Waffenträger Wiesel 1 development

[Grey Havoc]

One of Porsche KG's (from 1972 onwards Porsche AG) interesting Cold War military projects.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRb3o5OJsHo

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A look at the Waffenträger Wiesel 1 or the Mobile Weapon Platform Weasel 1. Development background, why it was built in the first place, technical data, driver position, commander position, variants, etc.
English Channel of the Panzermuseum: https://www.youtube.com/c/GermanTankM...
German Channel of the Panzermuseum: https://www.youtube.com/c/DasPanzermu...
Disclaimer I: I was invited by the Deutsche Panzermuseum in 2020.
Disclaimer II: I was invited by the MHM Dresden in 2019.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Some related posts on the the Faun/ZU Kraka, including it's armoured version, from other threads:

In addition to the Mulo Meccanico, the Observer's Military Vehicle Directory (Olyslager organization) mentions a 'covered' version of the KraKa, made in Italy by MV Agusta and named "Diana".

There was a Kraka hard skin prototype, meant to provide fragment protection. It was a failure and the answer was the Wiesel.

It was referred to as the Kraka Terrier. Here you've got some pictures showing it.

Piotr

More Kraka pics and info...

http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_lkw_00-75t_gl_kraka-a.htm
http://www.bmw700.net/index.php?lng_id=en&mnu_id=4&sub_id=38&cnt_pag=1

It's not hard to imagine an up-armored modern incarnation of the Kraka Terrier with lightweight modern sensors and a remote weapon station being quite handy as a scout car.

http://www.bmw700.net/index.php?lng_id=en&mnu_id=4&sub_id=38&cnt_pag=1

In addition: https://www.bmw700.net/faun-kraka

Hi friends,
trying to give some order in my archives I found e potential topic for this forum, related to lesser known light multi-purpose vehicles for Italian armed forces.
The first I found was not secret nor only prototype as it served with several Stormi or Aerobrigate (corresponding to the US Wings) of Aeronautica Militare (italian air force) but I never found it treated in any publication and I found only the two very poor photographs I enclose, snapped during a firing exercise in 1959.
The vehicle was used only by the units equipped with FIAT G.91R light fighter-bombers as the aircraft winner of the NATO requirement NBMR-1 was conceived as a complet weapons and logistic system. This vehicle was a small platform truck similar to the US Willys XM443E1, built in 1959 and remained experimental. The FIAT counterpart was used to carry the machine-gun packs of G.91R (two Colt-Browning .50 each and two packs, i. e. four guns, for every aircraft), 127 mm HVAR unguided air-to-ground rockets, and M64A1 522 lbs/237 kg bombs.
A similar concept (also by FIAT) was shown in 1972, together with several other new vehicles for Esercito Italiano (Italian Army).
The vehicle, similar to the two above mentioned, was called Rifornitore Tattico 4x4 (tactical provider) and then someone said that in case of service would be called CL.72 (Autocarro Leggero 1972) and, as far as I know, never entered in regular service (or, at least, never in numbers of any significance). This small vehicle had a 4-cylinder gasoline engine, rated at 40 HP at 4,600 rpm, five-speed forward and one rear gearbox and a speed from 2 to 70 kmh for a weight of 1,375 kg and a range of 685 km. Doing more in-depth reasearch I found that the vehcile was called FIAT 6615 or Tipo 11 (perhaps X-11?); the body was built by NSU-FIAT in Germany and the engine, on the first prototype, was an experimental FIAT 123 oil-cooled three-cylinder (I never heard of), replaced on the subsequent examples by FIAT 116 (1.3 liters) or 103 (1.1 liters).
Another light vehicle publicly displaied in 1972 was the Piaggo 4x2 Mechanical Mule for paratroops, in the same class of the DAF Pony, Willys M274 Mechanical Mule or the Faun/ZU Kraka (the last type, in fact, was also bought by Italian Army for evaluation by the paratroop brigade and production licence was bought by MV Agusta). The Piaggio model was a 4x2 with a motorcycle 10 HP engine similar to the one of the three-wheeled Ape. The vehicle weighed 325 kg and could be airdropped from C-130H Hercules and CH-47C Chinook; its range speed was 2-36 km/h.
The last vehicle of that class was built by CSEM (the tecnical center of the general office for vehicles and fuels of Italian Army) itself and was a small mechanical mule for mountain troops with an engine rated at 10 HP (3,000 rpm), a 200 kg payload, and a max speed of 8 km/h. That project was subject of an order for 35 productions vehicles.
As information about those vhicles are not easy to find, I hope you enjoy it
Nico

I wouldn't think of it as a real "Jeep", but rather of something like the "Kraka" ("Kraftkarren"/poered cart),which
were developed in the early sixties, but not used by the airborne forces before 1974/75, then already quite
different from the original designs, but still foldable.
(photo from http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_lkw_00-75t_gl_kraka-a.htm, which is recommend for more
photos and reading)

And your link says this about the Kraka:

A lightly armored, two-seat version of the Kraka, which should be equipped with a 20 mm cannon or two anti-tank guided missiles HOT, was introduced in 1972 but not produced in series.

