USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

[Scott Kenny]

You gotta remember the things going to have 90k lbs of thrust, does it make sense to have > 1:1 TWR at MTOW? The weapons bays and huge fuel tanks add lots of weight.

For certain missions it does. Scramble interceptors, for example.

But no, otherwise there's no great reason to have greater than 1:1 thrust:weight at MTOW. You want to have >1:1TWR at about 50% fuel load for a fighter doing a there-and-back.


Let's see here. The F-22 is the same rough size as the F-15 (length x wingspan), but the internal bays and larger internal fuel tanks add 17klbs of empty weight (1.55x heavier empty). Su-27 is 8000lbs heavier than the F-15 is empty (1.29x heavier), but has the same MTOW with a larger internal fuel capacity (lower total armament load), it's also 7000lbs lighter than the F-22 is empty. Interestingly, the Su-57 is about 4000lbs lighter than the F-22 is empty (greater composite %?).

Applying that excessively simple 1.55x heavier empty multiplier to a Su-27, I'm expecting the USAF bird to be some 56klbs empty (barring using a lot more composites than the F-22 did), with a MTOW in the neighborhood of 100-110klbs.

But the USN bird will not exceed about 85klbs MTOW, as I believe that is about the limit of the catapults. The USN bird will also need to stay lighter, as I believe the arresting gear weight limit is right around 65klbs.

I do not see the USAF and USN sharing much more than engines between the two designs.

 

[aonestudio]

The Weekly Debrief: Why Northrop Grumman Is In On U.S. Navy’s NGAD | Aviation Week Network

The company is providing development work for F/A-XX.

aviationweek.com

 

[Scott Kenny]

The Weekly Debrief: Why Northrop Grumman Is In On U.S. Navy’s NGAD | Aviation Week Network

The company is providing development work for F/A-XX.

aviationweek.com

Subscription required, even when doing the Private Window trick.

 

[jsport]

Episode 147 — No Bucks, No Buck Rogers: Leadership Conversation with Lt Gen Rick Moore - Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies Podcasts

In Episode 147 of the Aerospace Advantage, No Bucks, No Buck Rogers: Leadership Conversation with Lt Gen Rick Moore, Mitchell’s Maj Gen Larry Stutzriem, USAF (Ret.) explores the fiscal realities facing the USAF. As the Deputy Chief of Staff for Plans and Programs at Headquarters Air Force, Lt...

mitchellaerospacepower.org

 

[jsport]

Future fighter program poses key test for US Air Force’s design method

In recent years, the advanced digital engineering techniques the service once thought would be revolutionary have not always panned out.

www.defensenews.com

 

[jsport]

https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/05/08/the_right_fighter_mix_the_commanders_perspective_898017.html

 

[bobbymike]

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zwdlXJ4_MzM

 

[jsport]

Air Force Test Enterprise Gears Up for the Challenge of CCAs

Testing Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCAs) will require more integration than any previous effort, Air Force test leaders said.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Skunknotworks]

New 445th Test Squadron Patch don't know if its legit, but nonetheless a cool patch showcasing Concept NGAD.

 

[Desertfox]

It probably is, all the other aircraft are legit. Could just be the concept demonstrator and not the final product.

 

[TomcatViP]

Notice the distributed things (exhausts) on B-21 trailing edge.

 

[FighterJock]

Interesting designs for the exhausts for the B-21 TomcatVIP, that is if what the exhausts eventually will look like.

 

[Scott Kenny]

View attachment 710384


New 445th Test Squadron Patch don't know if its legit, but nonetheless a cool patch showcasing Concept NGAD.

I expect that's about as representative of the overall shape of at least one NGAD as the YF22 was to the F-22.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Interesting designs for the exhausts for the B-21 TomcatVIP, that is if what the exhausts eventually will look like.

I wouldn't put much to that detail, it's obviously not an embroidery artifact but it's also an embroidery item. May just be trying to represent some shape via color change.

 

[TomcatViP]

@Scott Kenny : What do you mean? US Taxpayers dollars flowing (raining?) out?

 

[Scott Kenny]

@Scott Kenny : What do you mean? US Taxpayers dollars flowing (raining?) out?

That it's a detail they wanted to show on patch, but it may not have anything to do with the exhausts.

 

[martinbayer]

Apparently it's legit: https://theaviationist.com/2023/10/23/445th-test-squadron-patch/

 

[bobbymike]

I’m too lazy to go back through the whole thread nor do I want to reignite the “a demonstrator already flew” debate but does anyone want give informed speculation on when we might see one?

Soon after the B-21 takes flight would put a bit of stress on our adversaries.

 

[Moose]

I’m too lazy to go back through the whole thread nor do I want to reignite the “a demonstrator already flew” debate but does anyone want give informed speculation on when we might see one?

Soon after the B-21 takes flight would put a bit of stress on our adversaries.

USAF is planning a major award in '24, we'll see something.

 

[Skunknotworks]

https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1720234849338896713?s=20

 

[Scott Kenny]

USAF is planning a major award in '24, we'll see something.

Unless the various companies have been doing a lot of work on their own dime, the USAF NGAD contest is looking a lot like the F-15 contest: paper studies and maybe a few mockups, then contract award to the winner. No fly-off phase like the ATF or JSF.

 

[Moose]

https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1720234849338896713?s=20 View attachment 710818

Their ATF and JSF concepts were generally not in the bleeding-edge and both resulted in wins, I'm not counting out LM until there's been an award (and appeal). That said, good to hear Boeing is being bold and it would be great if they were to win by shooting for the moon and hitting it.

