Vickers Interwar AA Guns

[Regg]

Hello!
At first I wanted to create a separate thread on the issue that interests me, but I decided not to, since it would not be too big.
There is one question concerning the anti-aircraft armament of destroyers created according to British designs for export in the late 20s.
In those years, British firms built destroyers for Chile (Serrano type, Thornycroft, 1927-1929) and Argentina (Mendoza type, S. White & C, 1927-1929) according to their designs. All of them had artillery armament created by one company - Vickers.
According to the information indicated in all reference books, the Chilean destroyers got 76.2-mm (3-in) with a barrel length of 40 calibers, and the Argentine destroyers got 45 calibers! At the same time, these destroyers had the same 120 mm, with a barrel length of 45 calibers.
At the same time (1928), the Vickers company offered Peru its destroyer project. Oddly enough, but this project provided for a 76.2/50 mm anti-aircraft gun! (attached 1)
I assume that it was a gun like this (attached 2). This gun had a barrel length of 50 calibers. Exactly the same installation was installed on the Portuguese avisos of the Afonso de Albuquerque type (Hawthorne Leslie) (attached 3).
How could this happen, and what anti-aircraft guns were on the Serrano and Mendoza types then?
I carefully looked through the photographs and came to the conclusion that the Chilean and Argentine destroyers had exactly the same anti-aircraft guns as the one shown in the picture! Unfortunately, there are practically no good photos of the guns on the Chilean destroyers (attached 4). There are better ones on Mendoza (attached 5). In addition, on the Argentine forum

La artillería antiaérea Argentina

Controlen si el otro DC-3 impactado fue el T-104

www.zona-militar.com

I found confirmation that Mendoza had 50-caliber anti-aircraft guns: “Vickers Armstrong 3”/ L50 (76.2mm) Modelo Mk H27 (CF-SA.76M/M-1928)”.
Then what about the guns of the Chilean destroyers?
Fortunately, these anti-aircraft guns have survived to this day!
These are 76.2 mm anti-aircraft guns: Serrano type (located in the museum on Viña beach), Mendoza type (located in the museum on Martin Garcia Island and in the Tigre museum) and Albuquerque type (museum in Lisbon).
I have combined their modern images into one. I have not signed them, I have only assigned a number. (attached 6)
Can you tell me which of the depicted anti-aircraft guns has a barrel length of 40, 45 and 50 calibers?
For example, I do not see the difference.
Can anyone tell me where to find documents confirming that all the listed destroyers had 76.2/50 mm anti-aircraft guns?
Best regards!

 

[Tzoli]

The Serrano class indeed had 3"/40 calibre gun as to what Mark I do not know, maybe it's the standard British QF Mk II one
The Mendoza class had 3"/45 calibre gun labelled as Vickers Mark SS.
As for the last design you mentioned I do not know I do not have the complete list of guns that Vickers produced or designed

 

[Regg]

The Serrano class indeed had 3"/40 calibre gun as to what Mark I do not know, maybe it's the standard British QF Mk II on

I thought so too at first, but the available photographs of modern times make me doubt it.
What documents are there on this topic?
Jane and Conway do not provide such data.

 

[Regg]

The Mendoza class had 3"/45 calibre gun labelled as Vickers Mark SS.

Do you have a picture of the Modelo SS anti-aircraft gun?
I do. They are completely different guns.
The Modelo SS itself was built in La Carraca. Vickers also made similar guns for Greece (cruiser Averov).

 

[COLDOWN]

Regg, hello.

Argentina: 5 antiaircraft guns were purchased for 5 destroyers (3 for Mendoza-class and 2 for Cervantes-class).
These were Vickers-Armstrong 76.2mm/50cs Mark H Model 1927/8 Quick-Fire Semi-Automatic Anti-Aircraft on Vickers-Armstrong Mark U Model High-Angle mount.

 

[COLDOWN]

Chile: As far I know the 3" chilean guns are 76mm/45cs. I am still researching about them.

The one 3" gun in the Viña del Mar museum is listed as a Latorre battleship antiaircraft gun (later transfered to the O'Higgins cruiser). So it is not a Serrano destroyer gun.

 

[COLDOWN]

Chile-Bis: Regarding the chilean 4.7"/45 there were several models of the same "family" in service. The ones on the Serrano destroyers, the ones on the O'Brien submarines, the ones on Coastal defenses and the ones modified for frigates and other post-wwii ships.

