Vacuum-powered Propulsive System for Space Travel

Steve Pace

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Wouldn't be cool if someone could invent a propulsive system that used the vacuum of space for an unlimited fuel supply. Just a thought that might actually be possible. -SP
 
I keep wondering if we could harness the hot air output of politicians to make FTL possible.
 
I was imaging something simple like some type of a motor that would suck vacuum in and expell it. Maybe I'm just dreaming. -SP
 
If by vacuum-power, you mean harvesting virtual particles (present in creating the Casimir effect), then you'd require an extremely large volume to capture enough energy to do absolutely anything useful.

And at those scales and power levels, you'd struggle to fight against solar winds, when coming in towards a solar system.

If you could manipulate quantum uncertainty, to create denser fields of virtual particles, you could perhaps get something useful out of it; but the energy cost of such a device would undoubtedly have to be more than the increase, in order to conserve energy.
 
Since the value of the dollar was unpegged from the Fort Knox gold reserve in 1972, the financial world has been extracting energy from the vacuum at a growing high rate.
It's like the San Andreas Fault, everyone expects the GREAT ONE will be within 20 years......
 
Steve Pace said:
sferrin said:
I keep wondering if we could harness the hot air output of politicians to make FTL possible.
FTL?

Faster Than Light. If there is any source out there with the power to defeat Einstein it would be the hot air of politicians.
 
Steve Pace said:
Wouldn't be cool if someone could invent a propulsive system that used the vacuum of space for an unlimited fuel supply. Just a thought that might actually be possible. -SP


To extract energy, you have to have an energy gradient - a even lower ground state for the system to go to. Granted, space has a non-zero energy state. But where do you find an even lower energy state so you can extract the difference?

Think of it this way. Steam engine works not because it has energy, but because it higher energy than its environment, and can can release its own energy into the environement. The reason it can drive a ship or a train is the energy can be captured in the process of being release to the lower energy environement. If you immerse the steam engine in a bath of steam at the same temperature and pressure as the steam inside the steam engine, the steam engine comes to a stop because there is nowhere for the steam to release its energy to.

The vacuum energy engine is immersed in vacuum energy. Energy state everywhere inside and outside the engine is essentially the same. It is like a steam engine immersed in a bath of high pressure steam. There is no energy gradient to exploit. How it is going to extract any energy?


Seems to me like this was born out of a sic fi writer's ignorance of thermal dynamics.
 
chuck4 said:
But where do you find an even lower energy state so you can extract the difference?

Hypothetically, by going to *negative* energy is one option. Take a piece of empty space and extract a yak from it. If you remove a yak from *nothing,* in order for the universe to balance out, you'll need to create a negative yak in the process. So now you have a yak and a negative yak. Use the yak as fuel; chuck the negative yak overboard.

Generally, of course, the idea is to use particles a little smaller than your average yak. And the math suggests that the smaller you go, the more energy there is. If you can pull energy out of the vacuum at the Planck scale, you can power the world with a battery the size of a yam. But you might also reset vacuum to a lower energy state and destroy the entire universe. Just an FYI, don't cross the streams.
 
- Stargate Atlantis "Zero Point Module"
-Asimov "The Gods Themselves"


chuck4 said:
Steve Pace said:
Wouldn't be cool if someone could invent a propulsive system that used the vacuum of space for an unlimited fuel supply. Just a thought that might actually be possible. -SP


To extract energy, you have to have an energy gradient - a even lower ground state for the system to go to. Granted, space has a non-zero energy state. But where do you find an even lower energy state so you can extract the difference?

Think of it this way. Steam engine works not because it has energy, but because it higher energy than its environment, and can can release its own energy into the environement. The reason it can drive a ship or a train is the energy can be captured in the process of being release to the lower energy environement. If you immerse the steam engine in a bath of steam at the same temperature and pressure as the steam inside the steam engine, the steam engine comes to a stop because there is nowhere for the steam to release its energy to.