 

[Skunknotworks]

Their ATF and JSF concepts were generally not in the bleeding-edge and both resulted in wins, I'm not counting out LM until there's been an award (and appeal). That said, good to hear Boeing is being bold and it would be great if they were to win by shooting for the moon and hitting it.

Exactly My take on it, I think ultimately we cant count either company out, but Lockheed should come out on top but thats my opinion.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Their ATF and JSF concepts were generally not in the bleeding-edge and both resulted in wins, I'm not counting out LM until there's been an award (and appeal). That said, good to hear Boeing is being bold and it would be great if they were to win by shooting for the moon and hitting it.

I'm kinda expecting LockMart to win the USAF NGAD, Boeing the USN FAXX, and Northrop to be eyeballs deep in B21.

 

[Black Dog]

Unless the various companies have been doing a lot of work on their own dime, the USAF NGAD contest is looking a lot like the F-15 contest: paper studies and maybe a few mockups, then contract award to the winner. No fly-off phase like the ATF or JSF.

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet

Does this give the Next Generation Air Dominance program more momentum, or does it open it up to more scrutiny?

www.defensenews.com

At least one full scale prototype was built. However, hard to imagine only one team building a full scale protoype and the other(s) not. This could be why NG pulled out. Realistically already having the B-21 was putting them on the backfoot, with how these sort of contracts are awarded.

 

[djfawcett]

https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1720234849338896713?s=20 View attachment 710818

Here is the evolutionary approach:

 

[quellish]

with a 0.2 m2 RCS

 

[flateric]

Defense & Aerospace Air Power Podcast [Nov 02, 23] Ep40: Ask Dr. Science - Defense & Aerospace Report

Whether high-end fighters, swarming drones, or hypersonic weapons, former Director of Defense Research and Engineering and former Air Force chief scientist Dr. Mark Lewis has been deep in the details. He joins us to look at how to turn the latest technologies into successful programs. And NGAD...

defaeroreport.com

 

[Rhinocrates]

Their ATF and JSF concepts were generally not in the bleeding-edge and both resulted in wins, I'm not counting out LM until there's been an award (and appeal). That said, good to hear Boeing is being bold and it would be great if they were to win by shooting for the moon and hitting it.

Yeah. The final judgement by the USAF will take into account confidence in the ability of the contractor to deliver. Boeing's had some wins but also a lot of bad press lately.

 

[Scott Kenny]

There is only one problem, new engines of this dimension are not planned

The differences between the land and sea versions of the fighter are in the minimum landing speed. Therefore, the land one is tailless with a 0.2 m2 RCS, and the sea one is a normal aerodynamic scheme with a stabilizer and therefore somewhat more noticeable. This is at least

Isn't that a rather huge RCS by F22 and F35 standards? 0.2m^2 is a square 44.7cm on a side.

 

[paralay]

Isn't that a rather huge RCS by F22 and F35 standards? 0.2m^2 is a square 44.7cm on a side.

F-22 - 0,3 m2
F-35 - 0.4 m2
0.2 m2 is the level of an inconspicuous cruise missile, a very good result for a fighter weighing more than forty tons

 

[quellish]

F-22 - 0,3 m2
F-35 - 0.4 m2
0.2 m2 is the level of an inconspicuous cruise missile, a very good result for a fighter weighing more than forty tons

Those eagles have BIG eyeballs

 

[Uuuuiiiuu]

F-22 - 0,3 m2
F-35 - 0.4 m2
0.2 m2 is the level of an inconspicuous cruise missile, a very good result for a fighter weighing more than forty tons

This is not how radar cross sections work….

 

[paralay]

This is how the best air defense system in the world works. According to Russian scientists, a RSC below 0.3 m2 is not achievable for fifth-generation fighters, due to technical features

ЭОП - эффективная отражающая поверхность / effective reflective surface (RCS)

 

[MihoshiK]

This is how the best air defense system in the world works. According to Russian scientists, a RSC below 0.3 m2 is not achievable for fifth-generation fighters, due to technical features

ЭОП - эффективная отражающая поверхность / effective reflective surface (RCS)

Wait. Russian scientists have access to Patriot data? Did they include all of the data from the great Kyiv turkey shoot in the beginning of this year?

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Must admit I am still very skeptical of the tailless designs for a supersonic fighter aircraft but time will tell if that's the right direction.

 

[what_is_that]

Must admit I am still very skeptical of the tailless designs for a supersonic fighter aircraft but time will tell if that's the right direction.

Looking at the good results that came out of the X-36 program, I wonder if the demonstrator that was reportedly flown for NGAD was tasked with transonic and supersonic control validation of the tailless design.

 

[Black Dog]

Defense & Aerospace Air Power Podcast [Nov 02, 23] Ep40: Ask Dr. Science - Defense & Aerospace Report

Whether high-end fighters, swarming drones, or hypersonic weapons, former Director of Defense Research and Engineering and former Air Force chief scientist Dr. Mark Lewis has been deep in the details. He joins us to look at how to turn the latest technologies into successful programs. And NGAD...

defaeroreport.com

10:05

Much more capable recon aircraft than U2 has been delivered to AF from Skunk Works

 

[sferrin]

This is how the best air defense system in the world works. According to Russian scientists, a RSC below 0.3 m2 is not achievable for fifth-generation fighters, due to technical features

ЭОП - эффективная отражающая поверхность / effective reflective surface (RCS)

 

[bring_it_on]

Unless the various companies have been doing a lot of work on their own dime, the USAF NGAD contest is looking a lot like the F-15 contest: paper studies and maybe a few mockups, then contract award to the winner. No fly-off phase like the ATF or JSF.

We have reporting claiming that all three original OEM's built and flew demonstrators so the AF did indeed evaluate things along the way.