How about a pic of that one?

You want it, you get (via http://www.multi-board.com/board/index.php?page=Thread&postID=474233 ),
but it certainly wasn't foldable, so not the type suitable to be carried by the SIAT-224.
For comparison a photo of the standard Kraka in folded position (from http://up.picr.de/3902044.jpg )

(First two images that Jemiba posted are smaller versions of Kakra Terrier photos already linked in above.)

Neat, thanks! Though this makes it clear that the Kraka was not the vehicle that those pods on the SIAT-224 were intented to carry. The folded shape is all wrong.

Not sure about that ! It may not be aerodynamically very advantageous in this form, but maybe it could be
somewhat covered with a suitable container, which additionally could carry fuel and weapons.

Thank you for pointing to that thread, obviously I hadn't found it by myself, or maybe
just overlooked.
But I still think, that the Kraka is the most probable candidate for the foldable jeep to be
carried by the SIAT-224. The time frame fits and IIRC, when the first really light and easy
transportable ATM came up, there were thoughts in the Bundeswehr about small and highly
mobile teams using them. Could have been a good way for bringing them to "soft spots" on,
or even behind the battle line.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Hi,


here is a drawing to Bolkow Bo.125 in cross section;

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a051589.pdf

The '3.5 - 4 Ton Combat Vehicle' looks like being an early design itineration of the Wiesel.

 

[Grey Havoc]

'

The quad HOT launcher is the same as once shown on a Wiesel prototype as well.

To avoid any confusion, the image above is of a LOHR VPX 5000 prototype.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The most recent attempt at an automatic RCL was the Mauser RMK project of the 1990s, originally intended to arm the German version of the Tiger attack helicopter. This used combustible-cased telescoped ammo (which looked like a simple tube), originally in a revolver cannon which was backwards-loaded (i.e. the ammo feed placed each round in front of its chamber, into which it was pushed backwards). Test firing took place on a land mounting, including on a Wiesel light tracked vehicle.

The initial version was in 30mm calibre but 35mm were also developed. To quote the "Updates to Rapid Fire" page on my website:

Mauser RMK development expanded to include four electrically-powered models, as follows:

RMK 30/2: 30x230 round, 280g at 1,050 m/s (round 44mm diameter, 500g), 4-chamber revolver, 300 rpm, 95 kg weight, 2.2m long (1.7m bbl)

RMK 30/1: 30x280 round, 280g at 1,350 m/s (round 50mm diameter, 655g), 3-chamber revolver, 300 rpm, 125 kg, 3.0m long (2.4m barrel)

RMK 35/1: 35x300 round, 400g at 1,250 m/s (round 50mm diameter, 900g), 3-chamber revolver, 300 rpm, 152 kg, 3.2m long (2.8m barrel)

RMK 35/2: 35x350 round, 430g at 1,480 m/s (round 63mm diameter, 1170g), single rotating chamber, 200 rpm, 280 kg, 3.5m long (2.8m barrel)

One proposal was to mount an RMK 30 on submarines in the Muräne (Moray) project: stored vertically in a waterproof housing at the end of a mast, so it could be elevated above the water at periscope depth. However, all of the RMK series have been shelved for lack of official interest.

EDIT: Via the Top War site;


EDIT2: Via a poster on the War Thunder forums:




Looks like they tested two different installations. I think the more compact installation is from the 1980s.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Via Panzerbaer.de, a couple more images of the 1990s installation:

 

[monochromelody]

Some pics found in Wehrtechnik Magazine

Very early concept of Wiesel, but quite different in weight.

1978 a wiesel prototype on the run


different wiesel prototype through 80's to 1990

first testrig of FlaRakPz Wiesel

first recee wiesel based on wiesel 2 chassis

wiesel in Thailand

wiesel 1 electric drive prototype

wiesel 2 High-Power-Microwave concept

wiesel 2 robotics demonstrator PRIMUS

 

[monochromelody]

Some related posts on the the Faun/ZU Kraka, including it's armoured version, from other threads:

In addition to the Mulo Meccanico, the Observer's Military Vehicle Directory (Olyslager organization) mentions a 'covered' version of the KraKa, made in Italy by MV Agusta and named "Diana".

There was a Kraka hard skin prototype, meant to provide fragment protection. It was a failure and the answer was the Wiesel.

It was referred to as the Kraka Terrier. Here you've got some pictures showing it.

