Washington DC air collision (January 2025)

Grey Havoc

Grey Havoc

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www.bbc.com

Washington DC plane crash live updates: No survivors expected after plane and helicopter crash over Potomac River

The American Airlines flight was carrying 64 people when it collided with a Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan National Airport.
www.bbc.com

www.bbc.com

Air traffic controllers appear to try to stop collision

Cut-down audio of air traffic controllers seemingly directing the helicopter to avoid the plane.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

www.bbc.com

American Airlines jet collides with helicopter in Washington DC: What we know so far

The aircraft collided with a military helicopter that was on a training flight as it approached the runway.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

www.telegraph.co.uk

Washington DC plane crash: ‘No survivors’ after helicopter and jet collide

There are believed to be “no survivors” from the American Airlines plane and military helicopter which crashed near Washington DC’s Ronald Reagan Airport last night, the local fire chief said.
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

www.telegraph.co.uk

Washington plane crash: The footage that shows what went wrong

A web camera captured the moment a US army helicopter collided with American Airlines Flight 5342 as it descended over the Potomac River
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk



RIP
:(
 
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Very sad. Similar to JAL516. FAA should make the usage of HUD mandatory in IFR conditions with an over the nose camera repetiter on the dashboard (or surrimposed with ILS screen).
We are 20 years in the 21st century where digital CAM surged in every street corners.There is no economical reasons to not have this implemented when it represents only a fraction of crew costs.

Idem for cockpit video recorders.
 
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TomcatViP said:
Very sad. Similar to JAL516. FAA should make the usage of HUD mandatory in IFR conditions with an over the nose camera repetiter on the dashboard.
We are 20 years in the 21st century where digital CAM surged in every street corners.There is no economical reasons to not have this implemented when it represents only a fraction of crew costs.

Idem for cockpit video recorders.
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The FAA is going to be lucky to survive the next few years, the nonpartisan Administrator was already forced out for not bending/waiving regulations far enough for the current DOTUS. Adding a major new regulation like this with any kind of immediate effect is, to put it mildly, unrealistic.
 
That is a very congested airspace where prohibited airspace forces traffic through specific corridors, increasing the congestion. The VH-60 (VIP Blackhawk) was flying a heavily traveled helicopter route and asked if they had the CRJ in sight on a different frequency that the CRJ crew could not hear. Even with TCAS the CRJ crew may not have seen the helicopter under 1,000 feet. Also, considering that the CRJ side-stepped to Runway 33 from Runway 1, placing the aircraft in a bank angle where it may not have had a visual on the helicopter (crew likely focused on the Runway 1 for a visual approach and unable to see the helicopter). The helicopter crew could have also mistaken another aircraft for the CRJ in order to maintain visual separation and never saw the approaching aircraft. Because neither aircraft attempted to alter course or altitude neither likely saw the other until it was too late.

I think the helicopter routes should be forced out further from the airport if not flying either direct to the airport for landing or to transition directly over the top of the airport to transit the airspace.
 
Trump has just given a press conference blaming the crash on Diversity hiring at the FAA and the helicopter having a very bad angle.
The FAA are "Actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions".

Anyway in the real world.
Helicopter was flying exactly the recommended fightpath, however there is a ceiling of 200ft for helicopters in the Washington area and the helicopter was flying at 300ft.
 
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WatcherZero said:
Trump has just given a press conference blaming the crash on Diversity hiring at the FAA and the helicopter having a very bad angle.
The FAA are "Actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems and other mental and physical conditions".

Anyway in the real world.
Helicopter was flying exactly the recommended fightpath, however there is a ceiling of 200ft for helicopters in the Washington area and the helicopter was flying at 300ft.
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Air Traffic Controller here. Yes, there are bids out there to hire folks with disabilities. However, competency exams, physicals, and psychological exams have to be passed before you can go to Oklahoma for the school. I have feed footage of the collision and from what I know the controller did everything correct. The only thing I would have done differently is ensured the CRJ seen the 60 first and if not, execute missed approach.
 
edwest4 said:
So? I want to see a detailed investigation.
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The NTSB report should be adequate as always. From what I seen is when the CRJ did it's turn to line up with the runway they impacted. In a banking turn to the left while descending for the runway, there was no way he would have seen the helicopter.
 