Argentina-Bis: The argentine destroyers (Cervantes-class, Mendoza-class and Buenos Aires-class) also had several 4.7" guns, but not from the same "family".

 

[Regg]

Argentina: 5 antiaircraft guns were purchased for 5 destroyers (3 for Mendoza-class and 2 for Cervantes-class).
These were Vickers-Armstrong 76.2mm/50cs Mark H Model 1927/8 Quick-Fire Semi-Automatic Anti-Aircraft on Vickers-Armstrong Mark U Model High-Angle mount.

Thank you!
This is exactly what I was looking for!
There was practically no doubt that the Argentine destroyers had 50 caliber models. Only documentary confirmation was needed.
Argentina purchased five anti-aircraft guns: three for the Mendoza class and two for the Cervantes class (Churruca class, purchased in Spain without anti-aircraft guns because their production was not established).
Can I know the source of the data?

 

[COLDOWN]

Thank you!
This is exactly what I was looking for!
There was practically no doubt that the Argentine destroyers had 50 caliber models. Only documentary confirmation was needed.
Argentina purchased five anti-aircraft guns: three for the Mendoza class and two for the Cervantes class (Churruca class, purchased in Spain without anti-aircraft guns because their production was not established).
Can I know the source of the data?

Source:

https://imgur.com/nYSTJkj

View: https://imgur.com/nYSTJkj

My memory fails me regarding the Cervantes-class anti-aircraft artillery. I don't remember if both the Spanish 76mm came with faults or if they never really existed and the ones that failed were two 120mm guns.

 

[Regg]

Chile: As far I know the 3" chilean guns are 76mm/45cs. I am still researching about them.

The one 3" gun in the Viña del Mar museum is listed as a Latorre battleship antiaircraft gun (later transfered to the O'Higgins cruiser). So it is not a Serrano destroyer gun.

That's right - there are a lot of inconsistencies here. I also have many doubts about the anti-aircraft mounts of the Chilean destroyers.
The biggest problem is the lack of quality photographs where you can look at the guns.

There are two versions in Chile:
A. Some claim that the guns were previously on the Almirante Latorre (four AA), but then they were transferred to the Serrano class.

B. Others say that the 76.2/50-mm guns manufactured in 1928 were used on six Serrano-class destroyers, one per ship. The same mount, but with a 4-inch barrel, in the amount of four mounts was supplied to the battleship Almirante Latorre.

It seems to me that the second version (version B) is more plausible.

The first version (version A) is opposed by the fact that the battleship arrived in Chile from England in 1920. At that time, the 76.2/50-mm anti-aircraft gun did not yet exist!
At that time, it had exactly two 76.2/45-mm guns. The battleship Almirante Latorre was undergoing repairs in England from 1929 to 1931, which means that it could not "transfer" any guns other than two (!) 76.2/45-mm guns to the destroyers.

Maybe there are high-quality photographs of the Serrano-class destroyers where you can clearly see the anti-aircraft guns?

Think's!

 

[Regg]

Argentina-Bis: The argentine destroyers (Cervantes-class, Mendoza-class and Buenos Aires-class) also had several 4.7" guns, but not from the same "family".

That's right, the Cervantes class destroyers had Spanish 120/45mm Vickers guns, but they were made by La Carraca - Modelo D. They were different in many ways from those installed on the Mendoza class.

 

[Regg]

My memory fails me regarding the Cervantes-class anti-aircraft artillery. I don't remember if both the Spanish 76mm came with faults or if they never really existed and the ones that failed were two 120mm guns.

I haven't figured out this situation yet either. It's unclear: were the anti-aircraft guns not completed on time or were they rejected during inspection as two 120 mm guns.

The two defective 120 mm Vickers La Carraca were replaced with the same ones removed from the Spanish destroyer Sanchez Barcaiztegui.
In addition, by order of Alfonso XIII, Argentina was given a third 120 mm gun as "compensation for moral damage".
As a result, Sanchez Barcaiztegui was in the Armada Española for a long time without three 120/45 mm guns!

I don't see the second document in your message.

 

[COLDOWN]

That's right - there are a lot of inconsistencies here. I also have many doubts about the anti-aircraft mounts of the Chilean destroyers.
The biggest problem is the lack of quality photographs where you can look at the guns.

