USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

Pfft. Not real. The wing aft of the tip-to-tip line is doing almost nothing except generate weight, drag, and interesting longitudinal stability issues, and as for the planform alignment - the signatures group gonna grab you by the collar and drag you into the nearest anechoic chamber, where nobody can hear your squeals for mercy.
 

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I wonder if you saw movie Darkstar planform?
 

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NGAD? A100 or A101, or comparable size (IE, roughly F135 sized!). Maybe a second generation adaptive, using F-22/-35 as test dummies for working the bugs out of the A100 or A101
The conversation is about a light unmanned fighter. For him, two engines are an unacceptable luxury
Not sure it's the right way to look at things.
If unmanned aircraft needs to be 2/4/6-engined - it can be 4-engined. There is, of course, decreasing benefit of not including pilot onboard with the size - but "luxury" is just not the right way to put it.

Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.
It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.
Right.

I'd assume that the drones can follow any NGAD plane, even changing who they listen to mid mission. The trick is writing the handoff process so that it doesn't take much pilot brainpower to do, but is hard to spoof.
 
I would assume satellite control was also a fallback option, at least for short datasets like ROE and behavior settings. Cruise missiles have has such a capability for a decade.
 
Pfft. Not real. The wing aft of the tip-to-tip line is doing almost nothing except generate weight, drag, and interesting longitudinal stability issues, and as for the planform alignment - the signatures group gonna grab you by the collar and drag you into the nearest anechoic chamber, where nobody can hear your squeals for mercy.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know the wing does that?
 
In other news, Col. Dan Javorsek bio has been "updated" with a correction replacing the "X-273" and "YF-220" designations with "prototype" and "demonstrator aircraft". The new names properly match their old description, but a fighter prototype? Flying as back as 2021, or earlier? (Not the X-plane) The revelation that three demonstrators have been flying makes things even more confusing. It makes little sense for a "prototype" to be flying when the EMD award to whichever company is declared winner is not scheduled to happen until 2024. For example, this would be akin to Lockheed traveling in time to "borrow" a brand new EMD F-22 from the future and dropping it alongside the YF-22 amidst ATF trials... in 1990. Yeah, no. Maybe they tried to get too ahead of the game and backfired. It could also mean the competition has been restarted under our noses following the steps of the OMFV/XM30 troubled saga with GDLS basically being told to pack it up and start all over again. F/A-XX? Doubt it. Unless they mean PEA? but it wouldn't receive a YF- prefix, and probably has been absorbed into the ASFoS thing by now.
 

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Edit: to be more clear, what I think is that the demonstrator is way smaller than what the final NGAD will be. The final NGAD proposal will certainly have two engines, but the demonstrator doesn't necessarily need to.
That central sting apparently is _not_ the nozzle hence it's two engined whatever it is. Demonstrator doesn't need to have F135 thrust class monsters to power it. It is something like SAAB 210 in short.
 
“Classified prototype” in this context is commonly a euphemism for FME.
What certain ex-Soviet aircraft do you think could merit the honor aside from the ones everyone already knows of? Unlike certain military hardware, there have been no RuAF fighters spotted on flatbeds on highways half a world away to this day. And the bio specifically highlights his role in the program, so the odds of the actual representative airframes being behind these nomenclatures are possible.
 

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Right.

I'd assume that the drones can follow any NGAD plane, even changing who they listen to mid mission. The trick is writing the handoff process so that it doesn't take much pilot brainpower to do, but is hard to spoof.
Easier than you might think. Set it up so the UAV will accept commands from ANY controller with the right address (and, of course, the correct encryption). It's done today to handle the transfer of control between ground stations.
 
Right.

I'd assume that the drones can follow any NGAD plane, even changing who they listen to mid mission. The trick is writing the handoff process so that it doesn't take much pilot brainpower to do, but is hard to spoof.
Easier than you might think. Set it up so the UAV will accept commands from ANY controller with the right address (and, of course, the correct encryption). It's done today to handle the transfer of control between ground stations.
Ah, that's good, there's already a start to the process then.

