USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

The Russians will have a larger plane

Of course they will...
A larger but less functional plane that's gonna spend 99% of its life on the tarmac, that is.

But I do agree on the size thing, the Tu-128 remains uncontested as the largest fighter/interceptor aircraft in history. If any aircraft was to exceed it in size, it's likely the NGAD, but it would be more likely that the planes that exceed it will be far future space-capable planes that need a lot of space for longtime space travel or whatnot.
Do you have any concrete knowledge of or insights regarding any official NGAD, let alone any potential post NGAD "space-capable planes" requirements, because your statement above suspiciously looks a lot like speculation/wishful thinking to me? I am also really confused about what you mean when you state that far future space-capable planes will need a lot of space for longtime space travel or whatnot, because as an aerospace engineer I always thought that the very point of any ideal future efficient space travel, whether by space-capable planes (L. Ron Hubbard's DC-8 lookalike fictional Xenu spacecraft of Scientology fame comes readily to mind) or any other means, *was* to traverse a lot of space, and based on my fundamental understanding of cosmology, outer space is not a limited or exhaustible resource in any practical sense. Also, a quick online search for "La-Fuente Technologies" led me to https://www.lafuentemojacar.com/es/libro/technologies-i-project-ingenia_1134005057 - as an essentially German/English speaker I am curious whether this is your website, and if so, what it is all about?
I thought I made a few posts earlier stating that it's just speculation or theory? I'm not exactly saying that it's concrete or real information, because just like you, I also don't know much about what the NGAD's truly capable of, so I just speculate and hope for something a bit bigger. Either way, it's just speculation, no proof in that whatsoever, and I'm all ears for any other ideas that can be discussed regarding the NGAD or any other upcoming piece of military tech, really.

And so until we get actual concrete and fully verifiable information regarding the NGAD, like fully final details regarding it that have little chance of refuting, almost everything we talk about regarding the NGAD, however concrete or wild, is just speculation or theory. No need to be too harsh on this.

Secondly, I also discussed about Spaceplanes because it may be the future of aircraft altogether, maybe not in a few decades or a century, but it's still inevitable, as a form of travel which can start at the terrestrial level, but is capable of going out to space, move around in it and whatnot. Like some other stuff I think of, it's a wild theory, I suppose too wild, but I think they may be possible at some point. Just like always however, it's open to speculation, and I think it's fine to at least open that theory up if we don't have all the info yet.

Also finally, I have nothing to do with that website whatsoever, first I've heard of it actually. "Lafuente" is my surname, and that's it. Not like I would actually go all out and make some website like that, because although I do have some weird conspiracy theories of my own, especially with regards to what the US Government and US Military is NOT showing us because of any reasons, I'm not that insane to actually think that what I know is true and evident. I THINK they have something hidden, for good reason, but as to what it is, we may never know until it comes out. I just think of the countless possibilities as to what they could be, and then go on from there.

Going back on it, I really should be making a disclaimer next time I make any speculation or theory regarding future technology, lest something like this happens again, and I get accused of talking as if I know or claim to know some things, wherein fact, I'm just speculating and theorizing out there.

And for the record, I'm Filipino, not wherever that owner of that website came from. Seems like he came from any Hispanic Country, I know that it's not in the Philippines.
 
It's not a competition in size. The new aircraft should be more functional than the previous one, the first thing that is done in this direction is to increase it in size. USA replaces F/A-18E/F and F-22. Both aircraft are maneuverable, one of them is based on the deck of the ship. Accordingly, the thrust-to-weight ratio should be greater, and the thrust of the engines is known to us. The dimensions cannot exceed the capabilities of a ship's lift
The Russian Air Force does not need a carrier-based aircraft of this size. Instead, an interceptor with a range comparable to or exceeding the range of enemy cruise missiles is needed. The PAK DP will replace the MiG-31, Su-34 and Tu-22M3. The engines of the izd.30 allow you to create an aircraft with a maximum take-off weight of more than 60 tons and the corresponding capabilities
 

Attachments

  • PAK_DP & NGAD.JPG
    PAK_DP & NGAD.JPG
    500.7 KB · Views: 114
Last edited:
The Russians will have a larger plane

Of course they will...
A larger but less functional plane that's gonna spend 99% of its life on the tarmac, that is.

But I do agree on the size thing, the Tu-128 remains uncontested as the largest fighter/interceptor aircraft in history. If any aircraft was to exceed it in size, it's likely the NGAD, but it would be more likely that the planes that exceed it will be far future space-capable planes that need a lot of space for longtime space travel or whatnot.
YF-12A was bigger. YF-12A, F-111, and MiG-31 all heavier.
 
The Russians will have a larger plane

Of course they will...
A larger but less functional plane that's gonna spend 99% of its life on the tarmac, that is.

But I do agree on the size thing, the Tu-128 remains uncontested as the largest fighter/interceptor aircraft in history. If any aircraft was to exceed it in size, it's likely the NGAD, but it would be more likely that the planes that exceed it will be far future space-capable planes that need a lot of space for longtime space travel or whatnot.
YF-12A was bigger. YF-12A, F-111, and MiG-31 all heavier.
Ohhh yeah, forgot about that particular member of the Blackbird Family. Unfortunately it was a prototype, and was never fully realized as a proper interceptor and fighter, unlike the Tu-128. As such, the Tu-128 is still the largest fighter, production model-wise.
 
The Russians will have a larger plane

Of course they will...
A larger but less functional plane that's gonna spend 99% of its life on the tarmac, that is.

But I do agree on the size thing, the Tu-128 remains uncontested as the largest fighter/interceptor aircraft in history. If any aircraft was to exceed it in size, it's likely the NGAD, but it would be more likely that the planes that exceed it will be far future space-capable planes that need a lot of space for longtime space travel or whatnot.
YF-12A was bigger. YF-12A, F-111, and MiG-31 all heavier.
Ohhh yeah, forgot about that particular member of the Blackbird Family. Unfortunately it was a prototype, and was never fully realized as a proper interceptor and fighter, unlike the Tu-128. As such, the Tu-128 is still the largest fighter, production model-wise.
Interceptors aren't fighters in full sense.
Especially those large area defense ones, which basically can't do a good half of fighter missions properly.
 
