turbine power to helicopter design. One outcome of these studies was the twin-engined W-81 project of 1951. It was highly ambitious, with a payload of 32 fully-armed troops or four tons of cargo, loaded weight of 19,000 lb., estimated maximum cruising speed of 180 m.p.h. and maximum range of 950 nautical miles. Even the standard large helicopters if 1965 hardly exceed such a performance, but this is not the primary reason why the W-81 deserves to be remembered. So far as is known, it was the first helicopter design produced anywhere in the world in which the engines (Armstrong Siddeley Double Mamba) were mounted in the now-conventional position, above the cabin. Westland was, thus, the first company to realise that the comparatively small size and weight of turbine engines would enable them to be removed from inside the fuselage, giving much greater room for payload and facilitating loading and unloading, as well as reducing the complexity and weight of the transmission system.
The W-81 came to nothing because there was no current requirement for such a large machine. So Westland began examining the possibility of adapting standard Sikorsky airframes to turbine power.

 

[Stargazer]

Text about the W.80, W.85 and W.90 from the same source:

In addition to the effort expended in Anglicising and developing the Sikorsky designs and selecting British equivalents for the original U.S. materials on the Dragonfly and Whirlwind helicopters, the Westland design office initiated a number of interesting original helicopter projects of its own.

Three such projects, undertaken in the early nineteen-fifties, were the W-80, W-85 and W-90.

The W-80 was a 36-seat, 24,500 lb. machine intended for inter-city work. Drawings prepared at the time show a machine of relatively fine lines, powered by two Bristol Hercules engines, mounted in outboard nacelles. The driveshafts from the engines were mounted at right-angles to the line of flight and inclined in a vertical plane towards the main gearbox above the cabin roof. Considerable development work was undertaken on the design of the gearbox units required for this type of twin-engined drive to a single rotor.

The W-85 was a projected 100-seat military helicopter powered by six Armstrong Siddeley Adder turbojet engines mounted in pairs on each blade-tip. The machine had nose-loading doors, with a small passenger-sized ventral exit at the rear. The crew compartment was located high in the fuselage, above the nose doors. With a rotor diameter of 104 ft., this machine had an all-up weight in the 60,000 lb. class.

Most impressive project of all was the W-90. This design for a 450-seat military helicopter was powered by three large Armstrong Siddeley turbojet engines mounted one on each blade of the 196 ft. diameter main rotor. It looked like a scaled-up version of W-80, with nose-loading doors and a ventral entrance. The troops were carried on three separate decks, the lower one of which could be used for the carriage of army vehicles or artillery. All-up weight of this huge machine was over 200,000 lb.

Projects for a number of Navy spotter helicopters were also undertaken during this period.

NOTE: Bold type is mine.

 

[bigvlada]

How would the troops get out of W-90 in a scenario where it is hit by a SA missile, similar to what happened to Mi 26 in Chechnya?

 

[Jemiba]

Is or was there any helicopter, intended as a troop transport, that was fitted with special
systems to increase the chances of the occupants in the case of a catastophic failure in
the air ? Crashworthy seats, some kind of protection against light groundfire and splinters
and of course chaff/flares and ECM suits are used today, of course, but if this doesn't help,
the only chance still is to reach the ground in a way, that enables an escape there.

 

[Barrington Bond]

From American Helicopter May 1952 and I assume it is the W.90 Goliath as the article does not mention it by name.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

https://books.google.ie/books?id=yNwDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[TsrJoe]

Westland W.81, manufacturers display model, International Helicopter Museum, Weston Super Mare

 

[hesham]

Westland W.81, manufacturers display model, International Helicopter Museum, Weston Super Mare

Wow,amazing find my dear.

 

[hesham]

From Ailes 11/10/1951.

 

[aladik2000]

You guys inspire and help me to do this work, ENJOY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoRpz9qwFA&feature=youtu.be

 

[Schneiderman]

Can anyone point to a reliable source, i.e. Westland or other with inside knowledge, that refers to the W.90 as 'Goliath'? Personally I think that this is an internet myth, along with the Saro P.192 being called 'Queen', but am willing to be proven wrong.

 

[Hood]

Can anyone point to a reliable source, i.e. Westland or other with inside knowledge, that refers to the W.90 as 'Goliath'? Personally I think that this is an internet myth, along with the Saro P.192 being called 'Queen', but am willing to be proven wrong.