Piotr

More Kraka pics and info...

http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_lkw_00-75t_gl_kraka-a.htm
http://www.bmw700.net/index.php?lng_id=en&mnu_id=4&sub_id=38&cnt_pag=1

It's not hard to imagine an up-armored modern incarnation of the Kraka Terrier with lightweight modern sensors and a remote weapon station being quite handy as a scout car.

http://www.bmw700.net/index.php?lng_id=en&mnu_id=4&sub_id=38&cnt_pag=1

In addition: https://www.bmw700.net/faun-kraka

Hi friends,
trying to give some order in my archives I found e potential topic for this forum, related to lesser known light multi-purpose vehicles for Italian armed forces.
The first I found was not secret nor only prototype as it served with several Stormi or Aerobrigate (corresponding to the US Wings) of Aeronautica Militare (italian air force) but I never found it treated in any publication and I found only the two very poor photographs I enclose, snapped during a firing exercise in 1959.
The vehicle was used only by the units equipped with FIAT G.91R light fighter-bombers as the aircraft winner of the NATO requirement NBMR-1 was conceived as a complet weapons and logistic system. This vehicle was a small platform truck similar to the US Willys XM443E1, built in 1959 and remained experimental. The FIAT counterpart was used to carry the machine-gun packs of G.91R (two Colt-Browning .50 each and two packs, i. e. four guns, for every aircraft), 127 mm HVAR unguided air-to-ground rockets, and M64A1 522 lbs/237 kg bombs.
A similar concept (also by FIAT) was shown in 1972, together with several other new vehicles for Esercito Italiano (Italian Army).
The vehicle, similar to the two above mentioned, was called Rifornitore Tattico 4x4 (tactical provider) and then someone said that in case of service would be called CL.72 (Autocarro Leggero 1972) and, as far as I know, never entered in regular service (or, at least, never in numbers of any significance). This small vehicle had a 4-cylinder gasoline engine, rated at 40 HP at 4,600 rpm, five-speed forward and one rear gearbox and a speed from 2 to 70 kmh for a weight of 1,375 kg and a range of 685 km. Doing more in-depth reasearch I found that the vehcile was called FIAT 6615 or Tipo 11 (perhaps X-11?); the body was built by NSU-FIAT in Germany and the engine, on the first prototype, was an experimental FIAT 123 oil-cooled three-cylinder (I never heard of), replaced on the subsequent examples by FIAT 116 (1.3 liters) or 103 (1.1 liters).
Another light vehicle publicly displaied in 1972 was the Piaggo 4x2 Mechanical Mule for paratroops, in the same class of the DAF Pony, Willys M274 Mechanical Mule or the Faun/ZU Kraka (the last type, in fact, was also bought by Italian Army for evaluation by the paratroop brigade and production licence was bought by MV Agusta). The Piaggio model was a 4x2 with a motorcycle 10 HP engine similar to the one of the three-wheeled Ape. The vehicle weighed 325 kg and could be airdropped from C-130H Hercules and CH-47C Chinook; its range speed was 2-36 km/h.
The last vehicle of that class was built by CSEM (the tecnical center of the general office for vehicles and fuels of Italian Army) itself and was a small mechanical mule for mountain troops with an engine rated at 10 HP (3,000 rpm), a 200 kg payload, and a max speed of 8 km/h. That project was subject of an order for 35 productions vehicles.
As information about those vhicles are not easy to find, I hope you enjoy it
Nico

I wouldn't think of it as a real "Jeep", but rather of something like the "Kraka" ("Kraftkarren"/poered cart),which
were developed in the early sixties, but not used by the airborne forces before 1974/75, then already quite
different from the original designs, but still foldable.
(photo from http://www.panzerbaer.de/helper/bw_lkw_00-75t_gl_kraka-a.htm, which is recommend for more
photos and reading)

And your link says this about the Kraka:

A lightly armored, two-seat version of the Kraka, which should be equipped with a 20 mm cannon or two anti-tank guided missiles HOT, was introduced in 1972 but not produced in series.

How about a pic of that one?

You want it, you get (via http://www.multi-board.com/board/index.php?page=Thread&postID=474233 ),
but it certainly wasn't foldable, so not the type suitable to be carried by the SIAT-224.
For comparison a photo of the standard Kraka in folded position (from http://up.picr.de/3902044.jpg )

(First two images that Jemiba posted are smaller versions of Kakra Terrier photos already linked in above.)

Neat, thanks! Though this makes it clear that the Kraka was not the vehicle that those pods on the SIAT-224 were intented to carry. The folded shape is all wrong.

Not sure about that ! It may not be aerodynamically very advantageous in this form, but maybe it could be
somewhat covered with a suitable container, which additionally could carry fuel and weapons.

Thank you for pointing to that thread, obviously I hadn't found it by myself, or maybe
just overlooked.
But I still think, that the Kraka is the most probable candidate for the foldable jeep to be
carried by the SIAT-224. The time frame fits and IIRC, when the first really light and easy
transportable ATM came up, there were thoughts in the Bundeswehr about small and highly
mobile teams using them. Could have been a good way for bringing them to "soft spots" on,
or even behind the battle line.

Found in IDR, which tells this is not a Terrier, but a Desert Fox.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Re-designation for the export market?

 

[monochromelody]

Re-designation for the export market?

Probably, different sources said that Terrier came up early as 1972, and this Desert Fox came up in 1984.

 

[monochromelody]

Probably the only pic I found that a Wiesel go for airdrop.

 

[Odysseus1980]

Did the airdrop trials of Wiesel were successful? Or the vehicle was damaged when hit in ground?