Trick is how to let another pilot/aircraft know that they're now in charge because the current controller is entirely too busy dogfighting to do anything else.
 
folks can laugh as they wish but if VGeometry, morphing wings, (very) Advanced Flow Control (AFC) or all the above are abandoned then one is periling one self.

If CAS is not to be completely abandoned.(appears to be the case) than slow low is still a thing..even at the cost of some stealth.
 
Seriously doubt the intakes will be above the wings, there are obvious problems with that for a fighter. Although it looks like the intakes are above and below, which is weird.

Starting to look a lot like:

1688582230462.png
 
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Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.

Where are you going to find these pilots?

Part of the transition from manned to unmanned platforms is due to the lack of birth rates causing a dearth of people, both in cohort size and falling on the right side of the bell curve, to fly aircraft. This is not something Western societies, much less militaries, are equipped to solve. Low births and decreasing quantities of laborers across the board seems immanent in post-WW2 industrial societies both capitalist and communist.

Accepting the problems of unmanned combat systems is something future militaries will need to do if they want to continue to exist.

The most viable long-term solution seems to be an autonomous aircraft that operates with little to no man-in-the-loop capability.
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.

Where are you going to find these pilots?

Part of the transition from manned to unmanned platforms is due to the lack of birth rates causing a dearth of people, both in cohort size and falling on the right side of the bell curve, to fly aircraft. This is not something Western societies, much less militaries, are equipped to solve. Low births and decreasing quantities of laborers across the board seems immanent in post-WW2 industrial societies both capitalist and communist.

Accepting the problems of unmanned combat systems is something future militaries will need to do if they want to continue to exist.

The most viable long-term solution seems to be an autonomous aircraft that operates with little to no man-in-the-loop capability.
I suggest we look at dockside container cranes. Latest systems are unmanned. But a human is needed for the hookup of the container, to deal with wind, weather, ship movement. So a human, sitting in a remote office, is injected for the 30 seconds needed for hookup. After that the SW runs everything.

Not sure why communists are immune to demographics, but that’s politics. Finding a few thousand pilots from, U.K., with 70M people, doesn’t seem too difficult. Everyone likes pilots….

If cut off from human/AI control, the aircraft needs to carry on with its mission. When patchy comms are made, new instructions, ROE can be downloaded.
 
Seriously doubt the intakes will be above the wings, there are obvious problems with that for a fighter. Although it looks like the intakes are above and below, which is weird.

Starting to look a lot like:

View attachment 703068

I guess it depends on how you look at the planform. If it belongs to an SR-72 type of aircraft, M 6 might be doable, but if the profile was that of a fighter, then M 2.5 is realistically the safer bet.
View: https://twitter.com/DrChrisCombs/status/1675525149393559556?s=20
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.

Where are you going to find these pilots?
The same place we currently find F-22 and F-35 pilots?

People want to be Top Guns for some reason.

The most viable long-term solution seems to be an autonomous aircraft that operates with little to no man-in-the-loop capability.
Yes. But everyone still wants a live human to pull the trigger for the foreseeable future, which tends to suggest a small number of NGAD pilots with at least 1 Loyal Wingman/CCA each. And I'm expecting more like 3 CCA per NGAD.
 
Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.

Where are you going to find these pilots?
The same place we currently find F-22 and F-35 pilots?

Nowhere? Pilots across the board are leaving the USAF for private airlines for a bunch of reasons, none of them easily fixed. COVID's already eviscerated Army enlistment for the next 2 years or so, since recruiters couldn't prowl high schools, and the youngest generation of Americans might be the most anti-militant generation since Vietnam.

The USAF has a shortage of specifically frontline combat fighter pilots going on twenty years now, and the airline industry in general has a dearth of them as well, except airlines can generally beat the USAF in terms of benefits. Which is how they got a record hiring year this year, and the USAF is a record low. Less work, more pay, that always wins. That's why the USAF doesn't hurt for Globemaster or Galaxy drivers, for that matter: it's a job that easily translates to the civil field...

It also doesn't lack for B-2 drivers, either, because strategic bombers are cool.