Interceptors aren't fighters in full sense.
Especially those large area defense ones, which basically can't do a good half of fighter missions properly.
Yeah, I forgot that one too. Some can do both roles, such would be called fighter-interceptors, but the rest, not so much.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's not a competition in size. The new aircraft should be more functional than the previous one, the first thing that is done in this direction is to increase it in size. USA replaces F/A-18E/F and F-22. Both aircraft are maneuverable, one of them is based on the deck of the ship. Accordingly, the thrust-to-weight ratio should be greater, and the thrust of the engines is known to us. The dimensions cannot exceed the capabilities of a ship's lift
The Russian Air Force does not need a carrier-based aircraft of this size. Instead, an interceptor with a range comparable to or exceeding the range of enemy cruise missiles is needed. The PAK DP will replace the MiG-31, Su-34 and Tu-22M3. The engines of the izd.30 allow you to create an aircraft with a maximum take-off weight of more than 60 tons and the corresponding capabilities

Nowhere has it been publicly stated that the PAK DP will replace the Su-34 and Tu-22M3 in addition to the MiG-31. But it is undoubtedly a logical thought.
And thanks for your work.
 
Yeah, I forgot that one too. Some can do both roles, such would be called fighter-interceptors, but the rest, not so much.
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
And as such, we can only speculate until then. But even if it does come out, there's still enough room to speculate, only more specific, and much narrower. Either ways, I can't wait to see what the NGAD might look like, and what it can offer.
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
Either ways, I can't wait to see what the NGAD might look like,
Don't hold your breath then. Kendall said he would like to keep NGAD as secret as long as he can. Remember when Popular Mechanics predicted that we would see the demonstrator"very soon"? Yeah, that didn't age well.
USAF may announce it will be shown to the public in 2035, when it reaches IOC, only for them to backtrack and push the date to 2037, at FOC. The fact that we already saw the first glimpse of the B-21 only 7 years after the LRS-B contract was awarded in 2015, speaks magnitudes of difference between the two programs. and that NGAD is at least one level above of the B-21 in terms of classification:

Next Generation Air Dominance (YF-220/X-273?)Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider
-Has been officially flying since 2020, at night presumably, but the manned X-Plane could have been roaming around since 2017-2018 or earlier.No first flight still, although date has been pushed back several times, 2021, 2022, and finally 2023.
-Technical specifications are closely guarded, shape being the one thing they are reluctant to share, unless you count the photos at Helendale and GroomUnveiled on December 2, 2022. Reasoning behind the reveal was that once outdoor testing begins, hiding it from spotters won't be doable, yet that doesn't seem to be holding back 6th Gen testing.
-Allegedly entered EMD phase in June 2022, there has been some confusion, with statements being "corrected".EMD nearly finished and currently transitioning to LRIP.

The US seems fully determined in wanting to keep China's future fighter in development hell for as long as possible, by withholding information, publishing misleading concept art of fancy dorito airframes and also try to lure them into producing a fighter that would be theoretically a 6th Gen, but technologically obsolete. Just like early ATF concepts/MiG 1.44 MFI, that fell more in lines of contemporary aircraft like the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. Chronologically, they would have qualified as 5th Gen, the use of S-ducts and AESA radars and other features making them deserving of the title, yet they are grouped as 4.5 Gen/4+++. If that hadn't been the case, then the F-22 would've belonged to a generation of its own back then.

In the game of outwaiting the other, 15 or 20 years into the future, China may get desperate and reveal their bird, only for the US to declassify their own and... BAM! It is something way more advanced, not necessarily tailless.
 
Last edited:
The USAF is holding all of its cards very close to the chest. We have no information on AIM-260 outside that it is rocket powered and fits into the same space as AIM-120. I don't think we'll see anything regarding NGAD until it enters EMD. At that point it probably will be too hard to cover up from spotters like B-21.
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
Either ways, I can't wait to see what the NGAD might look like,
Don't hold your breath then. Kendall said he would like to keep NGAD as secret as long as he can. Remember when Popular Mechanics predicted that we would see the demonstrator"very soon"? Yeah, that didn't age well.
USAF may announce it will be shown to the public in 2035, when it reaches IOC, only for them to backtrack and push the date to 2037, at FOC. The fact that we already saw the first glimpse of the B-21 only 7 years after the LRS-B contract was awarded in 2015, speaks magnitudes of difference between the two programs. and that NGAD is at least one level above of the B-21 in terms of classification:

Next Generation Air Dominance (YF-220/X-273?)Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider
-Has been officially flying since 2020, at night presumably, but the manned X-Plane could have been roaming around since 2017-2018 or earlier.No first flight still, although date has been pushed back several times, 2021, 2022, and finally 2023.
-Technical specifications are closely guarded, shape being the one thing they are reluctant to share, unless you count the photos at Helendale and GroomUnveiled on December 2, 2022. Reasoning behind the reveal was that once outdoor testing begins, hiding it from spotters won't be doable, yet that doesn't seem to be holding back 6th Gen testing.
-Allegedly entered EMD phase in June 2022, there has been some confusion, with statements being "corrected".EMD nearly finished and currently transitioning to LRIP.

The US seems fully determined in wanting to keep China's future fighter in development hell for as long as possible, by withholding information, publishing misleading concept art of fancy dorito airframes and also try to lure them into producing a fighter that would be theoretically a 6th Gen, but technologically obsolete. Just like early ATF concepts/MiG 1.44 MFI, that fell more in lines of contemporary aircraft like the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. Chronologically, they would have qualified as 5th Gen, the use of S-ducts and AESA radars and other features making them deserving of the title, yet they are grouped as 4.5 Gen/4+++. If that hadn't been the case, then the F-22 would've belonged to a generation of its own back then.