The vacuum energy engine is immersed in vacuum energy. Energy state everywhere inside and outside the engine is essentially the same. It is like a steam engine immersed in a bath of high pressure steam. There is no energy gradient to exploit. How it is going to extract any energy?


Seems to me like this was born out of a sic fi writer's ignorance of thermal dynamics.
 
One can't help but think a little Bistromathematics is required here. Or failing that, a device working on the principle of infinite inprobability...

Don't worry, I already HAVE my coat ;)
 
reposted link (posted above): http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/vacuum-to-antimatter-rocket-interstellar-explorer-system-varies-an-interstellar-rendezvous-and-return-architecture/


Vacuum to Antimatter-Rocket Interstellar Explorer System (VARIES) An Interstellar Rendezvous and Return Architectureby Richard Obousy
**Article originally written for Discovery Space News by Richard Obousy**
While interstellar mission have been explored in the literature, one mission architecture has not received much attention, namely the interstellar rendezvous and return mission that could be accomplished on timescales comparable with a working scientist’s career.
Such a mission would involve an initial boost phase followed by a coasting phase to the target system. Next would be the deceleration and rendezvous phase, which would be followed by a period of scientific data gathering. Finally, there would be a second boost phase, aimed at returning the spacecraft back to the solar system, and subsequent coasting and deceleration phases upon return to our solar system. Such a mission would represent a precursor to a future manned interstellar mission; which in principle could safely return any astronauts back to Earth.
Interstellar missions have been proposed as a priority for research into (1) the interstellar medium (2) studies of a target star (3) planetary science studies including moons and large asteroids, and (4) astrobiological and exobiological studies of any habitable planets which may exist.
The primary challenges associated with any interstellar mission relate to the distances involved. Voyager 1, launched in 1977, is the furthest manmade object from Earth, and travels at 10.6 miles per second. Even traveling at this incredible speed, it would take just over 70,000 years to reach the closest star to our solar system. Recently, NASA began developing Solar Probe plus, which will study our own sun. Through a series of seven gravitational assists with the planet Venus, the probe will reach the extraordinary speed of 125 miles per second. This is a full seven times faster than Voyager 1, which would allow it to make a trip to another star (if that were its objective) in 6,450 years. While this would still be an incredible accomplishment, no propulsion technology currently in existence has the capability to fly to another solar system on timescales comparable to a human lifetime.

This challenge becomes more apparent if we consider one of the simplest equations that governs spaceflight; the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation. Using this equation we find that to obtain the necessary speeds for an interstellar mission, exhaust speeds within an order of magnitude of the speed of light are necessary, as well as large mass ratio’s and large mass flow rates. Because antimatter offers the highest possible energy density upon annihilating its matter counterpart, it is ideal for interstellar missions. In addition, the reaction occurs spontaneously and so does not require any complex reactor systems or bulky drivers to initiate the reaction.
In-Situ Refueling: The VARIES Concept
One possibility for in-situ refueling that we introduce in this proposal is a quantum effect known as Schwinger pair production. At all energies probed by experiments to date, the universe is accurately described as a set of quantum fields. Each mode of the vacuum behaves like a simple harmonic oscillator, and one quantum mechanical property of these oscillators is that their ground state exhibits fluctuations as a consequence of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The vacuum is thus not devoid of matter or energy as classical physics would have us believe, but is instead a rich arena of quantum activity. Not long after Dirac’s discovery that a relativistic description of electrons required the existence of positrons it was realized by Nobel Prize winning Physicist Julian Schwinger that that a strong enough electric field can create electron-positron pairs out of the vacuum of space itself. For a laser intensity greater than some critical value, pair production is generated via a ‘break-up’ of the vacuum polarization. While the electric field strength necessary to accomplish this is immense, to say the least, recent experimental advances have raised hope that lasers may soon achieve field intensities on the order of this very critical field intensity.
For the VARIES concept, a starship would accelerate to the target solar system and decelerate using it’s onboard supply of fuel. At the target system, the starship would assume a stable orbit close to the systems star. Vast solar panels, hundreds of square kilometers in area would unfurl, and capture energy from the star. This sunlight would be converted into laser energy which would then be used to create antimatter from the vacuum of space via the Schwinger pair production mechanism. Once a sufficient amount of antimatter is created and stored, the VARIES would then be adequately fueled to begin its return trip, presumably back to Earth, where it would then decelerate, allowing future interstellar explorers with a possible way to return to Earth.
One critical and unique component to the VARIES architecture is our proposal that proton-antiproton pair creation can be generated from the vacuum, given a sufficiently powerful electric field. Spontaneous particle creation from the vacuum by an external electric field has been applied to numerous problems in contemporary particle physics, including black hole quantum evaporation and electron-positron creation in the vicinity of charged black holes.
While this research is at a very early stage in its development, a peer reviewed article was recently published outlining the physics of the idea.
Obousy, R.K., “Vacuum to Antimatter Rocket Interstellar Explorer System“, JBIS 64 No.11/12 pp 378-386 (2011).
 