It's getting to the point where the USAF is going to have to offer direct commissions to fly aircraft. There's always the option of training qualified NCOs as pilots, but that's not something the USAF is or was historically prepared to do, and AFAIK only the Imperial Japanese did that. The USAF tried that with drone pilots and immediately nuked it because the fighter pilot corpus complained.

Eventually something will have to give, either the quantity of manned aircraft will need to decrease, or the number of combat squadrons. The USAF simply seems too heavily wedded to manned aircraft to seriously consider unmanned combat systems, so it will probably just continue declining in pilot quantity, and quality (i.e. shifting heavy drivers to fighter squadrons), as it competes with an ever more cutthroat airline industry's better hiring practices.

Part of this is due to a lack of pilot schools, which is what caused the initial 2,000 pilot shortfall back in FY99 that has dogged the USAF for every year since, but that has been resolved for a number of years now. It's just a demographic game these days.

It will likely go into the next world war without enough pilots, which is rather unprecedented in American history. Alternatively, it will simply go to the next war without enough planes, which has some precedent, except back then the US Army could expect new aircraft on a roughly 4 month schedule (more or less, P-39 might be closer to 6 months from prototype to entry into production) instead of more modern ~400 month schedule.

It is a rather dire situation, especially when the PLAAF looks more and more like a reincarnation of the IJN in terms of modernity of ideas.
 
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And I am one of those people that wants a human in the cockpit with the finger on the trigger, I don't want AI controlled AI potentially going rogue and starting world war three.

AMRAAMs never started a war, yet they have finished a couple. DARPA also had some good ideas like Thirsty Saber in hunting TELs prior to Desert Storm. I suspect that would have worked rather better than F-15Es guided by Joint STARS.

There's no functional difference between a autonomous bomber aircraft and an active-radar guided missile in terms of "risk". The only reason human pilots stick around is because bombing weddings or whatever is bad PR, but that sort of brain rot rapidly ceases its importance in general wars.

Vise versa, if we produce really capable loyal/disloyal wingmen - there is no strict rule that manned component shall be a Death star.

It may as well be a small, nimble aircraft, relying primarily on datalinks for tactical picture. If the pilot's mission is to command - do we absolutely need much more than a "flying cockpit"? Or maybe survivability can be increased simply by mimicking a cheaper unmanned component, way down the engagement priority list?
Command and control needs to be protected. Under that model, the manned NGAD would be the stealthiest and well armed for self defense.
Command and control is a single point of failure. It will be the bane of this country if we ever rely on drones like is in process this very minute and more than just paper studies. With manned aircraft, command and control is distributed among the pilots and we can't hack the human mind yet.

Where are you going to find these pilots?

Part of the transition from manned to unmanned platforms is due to the lack of birth rates causing a dearth of people, both in cohort size and falling on the right side of the bell curve, to fly aircraft. This is not something Western societies, much less militaries, are equipped to solve. Low births and decreasing quantities of laborers across the board seems immanent in post-WW2 industrial societies both capitalist and communist.

Accepting the problems of unmanned combat systems is something future militaries will need to do if they want to continue to exist.

The most viable long-term solution seems to be an autonomous aircraft that operates with little to no man-in-the-loop capability.
I suggest we look at dockside container cranes. Latest systems are unmanned. But a human is needed for the hookup of the container, to deal with wind, weather, ship movement. So a human, sitting in a remote office, is injected for the 30 seconds needed for hookup. After that the SW runs everything.

Not sure why communists are immune to demographics, but that’s politics. Finding a few thousand pilots from, U.K., with 70M people, doesn’t seem too difficult. Everyone likes pilots….

If cut off from human/AI control, the aircraft needs to carry on with its mission. When patchy comms are made, new instructions, ROE can be downloaded.

I, too, wonder why a country of 350 million people with a desired span of control of "the entire world" might lose in a industrial and demographic race against a country of 1,500 million people with a desired span of control of "roughly twice the sea area of the Gulf of Mexico".

A real stumper.

Anyway an autonomous aircraft would be autonomous. It would be given orders to "suppress local air defenses" or "destroy enemy aircraft" or "attack airbases" in a geofenced area and proceed to do so. That's it.