In the game of outwaiting the other, 15 or 20 years into the future, China may get desperate and reveal their bird, only for the US to declassify their own and... BAM! It is something way more advanced, not necessarily tailless.

what photos at Helendale or Groom?

are they the ones found on dreamland resort including the mystery see through shelter ?

cheers
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
You may be disappointed. A demonstrator only serves to prove a particular technology, as opposed to a prototype which would lead directly to a production design. The demonstrators could turn out to be the 'chrome' aircraft that have already been photographed.
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
Either ways, I can't wait to see what the NGAD might look like,
Don't hold your breath then. Kendall said he would like to keep NGAD as secret as long as he can. Remember when Popular Mechanics predicted that we would see the demonstrator"very soon"? Yeah, that didn't age well.
USAF may announce it will be shown to the public in 2035, when it reaches IOC, only for them to backtrack and push the date to 2037, at FOC. The fact that we already saw the first glimpse of the B-21 only 7 years after the LRS-B contract was awarded in 2015, speaks magnitudes of difference between the two programs. and that NGAD is at least one level above of the B-21 in terms of classification:

Next Generation Air Dominance (YF-220/X-273?)Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider
-Has been officially flying since 2020, at night presumably, but the manned X-Plane could have been roaming around since 2017-2018 or earlier.No first flight still, although date has been pushed back several times, 2021, 2022, and finally 2023.
-Technical specifications are closely guarded, shape being the one thing they are reluctant to share, unless you count the photos at Helendale and GroomUnveiled on December 2, 2022. Reasoning behind the reveal was that once outdoor testing begins, hiding it from spotters won't be doable, yet that doesn't seem to be holding back 6th Gen testing.
-Allegedly entered EMD phase in June 2022, there has been some confusion, with statements being "corrected".EMD nearly finished and currently transitioning to LRIP.

The US seems fully determined in wanting to keep China's future fighter in development hell for as long as possible, by withholding information, publishing misleading concept art of fancy dorito airframes and also try to lure them into producing a fighter that would be theoretically a 6th Gen, but technologically obsolete. Just like early ATF concepts/MiG 1.44 MFI, that fell more in lines of contemporary aircraft like the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. Chronologically, they would have qualified as 5th Gen, the use of S-ducts and AESA radars and other features making them deserving of the title, yet they are grouped as 4.5 Gen/4+++. If that hadn't been the case, then the F-22 would've belonged to a generation of its own back then.

In the game of outwaiting the other, 15 or 20 years into the future, China may get desperate and reveal their bird, only for the US to declassify their own and... BAM! It is something way more advanced, not necessarily tailless.
Actually, that's a very good proposition then. Not only does the project have more time to be further upgraded with newer classified technologies that are either developed by the Military and not known to the Companies, or not even known to the Military itself and probably only to the companies involved, (Either or both is possible because both the Military and the differing Defense Companies have laboratories and research facilities of their own) but that also means more time for speculation and theorizing too! Maybe even some additional time to discuss on how the NGAD will incorporate some newer technologies that are being revealed or if not, theorized. That being said, that also means that even during its classified period, the mission for the NGAD might change as new technology is developed, and new experiences gained from any global conflict is learned. As such, these advancements may ultimately change the very definition of what NGAD means and what it's supposed to do, for better or worse, but hopefully for the better.

Going back to the Global Conflict example, The War in Ukraine is providing lots of much-needed lessons to the Military on what to do in a current war, and this may also affect or outright change some of, if not all the combat mission parameters of the NGAD itself. What's not to say that in the future, aside from of some types of missiles, fighters may fire loitering munition drones that can go to their destination, have enough energy to loiter around until the time comes, and then strike. Or these drones could just either accompany the NGAD as part of its Loyal Wingmen Squadron, or be fired from specialized mothership drones themselves. Additionally, there may be increased AGM capabilities for the NGAD so that they can easily deal not just with Radar and SAM positions for SEAD missions, but also fulfill an Attack or Tactical Bomber role from afar and high above. If the NGAD would possibly be bomber size or more, what's not to say that they may handle smaller and more modern Cruise Missiles for the AGM mission, while having some very long range AAMs for the AAM Mission. At this point, it's possible that despite its name, the NGAD will go on to become the most capable Multi-Role aircraft that ever existed, and it will be a "Jack-Of-All-Trades, Master-Of-All-Trades" type of military aircraft.

But of course in the end of all this, it's just speculation, and obviously has no backing to it due to how secretive the NGAD project currently is, and it's probably better to keep it this way, even if it should be unveiled someday, like how some information and capabilities regarding the F-22 and F-35 still remain classified, despite how both aircraft are now out and about. Regardless, The true capabilities of the NGAD, will never be known at all, even to their makers and users, perhaps only a select few or actually none at all will fully know, and rightly so, because the NGAD is already a monster per its description and capabilities, what's not to say that it will be far, far worse than that, to our enemies at least? (And any unlucky pilot participating in an exercise, fighting against it). So, whatever may happen to the NGAD, I am very certain through some descriptions and reports about it, that it will absolutely be capable of dominating the skies even if it has less than half the capabilities that were described. But I'm willing to bet that it will actually go beyond the capabilities described in every bit of information regarding the NGAD, and that would be for a good reason.
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
You may be disappointed. A demonstrator only serves to prove a particular technology, as opposed to a prototype which would lead directly to a production design. The demonstrators could turn out to be the 'chrome' aircraft that have already been photographed.
I think when Will Roper said “We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it”, it probably meant more than just Chrome Camouflage and studying possible Active Camouflage capabilities. It could also mean achieving several other types of records as well, many of them possibly being speed, distance and altitude records. But anything is possible at this point, as long as we don't know what the demonstrator was at all.
 
Could also be other records - e.g. "most numerous airflow sensors" or "most expensive technology demonstrator."
Maybe, but these don't usually come to the minds of many people when they hear "Records". And I'm sure Will Roper knows that, so he's definitely implying that the demonstrator broke records that would put many existing aviation-related records, and a few non-related records on the Guiness World Records to shame, or maybe it made new records that never existed before. It can be both, for all we know.
 