My gut feeling is along your lines. Even the period sources presented in this thread from non-specialist books/magazines don't use that moniker.

 

[GT6Boy]

You guys inspire and help me to do this work, ENJOY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CoRpz9qwFA&feature=youtu.be

Excellent work- thank you

 

[Richard N]

Another piece of aladik's work.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKyuEBkhPjI

 

[aladik2000]

Is or was there any helicopter, intended as a troop transport, that was fitted with special
systems to increase the chances of the occupants in the case of a catastophic failure in
the air ? Crashworthy seats, some kind of protection against light groundfire and splinters
and of course chaff/flares and ECM suits are used today, of course, but if this doesn't help,
the only chance still is to reach the ground in a way, that enables an escape there.

These transport helicopters are not intended for flights in a combat zone, they are rather rear delivery vehicles, if they hit them, all hope for autorotation and pilot skill.

 

[aladik2000]

How would the troops get out of W-90 in a scenario where it is hit by a SA missile, similar to what happened to Mi 26 in Chechnya?

These transport helicopters are not intended for flights in a combat zone, they are rather rear delivery vehicles, if they hit them, all hope for autorotation and pilot skill.

 

[aladik2000]

I love the W.85 and W.90 Goliath designs, truly awe-inspiring in scale and remarkably simple in concept.

Still, I have to wonder how the planned to handle any uneven fuel burn between the engines or, God forbid, an engine out, since the fuel was stored in the rotors. I can't see how the out of balance rotor wouldn't cause more than a little headache.

Also, in the days before fly-by-wire and digital data links, routing engine controls and gauge connections through the rotor hub to and from the engines must have been quie a challenge. With those issues in mind, a cold jet arrangment seems much less complex, though probably also less efficient.

In W.90 Goliath, the fuel tanks are under the floor of the cargobay, not in the blades, when one of the motors is turned off, the inertia and gyroscopic effect of a huge propeller would compensate for the imbalance, and control of the thrust of the engines is no more difficult than that on convertiplanes with their motors on the wings

 

[cluttonfred]

You guys inspire and help me to do this work, ENJOY

Wonderful renderings, aladik2000, thanks very much for sharing. If you are looking for inspiration, I suggest starting a thread in the bar describing what sorts of topics interest you and asking for ideas, I am sure this forum's members can provide many. Cheers, Matthew

 

[aladik2000]

You guys inspire and help me to do this work, ENJOY

Wonderful renderings, aladik2000, thanks very much for sharing. If you are looking for inspiration, I suggest starting a thread in the bar describing what sorts of topics interest you and asking for ideas, I am sure this forum's members can provide many. Cheers, Matthew

Thanks, for now i'm making two more interesting helicopters. Maybe after that i'll ask.

 

[Ekimwest]

Westland did some work developing the engines. In a review of Westland Helicopter Activities 1946-60 by O Fitzwilliams for the Royal Aeronautical Society he says “During 1954 we made some progress toward the design of a gyroscopically balanced tip turbojet. This effort included some work on Michell-type bearings which later produced experimental results of some interest for the future. Westland work in this field led to many studies by Armstrong Siddeley (1958-59) and a recent study by Rolls-Royce (1963)”.

It seems the W.85 and W.90 came about by accident. Fitzwilliams says they originated as illustrations for a lecture he gave in 1951. He says “....this lecture aroused a good deal of interest and the performance, rotor systems and structures of the two more interesting examples were examined in sufficient detail, and showed sufficient promise, to be supported by the Company as a basis for exploratory discussions, particularly with the Army”. He made no mention of the name ‘Goliath’.

Interestingly, he also mentions that the Westland submission for the 1953 H.144T Ultra Light Helicopter (won by the Fairey Ultralight) included an appendix offering tip turbojets as an alternative to the pulse jets in the main proposal.

I think it’s safe to say these machines would’ve made a fearsomely impressive noise!

 

[hesham]

From Flight 1951.

 

[cluttonfred]

Cool, hesham, thanks for sharing. Are the FLIGHT archives available again online or is this from another source?

 

[hesham]

Cool, hesham, thanks for sharing. Are the FLIGHT archives available again online or is this from another source?

It's from Google's book.

 

[hesham]

From L'Air 1953.

 

[Barrington Bond]

American Helicopter May 1952.