I agree hard.

There are two versions in Chile:
A. Some claim that the guns were previously on the Almirante Latorre (four AA), but then they were transferred to the Serrano class.

AFIK the Latorre AA had 2 single 3"/45 Armstrong-Elswick Pattern H (similar to the Mark II/IIA) and replaced them by 4 single 4".
The O'Higgins cruiser after modifications received both.

B. Others say that the 76.2/50-mm guns manufactured in 1928 were used on six Serrano-class destroyers, one per ship. The same mount, but with a 4-inch barrel, in the amount of four mounts was supplied to the battleship Almirante Latorre.

Regarding the "same" or "mismo" (spanish), it is just an exaggeration of the author. Both mounts were similar, but not equal, mostly because of the size of the guns. I just checked the pictures (i think there is no need to publish them right now).

The thing here is that we can trust this source (let's simplify as "Histarmar") that says this was the gun and mount in the Viña del Mar museum is from the Serrano-class or we can trust the chilean ("Repositorio Digital") that says this is not from the destroyers and that the museum guns is from the Latorre and O'Higgins.

So did any 76mm of the Serrano survived? I would have to do a traceability of these guns, because they could have been equipped on frigates, corvettes and other ships as well. I just cant find good pictures.

Regards

 

[COLDOWN]

I haven't figured out this situation yet either. It's unclear: were the anti-aircraft guns not completed on time or were they rejected during inspection as two 120 mm guns.

The two defective 120 mm Vickers La Carraca were replaced with the same ones removed from the Spanish destroyer Sanchez Barcaiztegui.
In addition, by order of Alfonso XIII, Argentina was given a third 120 mm gun as "compensation for moral damage".
As a result, Sanchez Barcaiztegui was in the Armada Española for a long time without three 120/45 mm guns!

Do you have a source of this statement? It would help me not to have to search and read this again on my documentation.

The 120mm/45cs in the Argentine Naval Museum is a Vickers-Carraca Model 1929!

//

First and second pictures are the same. Sometimes a link is broken so I publish both alternatives.

 

[Regg]

The 120mm/45cs in the Argentine Naval Museum is a Vickers-Carraca Model 1929!

Yes, I know about this gun in the museum. There are many other guns from Argentine ships there.
The first photo shows two guns: the one on the left belonged to the "Garay" (so I was told on one of the Argentine forums), the one on the right is from the "Mendoza" type.
These are different guns.

And why is this gun (Modelo D) from 1929?
Perhaps this gun was sent to replace the second gun that failed?

I have a photo taken in Argentina (1933) where the "Garay" is missing one gun.

 

[Regg]

Do you have a source of this statement? It would help me not to have to search and read this again on my documentation.

I accidentally read this information on the pages of one of the Spanish newspapers of those years.
I took a screenshot of this page, but unfortunately I can’t find it now.
Perhaps it remained in an old smartphone that broke irreparably.

 

[Regg]

Argentine anti-aircraft gun "Vickers Armstrong 3"/ L50 (76.2 mm) Modelo Mk H27" (in the background, disassembled) at the museum in Tigre (Buenos Aires).

 

[COLDOWN]

Argentine anti-aircraft gun "Vickers Armstrong 3"/ L50 (76.2 mm) Modelo Mk H27" (in the background, disassembled) at the museum in Tigre (Buenos Aires).

Another picture of it

https://imgur.com/h3mAn2V

View: https://imgur.com/h3mAn2V
The empty mount behind it must be of these gun.

I will check the next time i go to the musuem.

 

[Regg]

The empty mount behind it must be of these gun.

Very similar. Most likely the mount belongs to this gun.

 

[Regg]

I will check the next time i go to the musuem.

Thank you very much for the information provided!
I am most interested in two questions:
1. The inscription on the back of this gun. For example, the inscription on the gun located on Martin Garcia (attach 1) is almost illegible.

2. What were the characteristics of this gun?

The weight of the gun and barrel, the weight and speed of the projectile, etc.
I am interested in comparing with the same data of the Spanish gun Model S.S. (attach 2).

 

[COLDOWN]

Thank you very much for the information provided!
I am most interested in two questions:
1. The inscription on the back of this gun. For example, the inscription on the gun located on Martin Garcia (attach 1) is almost illegible.