The real answer will be with the unveiling of the demonstrator, before that we don't know what the NGAD is.
You may be disappointed. A demonstrator only serves to prove a particular technology, as opposed to a prototype which would lead directly to a production design. The demonstrators could turn out to be the 'chrome' aircraft that have already been photographed.
I think when Will Roper said “We’ve already built and flown a full-scale flight demonstrator in the real world, and we broke records in doing it”, it probably meant more than just Chrome Camouflage and studying possible Active Camouflage capabilities. It could also mean achieving several other types of records as well, many of them possibly being speed, distance and altitude records. But anything is possible at this point, as long as we don't know what the demonstrator was at all.
I thought it was pretty obvious he was talking about the timeline for the demonstrator with that quote.

Regardless, I very much doubt the demonstrator is at all close to representative to the actual NGAD aircraft. According to Air Force statements they've still yet to select a prime contractor and they've walked back on any claims of NGAD being in EMD (which is when the first production representative aircraft would be made).
 
I thought it was pretty obvious he was talking about the timeline for the demonstrator with that quote.

Regardless, I very much doubt the demonstrator is at all close to representative to the actual NGAD aircraft. According to Air Force statements they've still yet to select a prime contractor and they've walked back on any claims of NGAD being in EMD (which is when the first production representative aircraft would be made).
I don't think he was just talking about the timeline for the demonstrator. He might be literally saying or implying that the demonstrator that was created actually did break records throughout its testing phase (Records which may not be written down yet, for obvious reasons).

But otherwise, I would agree with you on what you said regarding the Demonstrator, because the Demonstrator might actually be one of those X-Planes that are specifically developed to test out some new and innovative capability for future aircraft. As such, it would not be an actual NGAD airframe as a whole, and if the USAF is covering up and keeping even a demonstrator as top secret and classified to the public, who knows what the actual NGAD fighter in question is gonna look like, and what capabilities it will have. Not even theorizing and speculating, as we all did in this thread will actually get us any closer to "knowing" what the NGAD really is, apart from some vague statements by high-ranking political and military officials who are either obviously or most likely to be in the know about the NGAD.

And finally, maybe they did those walkbacks so as to further blanket the entire project in secrecy. I'm sure they already have a winning design, or are merging multiple winning designs into one capable airframe. The fact that they recently announced a grant for the NGAP project, which has 5 companies involved (Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, General Electric, and Raytheon Technologies), means that they might possibly be doing a multi-company project for the NGAD as well, or that they let one company handle the manned fighter component, another, the loyal wingmen drones, a third, the avionics and sensory systems, and so on.

Of course, we wouldn't fully know this until the time comes that they unveil the NGAD as a whole, but until then, even the so-called "Demonstrator" is still mysterious as a whole, and as always, we can only speculate and discuss about it with as much as we know and can say.
 
Last edited:
Since we're speculating...

There seems to be a general understanding that the CCP may find it necessary to make a rash judgment in the next few years. With that premise, it seems to me that FK is clearing the decks to prepare for that possibility. To be clear, I don't believe that the CCP can threaten the existence of the United States. But neither could Russia, and we've seen the catastrophe that happens when the other guy makes a bad judgment call.

'NGAD family of systems' products are being developed, perhaps even accelerated. Various drone systems will come sooner than the manned airframe. There's talk of converting some F-15C squadrons to no manned aircraft. The F-35 Block 4 Tech Refresh 3 is being pushed for 2023 production. There will be a new radar in a year or so. Older F-22's are being culled while newer will receive upgrades. Perhaps these upgrades to both aircraft will be necessary to coordinate with 'NGAD family of systems products.'

F-15EX orders are being curtailed bc hypersonics are too expensive for the quantity needed in the Indo-Pacific. They will not be relevant in the time required. There are other munitions that are also not being ordered in significant quantities. Perhaps this is to make budget for the quantity of standoff munitions.

I believe NGAD will be developed like the F-117. There will be an airframe that meets particular requirements; stealth, legs, and a weapons bay sufficient for the time on station. Everything else will come from the parts bin. The key tech will be line of site weapons systems communication and coordination between aircraft. Sharing of munitions and targets is the advantage. I expect this capability exists in the B-21 systems.

That being said, I would like to see the manned NGAD prior to 2030. I believe it is possible. I don't believe it will be available in the numbers required to be relevant in 2030.

You go to war with what you've got. Let's keep the other guys guessing as to what the US has in the locker. Perhaps it will be a squadron of NGAD's developed in the black, but let's not bank on it.

We shall see.
 
So, the thing we're missing here i think, with these big long range aircraft is the human factor.

The USAF has been worried about long duration missions and the effect of dehydration for years.



I've got no idea of the ranges and mission lengths we're really talking about in the Asia areas, but even with super-cruise you're going to be sat in that same seat with no decent food or fluid for hours on end. The effect on the crew effectiveness will be immense, this is when mistakes are made, missions fail and crew and aircraft will be lost.

I'd certainly not want to be flying these missions thanks, i think this is where you'd want the optionally piloted version with the pilot / crew sat at a desk somewhere else.

Happy for you all to prove me wrong,
 
Here is my four point [ultra accurate] speculation
1) Bigger than the F-22 although “not big enough”
2) Higher number of internal weapons carried although “still not enough”
3) More expensive (ie too expensive)
4) not enough will get build (see 3) above)
;)
 
Since we're speculating...
You and me both. And that's as long as we don't get any visual or informational confirmation regarding the NGAD's nature.

There seems to be a general understanding that the CCP may find it necessary to make a rash judgment in the next few years. With that premise, it seems to me that FK is clearing the decks to prepare for that possibility. To be clear, I don't believe that the CCP can threaten the existence of the United States. But neither could Russia, and we've seen the catastrophe that happens when the other guy makes a bad judgment call.
At this point, both China and Russia could never scramble enough resources to counter whatever it is the US are designing, especially when it comes to Sixth-Generation Fighters. Russia moreso, not just because of their war with Ukraine, but also their own production of the Su-57 being lackluster that they only have less than 11 units available, and the rampant corruption that's also further hindering progress. As such, I can see China having the capability to field their own Sixth-Generation Fighter before Russia does. But I'm further positive that by the time China actually fields their own Sixth-Generation Fighter, the US would not just already have a sufficient number of NGAD units to counter them, but also be working on a Seventh-Generation Fighter right after being finished with the NGAD.

