Vietnam's Kilos

[Grey Havoc]

From the gCaptain website:

Vietnam Announces Submarine Project In Response To Drillship Harassment By China

By gCaptain Staff

June 7th 2011


gCaptain has reported on the growing influence of China’s submarine fleet which includes Ballistic Missile and attack subs… a fact highlighted three years ago to the embarrassment of the US Navy. In a defensive act reportedly aimed at China, Vietnam joined the fray today with the announcement of submarine purchases from Russia.

Vietnam said on Sunday six Kilo class diesel-powered submarines it will purchase from Russia shall be used for self-defence. “We regard this as a normal activity for the People’s Army of Vietnam,” said the Vietnamese Defence Minister at a regional security meeting in Singapore.

“That is to defend (the country) and take part in national construction. Vietnam’s policy is completely for self defence and we would never compromise any other country’s sovereignty. But we must deter anyone who tries to compromise Vietnam’s sovereignty.”

The submarine deal is worth $3.2 billion, according to Russian media, and was signed in 2009. The People’s Army daily, run by Vietnam’s Defence Ministry, said the Defence Minister expressed concern to his Chinese counterpart, Liang Guanglie, at the Singapore meeting about an incident last week in which three Chinese patrol boats challenged a Vietnamese oil exploration ship in the South China Sea. Details on the engagement are scarce but all sides say they are committed to a peaceful resolution of the dispute.


Topic: China · Navy · Offshore News

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http://gcaptain.com/chinese-harass-vietnamese-drillship?26431

 

[JFC Fuller]

This is not a secret project and should be in the military section of the forum.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Nope. They haven't even started construction on any of the subs, so unbuilt project.

 

[JFC Fuller]

But not cancelled. Ongoing procurement programmes do not belong here. From the rules:

The primary purpose of the "Secret Projects" sections of this forum is to document real, but unbuilt, projects. Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate at the descretion of the moderators. Aircraft built in series production should generally be discussed in the "Aerospace" section, warships, tanks and other military vehicles in the Military section.

Kilo is in series production and the Vietnamese ones have not been cancelled.

 

[Grey Havoc]

But not cancelled. Ongoing procurement programmes do not belong here. From the rules:

The primary purpose of the "Secret Projects" sections of this forum is to document real, but unbuilt, projects. Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate at the descretion of the moderators. Aircraft built in series production should generally be discussed in the "Aerospace" section, warships, tanks and other military vehicles in the Military section.

Kilo is in series production and the Vietnamese ones have not been cancelled.

But the fact that no work has begun so far as is known since the contract was signed two years ago, is not a good sign, despite the Vietnamese government waving the deal around this week as proof of their intention not to be locked out in the current land grab. For the moment at least, this topic belongs in Naval Projects.

 

[JFC Fuller]

But the fact that no work has begun so far as is known since the contract was signed two years ago, is not a good sign, despite the Vietnamese government waving the deal around this week as proof of their intention not to be locked out in the current land grab.

So? Still does not belong in this forum.

 

[Grey Havoc]

But the fact that no work has begun so far as is known since the contract was signed two years ago, is not a good sign, despite the Vietnamese government waving the deal around this week as proof of their intention not to be locked out in the current land grab.

So? Still does not belong in this forum.

Unbuilt, possibly effectively cancelled?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Something I missed at the time. A related naval project that may have a bearing on the seriousness of the Kilo order. Via DID:

March 25/10: It’s good to be a good customer. Russian defense minister Anatoly Serdyukov says that Russia will help Vietnam build the submarine base it needs to house its new Kilos, provide a loan to help buy rescue and auxiliary vessels and planes for Vietnam’s navy, and build a ship repair yard. That yard would benefit the Russians, too, as it could service visiting Russian navy ships.

Vietnam’s geographic position could make its service yard attractive to other navies as well, giving other countries even more reason to focus on relations with the Southeast Asian nation. A good service yard could wind up being as important to Vietnam’s geo-political position as the submarines themselves. Associated Press | China’s Xinhua.

Doesn't change the fact however that Vietnam's Kilos are currently an unbuilt naval project. Not to mention the (still notational) sub base that's supposed to support them.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Vietnam-Reportedly-Set-to-Buy-Russian-Kilo-Class-Subs-05396/

 

[JFC Fuller]

Still does not belong in this forum.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Still does not belong in this forum.

We'll agree to disagree, then.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Grey Havoc, this is very, very simple.

A project is a design which is not built.

A prototype is a design which is built, but not put into production.

These are what this forum is primarily concerned with.

What you have here is an order for a submarine design that already exists and has been built in large numbers. This is therefore

1) not a project
2) not a prototype

If it was a whole new custom variant of the Kilo specific to Vietnam, it would belong in Military, until it was cancelled, in which case it would be moved to Naval Projects.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Overscan, I must protest. The Military Forum is for "Discussion about tanks, ships, and other military technologies - not unbuilt projects", which Vietnam's Kilos (and their base) clearly are. Your decision means that any current and future unbuilt Naval projects should go into the Military Forum, am I correct?

 

[Grey Havoc]

Whilst we are at it, can we get some clarification, do ongoing projects have anyplace in the secret projects portion of the forum? My reading of the rules says no, it has to have been proposed and then cancelled/rejected to count- unbuilt simply because an ongoing programme has not reached that stage yet seems to fall outside the scope.

Moderators?

Yes that is correct. Ongoing programs should be in Aerospace or Military as appropriate.

I'll take that as a yes. Very well.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

That is completely correct.

For some reason you seem unable to grasp the central premise of this entire website.

For the last time-

a "project" is a unbuilt design. A design that was drawn, thought about, elements of it tested perhaps, but which never made it to finished hardware.

The Kilo has been built in large quantities. It is a well known design. It is not an unbuilt design. The Vietnamese Kilos subs may or may not be built, but the design of them has been made many times before.

If I plan to buy a Kilo sub, off the shelf, that is not a "project" in the sense it is meant within this forum.

If this is too difficult for you to understand, perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

 

[Grey Havoc]

You're the mod.

 

[Antonio]

I agree with Overscan.

 

[Grey Havoc]

A possibly related update from Defense Industry Daily:

Feb 15/12: Kh-35 partnership. RIA Novosti reports that Vietnam will begin joint production of a modified SS-N-25 Switchblade/ Kh-35 Uran subsonic anti-ship missile, whose base characteristics are similar to the American *GM-84 Harpoon. The project is described as similar to joint Russian-Indian production of the PJ-10 BrahMos missile, which was derived from the supersonic SS-N-26 Yakhont.

The Kh-35 can be launched from Ka-27 naval helicopters, ships, or shore batteries, but hasn’t been integrated with Vietnam’s new SU-30MK model fighters, or its forthcoming Kilo Class submarines. Even so , this joint venture will give Vietnam assured low-cost production and support for an important element of naval deterrence in the South China Sea. The Kh-35 looks set to become Vietnam’s mainstay anti-ship missile for its navy, and a joint project also gives them a base to make changes. India undertook to integrate Brahmos with its Su-30MKI fighters, for example, and Vietnam may have similar plans for their modified Kh-35 project. Then, too, the urge to use locally-built weapons is deep-seated, even though Kilo Class submarines are already configured for 3M54 Klub family (SS-N-27) missiles. Time will tell what the Vietnamese plan to do with this shared technology.

 

[yahya]

Which electronic systems, like radar, sonar, navigation, communication, of Vietnamese Kilos were upgraded in the 21st century?