2. What were the characteristics of this gun?

The weight of the gun and barrel, the weight and speed of the projectile, etc.
I am interested in comparing with the same data of the Spanish gun Model S.S. (attach 2).

I took a sh*t photograph of the gun on the museum.
I will write the requested details next to the spanish illustration.

 

[COLDOWN]

Here,

https://imgur.com/hmWQyQU

View: https://imgur.com/hmWQyQU

or

It was a better presentation in my mind

 

[Regg]

I will write the requested details next to the spanish illustration.

¡Muchas gracias colega!

... Then I have a continuation of the table with characteristics.

 

[COLDOWN]

¡Muchas gracias colega!

... Then I have a continuation of the table with characteristics.

680 mps for AA.
It is not clear to me whether for anti-ship attack the speed increases to 780-850 mps.

I have no more data :/

 

[Regg]

It is not clear to me whether for anti-ship attack the speed increases to 780-850 mps

Thanks again! I think that's enough.
There were probably several types of shells.
I think I'll ask Anthony G. Williams about this.

 

[COLDOWN]

Thanks again! I think that's enough.
There were probably several types of shells.
I think I'll ask Anthony G. Williams about this.

2 shells:
- HE 6.5kg antiaircraft fuze
- STAR 5.5 kg

Let me know if you find something more!

 

[Regg]

Let me know if you find something more!

Okay

 

[Tzoli]

You guys showing us two different sets of datas both for guns so which is which?
Can you clearly write down the characterstiics of the Vickers Mark SS gun? also the Mark H?

Does the Mark SS from 1914 and the Mark H from 1927 or the other way around?

 

[COLDOWN]

You guys showing us two different sets of datas both for guns so which is which?
Can you clearly write down the characterstiics of the Vickers Mark SS gun? also the Mark H?

Does the Mark SS from 1914 and the Mark H from 1927 or the other way around?

The one in spanish and black letter is a spaniard Mark SS (1914).
The one with blue letters is an argentine Mark H (1927) used in the destroyers of the Cervantes-class (Cervantes, Garay) and Mendoza-class (Mendoza, La Rioja and Tucumán).

---

[Offtopic] Many Latin American weapons have incorrect names and technical details in publications. Here two more examples:
- 210mm/35cs Armstrong Pattern A is an argentine gun on the Veinticinco de Mayo cruiser (not the gun of the gunboat Aeger).
- 203mm/40cs Armstrong Pattern T is an argentine gun on the San Martín cruiser (and also the one of the chilean O'Higgins).

 

[Tzoli]

So am I correct here?

3"/45 Vickers Mark SS on Unknown Mounting:
Designer/Manufacturer: Vickers or Vickers-Carraca eg British or British-Spanish?
Design date: 1914
In Service From 1914
Barrel length: 3.429 meters
Overal length: 3,634 meters
Breech: Semi-Automatic Horizontal Breech-Block?
Weight: Barrel: 930kg, Breech-block?: 379kg, Moutning (w/o gun): 812kg, Base: 412kg
Overall weight: 2.953kg
Elevation: -10 - +90°
Traverse: 360°
Projetile weight: 7,7kg (AP?), 6,6Kg (AA/HE?), 5,5kg Starshell
Explosive charge: 1,8kg?
Muzzle velocity 610m/s (AP?), 680m/s (AA/HE?)
Rate of Fire: 16/18rpm
Effective AA range: 4,9km
Maximal horizontal range: 10,2km
Maximal vertical range: 7,2km

3"/50 Vickers Mark H: (On Mark U HA Mounting)
Designer/Manufacturer: Vickers-Armstron (British?)
Design date: 1927/28
In Service From 1929
Barrel length: 4.003 meters
Overal length: 3,81 meters
Breech: Semi-Automatic Horizontal Breech-Block?
Weight: Barrel: 1.181kg, Breech-block?: 559kg, Moutning (w/o gun): 1.600kg, Base: 527kg
Overall weight: 4.180kg
Elevation: -5 - +90°
Traverse: 360°
Projetile weight: 6,5kg (AP? HE? AA?)
Explosive charge: 1,44kg?
Muzzle velocity ???
Rate of Fire: ???
Effective AA range: ???
Maximal horizontal range: ???
Maximal vertical range: ???