'NGAD family of systems' products are being developed, perhaps even accelerated. Various drone systems will come sooner than the manned airframe. There's talk of converting some F-15C squadrons to no manned aircraft. The F-35 Block 4 Tech Refresh 3 is being pushed for 2023 production. There will be a new radar in a year or so. Older F-22's are being culled while newer will receive upgrades. Perhaps these upgrades to both aircraft will be necessary to coordinate with 'NGAD family of systems products.'
The way I see it, if the USAF will turn some older aircraft into unmanned drones, perhaps modifying them to remove their cockpits, and replace them with loads of enhanced sensor and avionics technologies, then they can be the Loyal Wingmen drones that will accompany the NGAD manned fighter component all throughout their missions. While this can be a cost-saving measure, as one does not need to create wholly new and specialized airframes to contend with any new situations, the problem would be that they would be limited by the fuel capacity and powerplant of their respective aircraft types. And that especially applies to their combat ranges.

Whereas making wholly new, dedicated drone airframes for the NGAD would be far more expensive (Some of them can be more expensive than legacy fighter aircraft themselves), they may be made with the specific missions of the NGAD in mind, and thus, will only be upgraded as the missions change, and technology improves and increases, instead of older airframes being upgraded to adopt to their new missions, which the older airframes possibly can't handle. As such, newer loyal wingmen drones specially designed for the NGAD Family of Systems can be able to fulfill their mission requirements, because they are specifically designed with the mission in mind.

F-15EX orders are being curtailed bc hypersonics are too expensive for the quantity needed in the Indo-Pacific. They will not be relevant in the time required. There are other munitions that are also not being ordered in significant quantities. Perhaps this is to make budget for the quantity of standoff munitions.
I suppose that a limited amount of Hypersonic AGM or AAM missiles will be made, ones that would be specifically used, and fired by the NGAD manned fighter component and its Loyal Wingmen drones. The NGAD manned fighter component might be just big enough to handle a number of such missiles, seeing that they are rather large and long for any ordinary internal weapons bays from current stealth fighters to store. Other than the NGAD as a whole, only bombers or other larger aircraft may be capable of handling, storing, and firing hypersonic missiles.

I believe NGAD will be developed like the F-117. There will be an airframe that meets particular requirements; stealth, legs, and a weapons bay sufficient for the time on station. Everything else will come from the parts bin. The key tech will be line of site weapons systems communication and coordination between aircraft. Sharing of munitions and targets is the advantage. I expect this capability exists in the B-21 systems.
I doubt that it would share any, if all pre-existing parts from prior aircraft, due to how complex the aircraft would be. At least for its engines, we know that it would be adopting the resulting engine from the NGAP and AETP program, which mind you, will be creating a unique engine for the NGAD, whatever its winning design is (Mind you, the NGAP program will produce a unique engine for the NGAD, even though part of its program is purposed to create a replacement Adaptive/Variable engine for the F-35). Its avionics, sensor technologies, and materials composition will also be too radically different, and thus might be comprised of things not used on any aircraft before the NGAD. Overall, the NGAD might actually be a rather wholly new and innovative aircraft, with 100% of its parts being wholly unique and suited only to it, and not transferable to other aircraft. As a result, the NGAD will have a rather hefty price, one that is very expensive for all the tech, bells and whistles that it has. (SMG Consulting says 300 million dollars, but I think it would go beyond that amount, and it may remain expensive for a long time even after it enters production).

Other than the key techs you have presented, which will be very useful for the NGAD BTW, it will have the capacity to possibly cruise at hypersonic speeds, if the engine allows, as well as having enough room and power for Direct-Energy Weapons, which will aid the NGAD in taking down any incoming enemy missiles, among others. And even in its communication and coordination capabilities, the NGAD will be supreme at that role, because if it has a rather extensive sensor systems that can reach as far as the entire battlefield, and beyond it too, it would be able to play a quarterback role, and notify either its loyal wingmen drones, or any nearby manned aircraft of the location and type of enemy forces, in real time.

That being said, I would like to see the manned NGAD prior to 2030. I believe it is possible. I don't believe it will be available in the numbers required to be relevant in 2030.

You go to war with what you've got. Let's keep the other guys guessing as to what the US has in the locker. Perhaps it will be a squadron of NGAD's developed in the black, but let's not bank on it.

We shall see.
We may likely get a prototype by 2025 or 2027, but production wouldn't begin until 2030, so expect that there will be a number of NGAD units, and their accompanying Loyal Wingmen drone units by the 2040s, should be enough for when a second cold war will become far more evident than before.

Regardless of how the US will deal with it, we know that they will always aim to be on top of their game, and increase the gap between them, and the 2nd placer, so that the 2nd placer won't hope to beat the winner, even if they tried. And if that means creating a sufficient number of black programs, many of them that won't be revealed until decades after they were made, to one-up and exceed our enemies in terms of technologies made, then that's definitely the way to go. For all we know, NGAD units are already existing, and work on a Seventh-Generation Fighter is now ongoing, just hidden from the public for good reasons.

Until then, all that we can do regarding this, is speculate.
 
Last edited:
So, the thing we're missing here i think, with these big long range aircraft is the human factor.

The USAF has been worried about long duration missions and the effect of dehydration for years.



I've got no idea of the ranges and mission lengths we're really talking about in the Asia areas, but even with super-cruise you're going to be sat in that same seat with no decent food or fluid for hours on end. The effect on the crew effectiveness will be immense, this is when mistakes are made, missions fail and crew and aircraft will be lost.

I'd certainly not want to be flying these missions thanks, i think this is where you'd want the optionally piloted version with the pilot / crew sat at a desk somewhere else.

Happy for you all to prove me wrong,
Isn't that why the B-2s actually have a kitchen and a toilet? And a bunk, if I can recall from one video I watched. And I think this sort of accommodations may be repeated in the NGAD, if it's big enough, especially that it may have to escort the B-21s on their deep penetration missions beyond the Pacific.