Such robotic control apparatus are incredibly common on naval warships. Every American, British, and French destroyer have such things. Humans really can't be expected to guide or track possibly dozens or hundreds of combat weapons outgoing and incoming. They can barely manage to track an airliner right beside them. That's why Aegis (as well as PAAMS possessing an analogue) has the AUTO/SPECIAL mode: the weapons officer has his team set velocity, altitude, and azimuth gates. Anything inside those gates that meets the criteria is engaged and killed automatically by the combat system. It's a good way to ensure that leakers are annihilated before they hit the ship if the crew is suffering from extreme battle stress or information overload.

The only reason they aren't on fighter aircraft is quite literally because pilots are afraid it will make their jobs redundant. They're right, and that's a good thing, at least if you want to win wars. The alternative, which is a post-industrial society having enough kids to produce enough people of sufficient intellect to be good fighter pilots, isn't really realistic. The USSR sort of managed that with absurd quantities of childcare and living subsidies (and such high social expenditures were sustained only by a combination of internal tax revenue and energy exports), as does Israel (albeit this is shrinking; the IDF expects it will be unable to sustain conscription beyond 2035, thus joining the ranks of Europe and America), but that isn't in the cards for any modern Western country.

The PLAAF and PLAN are already ahead of the curve here, mostly because their own pilots are so bad they don't have much of a lobby, and because of the rates of nearsightedness in East Asia make their demographic pressures nearly as bad as the USA's. Their solution is to short-term hire European mercenaries, have a few wings of capable single-seat strike aircraft, and medium- to long-term replace them with robotic aircraft and twin-seat control-fighter-bombers like J-20.

The difference being the PLAAF will actually get a Loyal Wingman if they can build one. The USAF has been able to build one for literally decades, it just prefers manned platforms, for some reason. If the PLAAF gets a functional robotic bomber in quantity there isn't much the USAF can do to challenge that, but as long as that doesn't happen, it's probably fairly close to parity for right now.

Cross your fingers the USAF and USN develop a Loyal Wingman that's actually cheap enough to field at a rate of 2-3 per JSF, otherwise, there won't be enough fighters in Asia to matter for Taiwan and the South China Sea. Hope it's smart enough they don't need a Sentry directing it, too. Lastly, hope the USAF actually procures them, instead of burning more money for it's vaunted 1,700 JSFs it won't have the pilots or maintainers for.
 
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Cross your fingers the USAF and USN develop a Loyal Wingman that's actually cheap enough to field at a rate of 2-3 per JSF, otherwise, there won't be enough fighters in Asia to matter for Taiwan and the South China Sea. Hope it's smart enough they don't need a Sentry directing it, too. If not, better hope that F-35 grows a backseater to control the drones.
Given what they're talking about for Loyal Wingman roles (missile truck, EW, and recon)
  • Recon can probably be outsourced to something the size of an ITALD. Still wouldn't be cheap, because sensors are not cheap, but you could probably afford a couple dozen of them per F-35 or NGAD.
  • EW is likely to be large and expensive, the Growler carries some 7000lbs of various jammers, plus 2000-5000lbs of "immediate response" weapons like 2x AARGM-ER and 2x JSOW. Plus a couple of AMRAAMs for self defense. There might not be one EW drone per F-35/NGAD, because you usually only need one Growler per entire strike package. Ideal is to have one per F-35/NGAD though, so that you can have one manned aircraft per strike package.
  • Missile truck is where things get weird. I see them having at least 4x AAM capacity, and more likely 6x (2x WVR and 4x BVR, whatever the designations end up being). That's going to be way bigger than the XQ-58 Valkyrie, as that can only carry 600lbs internally. It's likely going to be roughly the size of the MQ-20 Avenger (Predator C), as the Avenger can carry 3500lbs internally, and another 3000lbs externally. 3600lbs is enough for 4x AIM-9X and 8x AMRAAMs, and that would be one EVIL surprise for someone.
  • Bomb Truck is a mission the USAF isn't talking about for Loyal Wingman but seems absolutely obvious to me. Send a bomb truck into A2AD space to drop, let the F-35 give the "Weapons Free" command from some distance away. The Bomb Truck would carry 10-15klbs of weapons internally, along with enough fuel to go just as far as the F-35/NGAD. Bay needs to be long enough to hold SLAM-ERs (4.4m) or maybe even a GBU-28 sized weapon (5.70m). As a bomb truck it wouldn't need as fancy a radar (it would need the ground-mapping capabilities for finding targets, but we can go easy on the air search capabilities unless it's cheaper to leave them on an off-the-shelf radar unit), but I would want the DAS from the F-35 as well as a built-in laser designator, for maximum flexibility in weapons employable. Laser JDAMs, plain JDAMs, StormBreakers, SDB-1s, etc ad nauseam.