I want to see an official investigation too edwest4, only then will we get some answers to this tragic accident. They have recovered both Black Boxes of the plane, But why do helicopters not carry Black Boxes too? Something far wrong there and it need to be looked at.
 
@FlyGuy369 : Not sure of that. They should have had their eyes scanning out. The change in rwy probably diverted them from this (sorting airport charts, ILS frequency etc...).

The Blackhawk pilots were described wearing nvg on them, what implies a reduced vision scan pattern. Airport lighting might also have had some negative influence depending on what set they had with them.

But as you said, asking for visual confirmation could have done the trick.
 
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Who cares? The investigation. Let's see the investigation.

* Not: The airliner was piloted by a recent DEI hire whose previous experience was limited to selling illegal drugs on street corners.
 
FighterJock said:
I want to see an official investigation too edwest4, only then will we get some answers to this tragic accident. They have recovered both Black Boxes of the plane, But why do helicopters not carry Black Boxes too? Something far wrong there and it need to be looked at.
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What makes you think they don't? There are in fact both CVR and FDR on Army Black Hawks.

And of course there will be an official investigation. NTSB is already on scene; that's what they do.
 

(AP) NTSB board member Todd Inman says a preliminary report will be released within 30 days​


By LEA SKENE


“Our mission is to understand not just what happened but why it happened, and to recommend changes to prevent it from happening again,” Inman said at a Thursday afternoon news conference.
 
Moose said:
The FAA is going to be lucky to survive the next few years, the nonpartisan Administrator was already forced out for not bending/waiving regulations far enough for the current DOTUS. Adding a major new regulation like this with any kind of immediate effect is, to put it mildly, unrealistic.
Click to expand...

That we are all aligned, here is the story:

www.yahoo.com

FAA Got Rid of Its Leader Before D.C. Plane Crash—Thanks to Elon Musk

The world’s richest man apparently thought it was a good idea to bully the Federal Aviation Administration chief out of his job.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
 
1738271923867.png
Helicopter routes around DC. Route 1 and Route 4, which the Blackhawk was flying (Route 4 and the approach end of Runway 33 is where the impact occurred) is the route closest to the approach end of any runway. I think that a repositioning of this route along the dotted Police air units routing to the east is an option.
 
The FAA has always had a contentious relationship with aviation and space entrepreneurs (if you've ever known anyone that has tried to start a Part 141 flight school, Part 135 air charter, Part 121 airline, or even launch a rocket) the FAA's FSDO is a hurdle that is high and long. The FAA used to be an agency that promoted aviation and safety at the same time as they are responsible for insuring public safety from aviation related activities. They later found that doing both was counter productive. The balance was too hard to accomplish so the FAA has focused strictly on safety, hence the red tape that Musk and others experience.
 
FAA has said Washington Air Traffic Control was undermanned, they normally have one controller dedicated to helicopters but a person was controlling both planes and copters at the time, it is permissible for one person to perform both roles though.
 
Sat view with trajectory:

Southbound: Blackhawk
Northbound: CRJ
ai2html-graphic-mobile375.5ae46328.jpg


The White house is in the top right corner
The Pentagon, on top third left edge

The Potomac is freezing cold in January. It's also a really dark area for a capital city (the river is twice as large as the Seine in Paris, and Similar to the Thames around Greenwich).
 
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TomcatViP said:
Sat view with trajectory:

Southbound: Blackhawk
Northbound: CRJ
ai2html-graphic-mobile375.5ae46328.jpg


The White house is in the top right corner
The Pentagon, on top third left edge
Click to expand...
The US Capitol is in the top right, the White House is north of the Washington memorial off the top edge
 
Oh, I'm in the mood to toss this in to the stream,

Airline collision close calls are on the rise partly because there's not enough people working the high-paid, high-stress job that prevents them
Juliana Kaplan, Hannah Towey, and Taylor Rains
Aug 22, 2023, 2:08 PM CDT

www.businessinsider.com

Airline collision close calls are on the rise partly because there's not enough people working the high-paid, high-stress job that prevents them

An air traffic controller shortage is part of the reason so many planes nearly collide. The job pays well but is also high stress.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

The Times found — through an analysis of FAA records and a NASA aviation database — that close-call incidents like these are often the result of human error, such as mistakes made by air traffic controllers who are chronically understaffed.