After all, the NGAD's gonna be a different type of aircraft altogether, and if the USAF follows what the CSBA and some other groups are suggesting, it will resemble more of a bomber than any traditional fighters, so the cockpit may be changed to reflect this too.
 
Last edited:
Here is my four point [ultra accurate] speculation
1) Bigger than the F-22 although “not big enough”
2) Higher number of internal weapons carried although “still not enough”
3) More expensive (ie too expensive)
4) not enough will get build (see 3) above)
;)
1: Definitely not big enough, might be as big as a bomber if they are to achieve most, if not all of the requirements that are expected of them

2: Not just more weapons, but also the capacity to carry much larger weapons in the future, like Hypersonic Missiles, and MOPs, if ever they would be doing that kind of role

3: SMG consulting says they may cost as much as 300 million dollars, but I'm willing to bet that it actually goes even higher, due to the sheer amount of new and novel technologies that it will have.

4: There may be a need for only around a 100 of these units. The Loyal Wingmen Drones will be the ones to bring in the numbers for the NGAD and the future fighter force as a whole.
 
I don't think the USAF is going to use any of its old aircraft as UAVs. There's little reason to; it isn't cheap in terms of airframe cost and maintenance and it doesn't add much capability sans pilot. They appear to be looking at much cheaper subsonic CCAs, some of which would be near disposable and unarmed, and others larger and perhaps carrying short range weapons. The key enabler is range and low cost: an XQ-58 even tricked out is a < $10 million airframe that can do a ~1500/2400km round trip without an airfield. Tryin to turn QF-16s into full up loyal wingmen isn't going to give the numbers or the range compared to a hot production line building some kind of derivative of that.

I think the initial boost/glide hypersonics will be so expensive that they are few in number and the high speed will limit their guidance modes to static targets. But I think HACM will find a sweet spot of Mach 5-6 where relatively cheap production materials are viable (both HAWC designs use an all 3D printed combustor) and AAM type terminal guidance modes readily achievable for moderate cost. As such I expect it to be a multi domain weapon that can engage large aircraft in A2A (AWACs, MPAs, tankers, bombers, etc) , on top of being an anti-shipping weapon and hitting land targets. I think it will cost an order of magnitude less than the TBG type weapons and be far, far more prolific. That said, it seems pointless to have a large 300nm/500km weapon on your high speed stealth platform. Perhaps the weapons bay(s) will be able to accommodate it in a pinch, but it will be a huge weapon relative to current AAMs.

I doubt NGAD borrows much from other programs the way B-21 allegedly has - if nothing else the engines are definitely going to be platform specific. That said if there's any existing coatings, avionics, or other technology that is easily transferable I'm sure it will be - the USAF seems to have turned a new leaf recently (let us say post F-35) when it comes to using technology that is "good enough", and for some facets of NGAD I would guess they use what is handy.

I think we're in no position who to know who wins the technology fight between the US and PRC. We basically know nothing about the state of the art at this point, given the secrecy from both sides. It does seem quite clear Russia will not be able to catch up, both in terms of technology and most especially in terms of production numbers.
 
I don't think the USAF is going to use any of its old aircraft as UAVs. There's little reason to; it isn't cheap in terms of airframe cost and maintenance and it doesn't add much capability sans pilot. They appear to be looking at much cheaper subsonic CCAs, some of which would be near disposable and unarmed, and others larger and perhaps carrying short range weapons. The key enabler is range and low cost: an XQ-58 even tricked out is a < $10 million airframe that can do a ~1500/2400km round trip without an airfield. Tryin to turn QF-16s into full up loyal wingmen isn't going to give the numbers or the range compared to a hot production line building some kind of derivative of that.
I see. I didn't know that would actually be a more expensive venture, but come to think of it, as the parts for legacy fighter aircraft become fewer and fewer, the overall price for the parts, as well as the overall price for the aircraft in question will increase, so the way I see it, creating wholly new loyal wingmen drones purposed to be able to accompany the NGAD manned fighter component all the way to its maximum combat radius range, and loiter for as long as possible, while having several weapons, sensors, avionics and other technologies to help assist the NGAD manned fighter component in their missions, is simply the much wiser choice at this point.

However expensive they may be (I think the Drones will have a quarter or more of the possible cost of the NGAD manned fighter component itself), the program itself will be more economical in the long run, and the drones themselves will prove beyond their worth if they are able to do even half of what they are supposed to be capable of. Plus the absence of a pilot saves further money and materials that would have been used to make the necessary systems and amenities for the pilot, and instead focus on creating enough room for all the necessary technologies needed for the drone to operate at full power, and with power effiency.
I think the initial boost/glide hypersonics will be so expensive that they are few in number and the high speed will limit their guidance modes to static targets. But I think HACM will find a sweet spot of Mach 5-6 where relatively cheap production materials are viable (both HAWC designs use an all 3D printed combustor) and AAM type terminal guidance modes readily achievable for moderate cost. As such I expect it to be a multi domain weapon that can engage large aircraft in A2A (AWACs, MPAs, tankers, bombers, etc) , on top of being an anti-shipping weapon and hitting land targets. I think it will cost an order of magnitude less than the TBG type weapons and be far, far more prolific. That said, it seems pointless to have a large 300nm/500km weapon on your high speed stealth platform. Perhaps the weapons bay(s) will be able to accommodate it in a pinch, but it will be a huge weapon relative to current AAMs.
That could be one of the reasons why I speculate that the NGAD has to be much bigger then usual fighters before it, at the cost of maneuverability and to an extent, speed. It's also possible (And as suggested by the CSBA on their report entitled "Trends In Air-To-Air Combat: Implications For Future Air Supremacy"), though uncertain, that during combat, it is ideal that the NGAD flies at subsonic speeds so as to reduce heat from friction, and therefore, reducing the chances of being detected by the enemy's IR sensors. The much-longer ranged weapons will more than compensate for the increasing gap between fighters, and in many cases, will even exceed whatever speed the enemy fighters are at the moment it is fired. Thus, no matter how fast these fighters can get, they can run, but they cannot run far enough. They can only go so far until they get struck down by a missile, and then straight up write off that aircraft in their registry. That is unless, the enemy aircraft itself can go hypersonic.