Orionblamblam said:
chuck4 said:
But where do you find an even lower energy state so you can extract the difference?

Hypothetically, by going to *negative* energy is one option. Take a piece of empty space and extract a yak from it. If you remove a yak from *nothing,* in order for the universe to balance out, you'll need to create a negative yak in the process. So now you have a yak and a negative yak. Use the yak as fuel; chuck the negative yak overboard.

Generally, of course, the idea is to use particles a little smaller than your average yak. And the math suggests that the smaller you go, the more energy there is. If you can pull energy out of the vacuum at the Planck scale, you can power the world with a battery the size of a yam. But you might also reset vacuum to a lower energy state and destroy the entire universe. Just an FYI, don't cross the streams.


The trick is quantum effects are a matter of probability. Your can't predict where a specific event, like a point in space gaining negative energy, is going to happen. But you know that over any significant sized region, say 1 micron across, these random events will statistically overwhelmingly likely to randomly cancel each other out, so the space appear on that scale to be smooth with uniform base state energy. So for every point going negative, there would be another point cancelling it out extremely close to it. To exploit the quantum energy, you would need an amazing, incredibly precise and instantaneously responsive engine. It would have to spot at Planck length level the individual quantum events, somehow immediately zero in on a negative energy event and discard positive energy events.


This would be like a steam engine that doesn't actually use cylinder full of steam molecules with high average random molecular kenetic energy , but instead have incredibly precisely and responsive artificial intelligence that checks the steam molecules one by one, and grab the higher kenetic energy molecules while discarding the lower energy ones.

This beings up a couple of questions I think are valid but which I certainly can't answer. 1. Does a machine of this precision and responsiveness violate the uncertainty principle and is therefore even in principle impossible to achieve. 2. Even if it is in principle possible to achieve, does quantum mechanics put some lower limit on how much energy must be expanded to achieve it, so that the machine might, even in principle, have to use more energy than it can generate.

Not saying it can't be done, just pointing out how much overhead such a device may have to have, and the possibility that uncertainty principle may really mess things up.
 
Well, as there is no true vacuum in this universe how about the simpler option: the interstellar ramjet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet
 
Firefly 2 said:
Well, as there is no true vacuum in this universe how about the simpler option: the interstellar ramjet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

Sadly, no. The concept would, after a few decades reflection, seem to work well as a *brake* against the interstellar medium, and perhaps as a means to collect hydrogen or protons for storage, but the original idea of having it serve as an inlet is, AIUI, essentially impossible... there's no magnetic field configuration possible where the captured protons slide right into a high-pressure fusion engine without slowing to a virtual stop WRT the ship. Thus at best it produces more drag than thrust.

If you are already at interstellar velocity and want to stop, the Bussard system would be handy. The magnetic field drags against the interstellar hydrogen, slowing the ship down without expending propellant; and it can collect propellant for later use in a fusion/ antimatter engine.
 

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