The recent rise in close call incidents involving commercial airlines is in part due to a widening hole in what's called the "Swiss cheese model," a framework for ensuring safe traveling. Under the model, the idea is that the different factors that go into ensuring planes land safely all have certain weaknesses. Those vulnerabilities could include the weather, a pilot's amount of sleep, wildlife, what the pilot ate for breakfast, or other human error. When you layer enough pieces of holey cheese, and make sure the holes don't line up, it creates a solid layer of security against disaster. In this case, air traffic controllers are a key piece of cheese, making sure that the holes are caught by someone monitoring the situation on the ground.

Except there's not enough air traffic controllers. A government audit released in June found that 77% of critical air traffic control facilities in the US are staffed below the recommended threshold.

The report concluded that the FAA "lacks a plan to address" the shortages, noting that due to training delays caused by COVID-19, the agency cannot ensure it will successfully train enough controllers in the short term.

The shortages aren't due to a lack of interest — the FAA received over 58,000 applicants for 1,500 air traffic controller positions (which pay a median salary of nearly $128,00) last year.

But new hires can't immediately start on the job. Air traffic controllers have to go through rigorous training that can take over three years to complete. In addition, applicants must be younger than 31 years old and are required to retire by age 56.
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And,


Air Traffic Control Facility Staffing

STATEMENT OF

HANK KRAKOWSKI,
CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER,
AIR TRAFFIC ORGANIZATION,
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,

BEFORE THE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION,

HEARING ON

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL FACILITY STAFFING.

JUNE 11, 2008.


Recruitment and Retention

Even though the controller workforce was once again fully staffed, the realities were that, because of the concentrated, post-strike period of hiring, the FAA would have to once again begin a major recruitment effort as these controllers began to age out of the system. The vast numbers of controllers hired in the 1980s were long-predicted to retire once they reached retirement eligibility after 25 years of service.

As you know, the FAA initially developed a 10-year controller workforce staffing plan in 2004. We refine this plan each year. Last year, for example, we developed staffing ranges for each facility. The long-term focus of these ranges is on the CPC, who provides the maximum scheduling flexibility for a facility. As we update and refine our ranges, we will continue to make adjustments based on facility traffic performance. In the interim, many facilities will be in a state of transition as the agency manages through the ongoing retirements and concurrently certifies newly hired controllers.
Click to expand...

And we are approaching another step in that 25 year cycle.

There has been a trend ...

Audit Reports
Date
January 11, 2016
FAA Continues To Face Challenges in Ensuring Enough Fully Trained Controllers at Critical Facilities
Origin
Required by the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2014
Project ID
AV2016014

FAA Continues To Face Challenges in Ensuring Enough Fully Trained Controllers at Critical Facilities | DOT OIG

Ensuring adequate staffing and training for air traffic controllers is essential to maintain the efficiency of the National Airspace System (NAS), especially at the Nation’s most critical air traffic facilities. Our 2012 report found that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) needed to...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov

Ensuring adequate staffing and training for air traffic controllers is essential to maintain the efficiency of the National Airspace System (NAS), especially at the Nation’s most critical air traffic facilities. Our 2012 report found that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) needed to enhance oversight of staffing and training to maintain continuity of air traffic operations at these facilities. We also reported that these facilities were facing a potential shortage of certified professional controllers (CPCs).

Our follow-up review, required by the 2014 Consolidated Appropriations Act, found that FAA’s controller staffing levels at many of its most critical facilities are generally consistent with the Agency’s Controller Workforce Plan (CWP); however, concerns exist about the validity of the staffing plan. Some facilities appear overstaffed, while others have fewer controllers than the CWP states they need. This is partially because FAA’s CWP contains weaknesses in how it determines the number of controllers needed, particularly for en route centers. In addition, FAA has not yet established an effective process for balancing training requirements with pending retirements when managing its controller resources at its critical facilities. FAA relies on historical retirement data to anticipate retirements, but controllers can retire with little notice, leaving an individual critical facility facing an unexpected shortage. Moreover, training outcomes vary widely, and it can take more than 3 years to train a replacement controller for these complex facilities.