And while Hypersonic Missiles that are versatile and adaptable to every target and situation sounds tempting, and practical (As only one type of missile will be produced for the NGAD, saving money), there are already ongoing very long range projects, such as the Long Range Engagement Weapon (LREW) and AIM-260 Joint Advanced Tactical Missile (JATM), and unless these projects are shelved or merged into the hypersonic missile program, it's likely that the NGAD will be armed with a variety of missiles, each specified for different roles, same as previous generations.

The question of how many such missiles it can contain, depends on how much space that it can provide for its internal weapons bays. And if the NGAD will be bomber-sized, then that's probably enough space to add a sufficient number of missiles, hypersonic or not, inside. It can possibly take a page from the B-2 and B-21, and have a rotating drum for their missiles, but that's just its possible layout, and of course, we don't know if this is gonna become reality at some point. As such, we can only speculate on how large those weapons bays will be, and by extension, how many weapons can it store, which is tied directly to how big the NGAD manned fighter component will be.

I doubt NGAD borrows much from other programs the way B-21 allegedly has - if nothing else the engines are definitely going to be platform specific. That said if there's any existing coatings, avionics, or other technology that is easily transferable I'm sure it will be - the USAF seems to have turned a new leaf recently (let us say post F-35) when it comes to using technology that is "good enough", and for some facets of NGAD I would guess they use what is handy.
To that, I agree, as I stated earlier. We may never know what the NGAD would be at all, not even in mere appearance and capability, but one thing is for certain: The NGAD won't be sharing any parts with any legacy aircraft, and that extends to the F-22, F-35, and maybe even the B-21, though they belong to the same aircraft generation. What I might disagree on, is that there are some technologies, like avionics, coatings, weaponry, sensors, and whatnot, that can be easily transferable. The research that might be made for the NGAD in all fields will be strictly be exclusive to the NGAD only, same as if in the far future, technologies and parts that belong to the future Seventh-Generation Fighter will be exclusive to it, and not be transferrable to the NGAD as a whole. Maybe it can be easily transferable between similar units of the NGAD, as they might possibly be modular, similar to the B-21, but the tech might not be cross-compatible with other aircraft, as mentioned earlier.

As such, parts that belong the NGAD manned fighter component and the Loyal Wingmen drones, might be strictly be transferrable between them, and not be transferred to other aircraft. And assuming that the USAF might proceed with the 15-year airframe span for the first NGAD models, after which they will be replaced by upgraded versions, that also means that there might eventually be a surplus of parts that will never be transferrable to other existing aircraft, which may further increase the price as a result.

And finally, we know to an extent that "Good Enough" is NOT Good Enough to the USAF. If they can make it immensely better in all ways than before, they most definitely would. And that same fate will happen to the NGAD should the USAF begin any kind of work and research into their future Seventh-Generation Fighter. Publicly, they made it that certain pre-existing technologies can be easily transferrable and useful to some future programs, but that could just be on the surface, and merely said to appease some of the Political figures that are giving them the budget they need. In actuality, they will most likely build up on this technology to the point that it becomes vastly and radically different from where it sprang from, it might as well be something innovative to the public, and they will definitely parade it around as such, without telling or revealing the full details, just like what they did with the NGAD "Demonstrator".

All they said is that they flew it, and broke records while doing it, and while it leads us to think that they have made immense advancements as early as 2 years ago, the truth is obviously far beyond that. At that point, even that Demonstrator, despite all that it achieved, is "Not Good Enough" for the USAF, and they will definitely make better in the end.

Thus all in all, the NGAD is possibly a wholly unique and original program in itself, unlike the B-21 that heavily borrows from the B-2 and to an extent, the F-35, while having its own unique and innovative capabilities. The NGAD might be a purely new and different aircraft whose parts and statistics stem from immense research that radically changes everything, not just about how one makes aircraft or how one battles with said aircraft, but one that changes and shifts the very name of the Air Supremacy game as a whole. The NGAD might be the stepping point from which fighters change from smaller, more maneuverable aircraft that carry a small amount of weaponry, to larger and less maneuverable but long-ranged aircraft that can properly dish out some damage in ways that bombers can't, and be escorted by drones that fulfill the maneuverability aspect of the mission, as well as performing a variety of roles that are best suited to their capabilities.

And to boot, these new fighters will become the Jack-Of-All-Trades and Master-Of-All-Trades aircraft that are sorely needed in today's changing battle dynamic, and above all, ones that can interconnect with every other sensor in the battlefield, and thus create an immense map of the entire battlefield, which gives it enough information to easily decide the next step of air combat as fast as possible, indirectly and ironically fulfilling the OODA loop that John Boyd taught, despite his disdain for aircraft that are anything but super-maneuverable, sensor-less and missile-less gunfighters.

I think we're in no position who to know who wins the technology fight between the US and PRC. We basically know nothing about the state of the art at this point, given the secrecy from both sides. It does seem quite clear Russia will not be able to catch up, both in terms of technology and most especially in terms of production numbers.
True statement, both countries have their secrets to keep that can make or break their very own military might as a whole. But I can confidentially say that the US has been in the game for years, and by the looks of it, they won't let up, even if their enemies are seemingly getting inches closer to them and closing the gap greatly. No matter how degenerate their society becomes, one thing remains for certain: The US would rather wish to remain #1 in the Military, and they wouldn't let any other country, even their allies, one-up them in making new military innovations and keeping their sphere of power in the same level all throughout.

Thus in order to retain the status quo that they enjoyed, the US has to always stay at #1, and then ensure that the gap between #1 and #2 is very wide, and then keep on making it wider from there. Only then can the status quo be remained, and their increasing innovations be enough of a deterrence to keep their enemies at bay and prevent them from changing it outright.

Disclaimer:

Everything I said is just from speculation and theory based from what I've read about the Next Generation Air Dominance, and the Sixth-Generation Fighters as a whole, so take it with a grain of salt, just as I would take many possible military statements regarding these programs with a grain of salt, and a seed of doubt, knowing that they have something immensely or "infinitely" greater than what they are saying publicly.
 