I have read unclassified reports/press releases that unmanned aircraft have been given a GPS target and have autonomously chosen which of the 4 UCAVs was going to make the approach and which would do something else. My impression was that "something else" was SEAD and decoy/distraction maneuvers for the actual attacker.

So a pilot can take off, tell all the drones on the ground "follow me", fly to the insertion point, tell the 4x Bomb Trucks and 1x EW to go to GPS coordinates and attack then return, fly with his 3x Missile Trucks to shoot down some enemy aircraft until the Bomb Trucks return, then send 1x Recon after the strike for BDA, and finally fly back with however many of the Loyal Wingmen survived. I'm talking a minimum 10 aircraft strike package with only one pilot, and I can see having more EW and Recon to have them accompany the air combat team while the Bomb Trucks are doing their thing.

And I believe that this is all demonstrated capabilities already.
 
The difference being the PLAAF will actually get a Loyal Wingman if they can build one. The USAF has been able to build one for literally decades, it just prefers manned platforms, for some reason.
I think it's a major misunderstanding.
We only now approach to true LW capability technology-wise.
Such level of authonomy, allowing to fully cooperate with manned combat a/c under all conditions, is still tomorrow.

"Go there engage that" (i.e. relatively simple algorithm flier like valkyrie or kilzema) is not a loyal wingman per definition...and even this level of mission authonomy is actually very new.
 
The difference being the PLAAF will actually get a Loyal Wingman if they can build one. The USAF has been able to build one for literally decades, it just prefers manned platforms, for some reason.
I think it's a major misunderstanding.
We only now approach to true LW capability technology-wise.
Such level of authonomy, allowing to fully cooperate with manned combat a/c under all conditions, is still tomorrow.

"Go there engage that" (i.e. relatively simple algorithm flier like valkyrie or kilzema) is not a loyal wingman per definition...and even this level of mission authonomy is actually very new.
Last 10 years or so that it's been admitted in public, maybe 15 for the "go there bomb that" with the added mix of the drones independently deciding among the group which drone would attack directly and which would fly SEAD. "Go there bomb that" has existed since cruise missiles got submunition dispensers in the 1980s.

They have had luck teaching drones how to dogfight. Not sure what drones they were using for this, I don't remember the articles about it saying which drones they used, but the person flying against them beat the drones fairly regularly for a while and then the drones started beating him. This was within the last 5 years in public. I'm guessing QF-16s or something similar that has an airframe that can actually dogfight.

Autonomous takeoffs and landings have been demonstrated within the last 5 years, as have UAVs flying in formation with their assigned aircraft.

But yes, the combination of all of the above is very new, and I'm not sure the entire combination has been put into one drone before.
 
Whoever gets to autonomous UAVs with minimal human intervention first will have a huge advantage, particularly if such a platform is short/rough runway capable or runway independent. I doubt anyone is going to completely run out of pilots or maintainers any time soon, but having an aircraft that is quicker to manufacture and doesn't require a pilot allows for a rapid buildup of mass or replacement of attrition. Even more so if the core control element can be ported across multiple designs and manufacturers, which seems to be what the AFRL is attempting.

I assume the PRC has a similar effort underway, though I've not heard any public information released concerning such. Where as the USAF has so many separate UCAV technology programs investigating different aspects on different platforms that it is difficult to track all of them. Most of them seem like tech feeder projects outside of the CCA program, which will be the actual finished platform.
 

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