We made two recommendations to improve FAA’s ability to ensure adequate staffing at its most critical air traffic control facilities. FAA fully concurred with one recommendation and partially concurred with the other. We consider these recommendations resolved but open until FAA’s planned actions are completed.
Click to expand...
 
southwestforests said:
Oh, I'm in the mood to toss this in to the stream,

Airline collision close calls are on the rise partly because there's not enough people working the high-paid, high-stress job that prevents them
Juliana Kaplan, Hannah Towey, and Taylor Rains
Aug 22, 2023, 2:08 PM CDT

www.businessinsider.com

Airline collision close calls are on the rise partly because there's not enough people working the high-paid, high-stress job that prevents them

An air traffic controller shortage is part of the reason so many planes nearly collide. The job pays well but is also high stress.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com



And,


Air Traffic Control Facility Staffing

STATEMENT OF

HANK KRAKOWSKI,
CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER,
AIR TRAFFIC ORGANIZATION,
FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION,

BEFORE THE

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE,
SUBCOMMITTEE ON AVIATION,

HEARING ON

AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL FACILITY STAFFING.

JUNE 11, 2008.




And we are approaching another step in that 25 year cycle.

There has been a trend ...

Audit Reports
Date
January 11, 2016
FAA Continues To Face Challenges in Ensuring Enough Fully Trained Controllers at Critical Facilities
Origin
Required by the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2014
Project ID
AV2016014

FAA Continues To Face Challenges in Ensuring Enough Fully Trained Controllers at Critical Facilities | DOT OIG

Ensuring adequate staffing and training for air traffic controllers is essential to maintain the efficiency of the National Airspace System (NAS), especially at the Nation’s most critical air traffic facilities. Our 2012 report found that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) needed to...
www.oig.dot.gov www.oig.dot.gov
Click to expand...
Yes, there's not enough of us. Many of us work mandatory 60 hour work weeks because staffing levels are through the floor. What choice do we have? Next to none. It's a thankless job that comes with all of the blame. I'm glad to be leaving the career field, the job itself is a blast but it comes at a heavy toll to our loved ones and it is not worth it. I had a buddy pull 14K AFTER taxes at a level 9 facility with the OT and special pays. Nice money, crap hours, poor life.
 
Quite fitting, I would say, even if directed at general aviation instead of military and commercial aviation,

Into the Night
The January/February 2025 issue of FAA Safety Briefing magazine focuses on general aviation night operations. Feature articles cover what's required for night flight, how to mitigate visual illusions, and pro tips for overcoming your fear of the dark.
Click to expand...


Within that, and while not exactly about the topic's situation, the conversation abouot helicopter flight at night is an interesting coincidence.

medium.com

Taking the Fright Out of Rotorcraft Night Flight

Vertically Speaking: safety issues for rotorcraft pilots
medium.com medium.com

Taking the Fright Out of Rotorcraft Night Flight
FAA Safety Briefing Magazine
Cleared for Takeoff
· 4 min read
· Jan 14, 2025

By Leah Murphy, FAA Safety Team Representative

For helicopter pilots, night flying can present a unique set of challenges with additional risks and threats to safety that must be mitigated. Threats such as reduced visibility, altered depth perception, and diminished spatial awareness all contribute to the complexity of operating at night. To ensure safety, helicopter pilots rely on various techniques such as utilizing celestial illumination, preplanning for off-airport landings, and taking precautions to avoid hazards.
Click to expand...
 
FlyGuy369 said:
the job itself is a blast but it comes at a heavy toll to our loved ones and it is not worth it. I had a buddy pull 14K AFTER taxes at a level 9 facility with the OT and special pays. Nice money, crap hours, poor life.
Click to expand...
I did some testing for the job in the mid-1990s when I was much healthier than now, but my ability to multitask when stressed was inadequate for the job.
 
TomcatViP said:
That we are all aligned, here is the story:

www.yahoo.com

FAA Got Rid of Its Leader Before D.C. Plane Crash—Thanks to Elon Musk

The world’s richest man apparently thought it was a good idea to bully the Federal Aviation Administration chief out of his job.
www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com
Click to expand...
Yes, I'm sure the FAA leader would have, like... Kal-El himself, single-handedly saved the day. And he quit. Elon Musk didn't fire him FFS. He doesn't even have the authority to.

1738294147337.png

My God. Elon is a retarded monster.

EDS is the new TDS.
 
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(AP) NTSB board member Todd Inman says a preliminary report will be released within 30 days​

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That is if there is still a NTSB..................

Regards,
 

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