I could see a high flying drone - >60k feet. Using altitude to enhance los communication and range for munitions.

Speed optimized for range and low manufacturing costs.

You can get pretty stealthy w just shape and w/o the $$$ materials and coatings. They knew in the 40's that Northrops Flying Wing had a low radar cross section. Flying wings have that nice big belly for munitions and fuel as well.
 
I could see a high flying drone - >60k feet. Using altitude to enhance los communication and range for munitions.

Speed optimized for range and low manufacturing costs.

You can get pretty stealthy w just shape and w/o the $$$ materials and coatings. They knew in the 40's that Northrops Flying Wing had a low radar cross section. Flying wings have that nice big belly for munitions and fuel as well.
That's why it seems like Flying Wings might be the future of Military aircraft (Or for some, rather). First, the bombers, and then now, both the fighters and cargo aircraft will be taking such designs too. Or it may not be actual flying wing designs, but at least tail-less ones can do the trick.

And while the shape may be enough to deter stealth, the USAF ain't gonna take any chances and just leave those shapes unpainted and uncoated without RAM. They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.
 
Last edited:
So, the thing we're missing here i think, with these big long range aircraft is the human factor.

The USAF has been worried about long duration missions and the effect of dehydration for years.
I remember reading in Ben Rich's memoir of his career at the Skunk Works that one of his jobs was redesigning a relief funnel for U-2 pilots. Apparently it got very cold at high altitude - I leave the effects of that to the imagination - and his solution was to add a heating element.
 
I could see a high flying drone - >60k feet. Using altitude to enhance los communication and range for munitions.

Speed optimized for range and low manufacturing costs.

You can get pretty stealthy w just shape and w/o the $$$ materials and coatings. They knew in the 40's that Northrops Flying Wing had a low radar cross section. Flying wings have that nice big belly for munitions and fuel as well.

I suspect that is what "RQ-180" already is. Though it also seems quite possible that something smaller and less expensive operates in a more tactical mode as part of NGAD - one artist rendition of the family of CCAs had a flying wing type UAV that might serve as the local communications gateway and ESM receiver.

I think it is important to remember that there almost certainly won't just be one single type of supporting UAV; there likely will be several types with different missions and different levels of expendability, from fighter analog size and speed down to more or less MALD-esque decoy and stand in jammer (but perhaps with some kind of optional recovery mode - UTAP-22 might be a size/cost reference point).
 
I could see a high flying drone - >60k feet. Using altitude to enhance los communication and range for munitions.

Speed optimized for range and low manufacturing costs.

You can get pretty stealthy w just shape and w/o the $$$ materials and coatings. They knew in the 40's that Northrops Flying Wing had a low radar cross section. Flying wings have that nice big belly for munitions and fuel as well.

I suspect that is what "RQ-180" already is. Though it also seems quite possible that something smaller and less expensive operates in a more tactical mode as part of NGAD - one artist rendition of the family of CCAs had a flying wing type UAV that might serve as the local communications gateway and ESM receiver.

I think it is important to remember that there almost certainly won't just be one single type of supporting UAV; there likely will be several types with different missions and different levels of expendability, from fighter analog size and speed down to more or less MALD-esque decoy and stand in jammer (but perhaps with some kind of optional recovery mode - UTAP-22 might be a size/cost reference point).
I suspect that the fighter-sized ones will at least as big as, or bigger than the Stingray, given that a drone as big as the Stingray and with some of its designs incorporated and modified for the air combat role, instead of the air refueling role, into it would have the sufficient amount of fuel to at least almost accompany the NGAD manned fighter component all the way to their maximum combat radius, not to mention, having enough space to contain either the necessary weaponry or avionics technologies that are required of them. I think that the optimal size for the fighter-sized drones is at least Raptor or Eagle sizes and above.
 
Last edited:
They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.

This is not possible. There are severe physical limitations on how much can be absorbed.
 
They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.

This is not possible. There are severe physical limitations on how much can be absorbed.
New physical principles
If I remember, there's new RAM compounds being made that are not only more resistant to climate conditions, temperature and heat changes, and friction, but also absorb way more radiation than current RAM. This particular RAM is gonna be applied to the B-21s (And thus eliminating the need for climate-controlled hangars for the B-21s), and if development still continues, a far more capable RAM compound that will outperform the B-21's RAM in all ways, will be developed just in time for the NGAD.
 
Last edited:
They will apply as much as they can, as much as the airframe allows, until the percentage of it absorbing RADAR is at a very high point, preferably 100 or 99.999 percent or slightly less.

This is not possible. There are severe physical limitations on how much can be absorbed.
If this particular new and innovative brand of RAM actually gets anywhere to any stealth aircraft, it can possibly reach or exceed 90%. Maybe not 100% or 99%, but a higher absorption percentage is better than less
 
If this particular new and innovative brand of RAM actually gets anywhere to any stealth aircraft, it can possibly reach or exceed 90%. Maybe not 100% or 99%, but a higher absorption percentage is better than less

...
star-trek-star-trek-tos-1.gif
 
Last edited:
If this particular new and innovative brand of RAM actually gets anywhere to any stealth aircraft, it can possibly reach or exceed 90%. Maybe not 100% or 99%, but a higher absorption percentage is better than less

...
View attachment 692415
This has nothing to do with the Laws of Physics, rather more or less, someone's attempting to make said Law benefit them more by using more capable radiation-absorbent materials or improving upon existing ones, but whatever floats your boat man.

Knowing us humans, we'll find a workaround in that law to benefit us in the long run.
 
Last edited:
Posted by Air and Space Forces News last week:


Asked about the Next-Generation Interceptor and Next-Generation Air Dominance programs, Malave said Lockheed is confident about the NGI and “other programs here that are classified. … We expect some of those awards to be made either at the tail end of this year or into next year as well.” The Next-Generation Interceptor award is expected in 2025, “and some of these [classified] programs that I just spoke of between now … and 2025.”
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom