USN F-84G?

[Steve Pace]

Found at flickr by yahoo - aeroman3's photostream.

Steve Pace

 

[archipeppe]

OH!

 

[Stargazer]

OMIGOD!!!

Brilliant !!!

And what color was that painted, anyway? Navy blue? Amazing, I'd never seen that one before. Is this a fake? Some details (like the serial number's slightly irregular lettering) seem to indicate this, and the fact you posted it in the "Bar" section... But if it is, it's very well done.

 

[Steve Pace]

OMIGOD!!!

Brilliant !!!

And what color was that painted, anyway? Navy blue? Amazing, I'd never seen that one before. Is this a fake? Some details (like the serial number's slightly irregular lettering) seem to indicate this, and the fact you posted it in the "Bar" section... But if it is, it's very well done.

As far as I know it's real and looks like Navy blue. Check the flickr site I mentioned.

 

[Justo Miranda]

F-84KX
F-84B, US Navy target drone conversions.
Assigned BuNo. 142269 / 142348.

The final straight-winged Thunderjet served as conversion target drones for the United States Navy. Falling under the designation of F-84KX, at least 80 F-84B models were used as such.

 

[Stargazer]

Hence my impression that it might be reddish and not blue (it didn't QUITE look navy blue). I think that's what it was.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

It's probably painted insignia red.

 

[Stargazer]

This photograph and the superb airplane it depicts inspired me to attempt a colorized version. I'm open to any suggestions/criticism so as to improve it.

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion...
Blue fuselaje ...Chrome yellow wings and tailsurfaces
Natural metal air intake and nozzle

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

My opinion...
Blue fuselage ...Chrome yellow wings and tail surfaces
Natural metal air intake and nozzle

The paint scheme you're describing is similar to that of a drone controller, which also had prominent red stripes on the wing and red on the rudder/vertical fin, not a drone which was probably overall insignia red and definitely not blue and yellow. Going back to the original website and down loading the largest image available, you'll see that the designation for this aircraft includes a K for drone and not a D for drone controller. (Admittedly, that's a little confusing.)

You'll also note that the full designation is "F84-GKX". This is unusual in that the normal practice (assuming that they accepted an Air Force designation, which is possible since there was some movement in the Navy around that time toward using Air Force designation system when acquiring non-tactical aircraft from the junior service) would have been to mark it F-84GK or XF-84GK. Note the different location of the dash and the X. It's almost like whoever marked it was unfamiliar with either designation system. The Navy tended to not use X much, and they rarely used Y, but it was not unknown. Since this was the second BuNo of the lot, X may have seemed appropriate but in the Air Force and the Navy, it always (?) preceded the designation.

The real question is, where and when it was operated, assuming that this is not a Photoshop job? I've not only never seen a Navy F-84 before, I've never heard of it. I doubt that there were actually 80 converted and operated (Baugher does include the BuNos in his listing, but that's not proof that many were produced.) Point Mugu and China Lake are the two most likely candidates but the activity at both places is fairly well documented and there's not a red F-84 in sight. However, it's possible that it was an east coast operation, maybe even likely if Republic was directly involved, for which there is less material available since they were shut down long ago.

Presumably the F-84Bs were available as cannon fodder when the Ds became available to replace them. According to The American Fighter, the last B was delivered in February 1948. It is reported on the interweb that all Bs were withdrawn by 1952.

 

[aim9xray]

Very, very interesting! After staring at the high-res version of the photo for a while, I have convinced myself that the painted designation is F84-CKX. The basic airframe is a very early model F-84 (judging by the pitot on the vertical stabilizer (relocated to the inlet splitter in the F-84E and subsequent) aircraft). The F-84G-type reinforced canopy was retrofitted to surviving early F-84s. So, at this point, I'd take the "F84-C" at face value. As far as the "K" and "X" suffixes are concerned, they are explained by this excerpt from the September 1956 issuance of the "Allowances and Locations of Navy Aircraft".

"Further as to CLASS, aircraft are characterized as to VERSION of basic design by letter designation (as the N in F6F-5N) as follows:
A - Amphibious,
B - Special Armament,
C - Carrier Operating,
D - Drone Control,
E - Special Electronics,
K - Target Drone,
L - Winterized,
M - Guided Missile Carrier,
N - All Weather Operating,
N(A) - All Weather version stripped for day attack,
P - Photographic,
Q - Countermeasures,
R - Transport,
S - Submarine search and attack,
T - Training,
U - Utility,
W - Airborne Early Warning,
Z - Administrative.

The suffix letter "X" is used to denote that a conversion to that model has not been completed. Upon completion of the conversion, the suffix letter "X" is dropped." Of course, this does not explain the F3D-2T2 (oh well!).

Judging from the designation and details in the photo, I'll throw out the following theory...

The subject is a F-84C. The designation reveals that the drone conversion is not complete and that observation is supported by the lack of remote control radio antennas and RF/optical scoring equipment. The mangled designation may indicate the the overhaul, update and painting of the aircraft was performed by either an Air Force Depot or contractor prior to transfer to the Navy. That would make sense because neither the F-84 aircraft nor the J35 engine were in the Navy logistics system in the mid fifties.

The BuNo looks to have been issued around 1955 or 56, judging by the preceding and succeeding serials (F4H-1, A3D and F5D).

My guess is that the Navy determined that there would be a need for a high speed target for test and evaluation of the emerging generation of Sparrow-equipped interceptors (F4H-1, F5D-1, and F8U-3). With no excess Navy jet fighters available the Navy planned to acquire a number of excess Air Force F-84s. The aircraft were allocated and several were transferred to the Navy. At some point, plans changed and F9F-6 aircraft became excess to Fleet and Reserve needs; were available for drone conversion and the F-84 effort was abandoned.

In retrospect, the F9F-6 made a better drone, with swept wing performance and much easier O&M (operations and maintenance) concerns.

Well, that's my reasoning and theory... any thoughts?

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

Craig - Excellent work on your part, sloppy work on mine. I'm guilty of speculation without adequate thought and research. I agree with the C in the designation rather than G. I looked at the picture again on a better monitor and it does look more like a C. Since the only straight-wing F-84 designation that I'm familiar with is the G, I'm sure that I saw a G where there wasn't one. Cs were also surplus, again according to the interweb. The X-suffix is an excellent catch as is looking at the BuNos in context. Well done.

I will note that Panthers were also converted to drones, which leads me to wonder why the Navy would bother using the F-84 even before Cougars were available, other than the silly thought that shooting down an Air Force airplane had some attraction. Perhaps the Navy thought that they might run out of Panthers or didn't want to use them for this purpose at the time.

I have seen a message to aeroman3, asking where he got the photograph in hopes that might shed some light on the location of the aircraft at the time.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Several samples
Post-1

 

[Justo Miranda]

Several samples
Post-2

 

[EEP1A]

Found a description regarding Navy F-84 on “The Ships and Aircraft of the U. S. Fleet” eighth edition by James C. Fahey. (US Naval Institute 1965)

“F-84/KX , transferred FY1956, number converted 4, note: F-84B-RE target drones, expended”

The difference between F-84B and F-84C is mainly engine (from J-35-A-15 to A-13) and electrical system, so externally almost alike.
If the Navy F-84s were converted from F-84B instead of “C”, The “C” in the designation F-84-CKX may indicate “carrier operation”.
I have seen a photo carrying numerous Air Force F-84Es on board an Escort Carrier’s deck at the Korean War just for transportation, but I am not sure if F-84B can take off from an aircraft carrier using catapult. (Landing may not be necessary because it is expended.)

 

[Stargazer]

I must say that four examples sounds a lot more plausible than 80! And yet most sources on the subject quote that questionable amount... I find it hard to believe that only one picture could have survived of an aircraft used in such quantities (even if it was a target...).

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

I've done some more research on the drone color schemes. Blue/yellow was almost never used on a drone: shooting at the blue (or engine gray)/yellow airplane with red highlights instead of what it was towing or controlling was a really big no-no. That's the reason for the distinctive scheme. Shooting at the red/orange airplane was okay if you were supposed to be shooting at something. (It was also a warning in the event of a chance encounter with a red/orange airplane that it might not be occupied by a pilot and if so, collision avoidance was one-sided.)

In other words, the color scheme on these airplanes was almost always in accordance with its mission/use, not the squadron it was in or even its designation. The caption of the illustration of Fury 135867 that Justo included above is incorrect-it was not a drone. The Hellcat 15UA above may have been a drone conversion (tall tailwheel) but it was not being used as such. Note also that all the blue/yellow airplanes in the illustrations that Justo provided have red bands on the wings and red on the vertical fin and/or rudder.

One exception to the red and/or orange scheme for drones were F9F-2/5KDs that were reportedly used both as drones and drone controllers, one of which, 35ZZ, is included in Justo's posts. At least some if not all of these were painted like controllers in accordance with the D suffix and use. At least some were not operated as true drones, in that they had to be taken off and landed by an on-board pilot, and were only used to train drone controllers. The F9F-2/5KDs may also have only been used as drones in very tightly controlled air-to-air missile exercises so the color scheme was not important.

I agree that the wing and tail surfaces in the picture look a bit lighter than the fuselage, but understanding the pitfalls of trying to interpret a gray-scale photo, please note that the bar in the national insignias, which is likely the same shade of red in both cases, looks lighter on the wing and darker on the fuselage and in each case is also very close in tone to the surface that it is on. It may be that the vertical fin and rudder are not red, but orange is far more likely than yellow. The fuselage doesn't appear to be dark enough to be blue or even engine gray, the later fuselage color used for drone controllers and tow target aircraft. The lack of red stripes on the wings suggests that the wings are probably not yellow, although some of the F9F-2/5KDs did not appear to have red stripes on the wings or red on the vertical fin/rudder either. The lack of a D suffix is another indicator that it would not be painted like a drone controller.

My conclusion is that the F-84 pictured is likely, but not for certain, overall insignia red.

 

[Tailspin Turtle]

The website owner, Aeroman3, has responded that this was the only photo of this particular F-84 that he had and that there was no information on the back of it.