USAF/US NAVY 6G Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA, ASFS news

I think what will happen is that large numbers of UAVs with relatively small payload capacity are simply bought in larger numbers rather than dedicated interdiction airframes. But I think manned bombers will continue for some time.
 
Josh_TN said:
I think what will happen is that large numbers of UAVs with relatively small payload capacity are simply bought in larger numbers rather than dedicated interdiction airframes. But I think manned bombers will continue for some time.
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May be, probably depends on range of the interdiction needed.
 
Let's wait and see with the 100 CCAs by 2029, I would like that to happen but at the same time I am highly cautious.
 
I suspect that is not a heavy lift for GA, and probably not Anduril either considering they made the cut. Both vendors have an off shelf vehicle that could carry a pair of AIM-120s externally, and I think that’s all the USAF is looking for for Incr 1 if you can meet their development and production deadlines. The USAF mantra now is “speed to ramp”, and I suspect the team that can deliver the the most aircraft in the smallest space of time is the winner.
 
FighterJock said:
Let's wait and see with the 100 CCAs by 2029, I would like that to happen but at the same time I am highly cautious.
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It's an incredibly long timeline for what are very nearly production ready pieces today. 2027 would be somewhat ambitious.
 
Question:

Has there been any discussion as to whether the Strike Eagles would be replaced by NGAD or if NGAD is purely air superiority?

Because honestly, if you spec out NGAD to have a 125klb MTOW and bays big enough for ~24-27klbs of ordnance, it'd be flying at ~105k MTOW in a pure air-to-air loadout with some 40klbs of fuel onboard. Even if that was a pretty absurd 16x BVRAAM and 4x WVRAAM loadout.

Though honestly, I don't expect the NGAD to be designed around more than about 10klbs internal. 4x2000lb bombs, 2x AMRAAM-sized, 2x Sidewinders. Not that the USAF would fly with bombs in the bays very often, I just mean in terms of having enough space for 2000lb bombs or an SM6 or SM2 Active minus booster (~4.8m long weapons) for absurd range shots.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Question:

Has there been any discussion as to whether the Strike Eagles would be replaced by NGAD or if NGAD is purely air superiority?

Because honestly, if you spec out NGAD to have a 125klb MTOW and bays big enough for ~24-27klbs of ordnance, it'd be flying at ~105k MTOW in a pure air-to-air loadout with some 40klbs of fuel onboard. Even if that was a pretty absurd 16x BVRAAM and 4x WVRAAM loadout.

Though honestly, I don't expect the NGAD to be designed around more than about 10klbs internal. 4x2000lb bombs, 2x AMRAAM-sized, 2x Sidewinders. Not that the USAF would fly with bombs in the bays very often, I just mean in terms of having enough space for 2000lb bombs or an SM6 or SM2 Active minus booster (~4.8m long weapons) for absurd range shots.
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I think it’s a fair question but one no one is asking this early in the NGAD cycle. But it basically is an F-111/15E ish sized thing with internal bays.
 
Purpletrouble said:
Those famous immortal words “very nearly ready”. Oh that did give me a chuckle.

To change the subject entirely, are you interested in buying a bridge I happen to have for sale…? One careful owner.
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Well XQ-67 has certainly flown, so that seems fairly near ready for anything that uses most of those components. Fury seems like more of a stretch and I’d be pretty surprised if they won this thing.
 
Josh_TN said:
I think it’s a fair question but one no one is asking this early in the NGAD cycle. But it basically is an F-111/15E ish sized thing with internal bays.
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It gets into how big you're making the bays. For example, the F22 has bays that are too shallow to hold much of anything bigger than an SDB or maybe a 500lb JDAM. While the A12 bays were explicitly sized for 2000lb LGBs, and JSF bays were sized for 2000lb JDAM depth and JDAM+AMRAAM width.

And "How big are the bays going to be" is the kind of question you really NEED to ask now!
 
F-22 bays can accommodate two 1,000 lb GBU-32 JDAM, plus two AIM-120 (and two AIM-9 in the side bays).
 

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Scott Kenny said:
Q-58s are in production. MQ-28 Ghost Bats have at least 5 flying examples, and will be in service (as in, already contracted) either this year or 2025.
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Only Anduril or General Atomics is in the running for this production run. GA certainly has the capacity; they practically invented the U.S. MALE UAV market. The inclusion of Anduril is curious.
 
Re: CCA weapons bays. My guess is that AAMs will be carried externally on the first increment of CCAs. The XQ-67 appears to about the size of the XQ-58. The latter only has released an expendable drone from its weapons bay, but nothing larger.

But why not build a CCA around around the requirement to carry two AMRAAM sized weapons carried internally? AMRAAM is about a third the size of the XQ-58. The main tactical advantage of carrying missiles internally would be that it would preserve the low observable signature of the CCAs and whatever manned/unmanned formation that is conducting the counter air mission. Would it need to? Could the CCAs with external weapons act to a decoy that masks the manned element? Or would it announce its presence?

The critical question is what is the concept of operations for the CCAs in the air to air fight? F-35 flights and elements fly at much greater distances from each other. Would this be the case with CCAs? Would they operate independently? Or would they operate as an extension of the manned element, like a loyal wingman? That would somewhat depend on the type of sensors carried by the CCA, the range of the aircraft and sensors, and the range of its weapons.

To keep the cost of the CCAs down, it is highly likely that they would not have similar sensors to manned platforms. Maybe mainly just passives ones? IRST? Would relying on off board sensors be enough to target and engage enemy aircraft? It would seem they would need to operate closer to the controlling manned element and would need to be low observable.

Key trade offs for the first increment of CCAs will be:
Size, internal weapons load, sensors, range, speed, runway independence, stealth, cost

It will be interesting what the AF comes up with.
 
B2Blain said:
Re: CCA weapons bays. My guess is that AAMs will be carried externally on the first increment of CCAs. The XQ-67 appears to about the size of the XQ-58. The latter only has released an expendable drone from its weapons bay, but nothing larger.

But why not build a CCA around around the requirement to carry two AMRAAM sized weapons carried internally? AMRAAM is about a third the size of the XQ-58. The main tactical advantage of carrying missiles internally would be that it would preserve the low observable signature of the CCAs and whatever manned/unmanned formation that is conducting the counter air mission. Would it need to? Could the CCAs with external weapons act to a decoy that masks the manned element? Or would it announce its presence?

The critical question is what is the concept of operations for the CCAs in the air to air fight? F-35 flights and elements fly at much greater distances from each other. Would this be the case with CCAs? Would they operate independently? Or would they operate as an extension of the manned element, like a loyal wingman? That would somewhat depend on the type of sensors carried by the CCA, the range of the aircraft and sensors, and the range of its weapons.

To keep the cost of the CCAs down, it is highly likely that they would not have similar sensors to manned platforms. Maybe mainly just passives ones? IRST? Would relying on off board sensors be enough to target and engage enemy aircraft? It would seem they would need to operate closer to the controlling manned element and would need to be low observable.

Key trade offs for the first increment of CCAs will be:
Size, internal weapons load, sensors, range, speed, runway independence, stealth, cost

It will be interesting what the AF comes up with.
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+1

There’s no way the two venders produce an internal AAM capable aircraft. Both are sub 10,000 lb platforms and you cannot just bolt a bomb bay that takes an AAM that is, by itself, half the length of the entire aircraft. Incr 1 will not have internal weapons.
 
Purpletrouble said:
Those famous immortal words “very nearly ready”. Oh that did give me a chuckle.
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It's entirely possible, as XQ-58 has spent the past 6 years never getting a production order, but the Marines seem at least interested now. Kratos certainly has the capacity to tool up too, even if they lack the contracts to afford to do so, so it's not like Q-58 is some impossible hurdle.
 
Kat Tsun said:
It's entirely possible, as XQ-58 has spent the past 6 years never getting a production order, but the Marines seem at least interested now. Kratos certainly has the capacity to tool up too, even if they lack the contracts to afford to do so, so it's not like Q-58 is some impossible hurdle.
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The aircraft you are describing are X-35 equivalents. Concept demonstrators.

The manufacturer literally describe it as experimental.

This is where enthusiasm and reality depart.
 
Purpletrouble said:
The aircraft you are describing are X-35 equivalents. Concept demonstrators.

The manufacturer literally describe it as experimental.

This is where enthusiasm and reality depart.
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Considering the RAAF already has a squadron, expanding to a wing, of MQ-28s, which is Q-58's direct competitor, well...

"Concept demonstrator" is a stretch when the concept is extremely modest in physical and digital terms. Unlike X-35 which was actually novel for its time, Q-58's a tiny UCAV with a single weapons bay for a pair of SDBs (at most) and a very boring turbofan. It's not exactly "state-of-the-art" in any sense of the word.

Right now it is just waiting for a production order, which it may get from the Marines, and no one else.

The Air Force simply isn't interested, probably because it's (rightfully) afraid it will impinge on JSF, NGAD, and NGB orders/funds, while the Navy isn't interested because they don't care about planes, and both would be more interested in front loading their manned fighter numbers before committing to a robotic plane that will make those platforms harder to justify in the future.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Yeah, because they had to basically hyperinspect the aircraft after discovering a bunch of mini liquor bottles stashed in it. (Fault of Boeing Commercial)

And then they could start work on the updates: gut all the old electrical system to install the new USAF one that's EMP shielded. Install additional fuel piping for the Air Refueling receptacle. Probably 5x the generator power.

Oh, and that's after they get all the workers cleared Yankee White to be able to work on Presidential Transports, which takes a year or more.


EB is effectively a separate entity from NG, and it's a USN project. Changing specifications after the area has been built is depressingly normal for the USN...
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Well, Electric Boat is owned by General Dynamics . . .
 
Josh_TN said:
There’s no way the two venders produce an internal AAM capable aircraft. Both are sub 10,000 lb platforms and you cannot just bolt a bomb bay that takes an AAM that is, by itself, half the length of the entire aircraft. Incr 1 will not have internal weapons.
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Sure you can. Remember that an AMRAAM is ~350lbs, carrying two of those is easy for a 10klb platform. Crud, you could probably stuff 2 of them into a 3500lb platform (Tomahawk or ALCM).
 
Scott Kenny said:
Sure you can. Remember that an AMRAAM is ~350lbs, carrying two of those is easy for a 10klb platform. Crud, you could probably stuff 2 of them into a 3500lb platform (Tomahawk or ALCM).
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I think they can carry the weight easily. XQ-58 is supposed to carry 600 lbs internally and 600 lbs more on the wings; that’s nearly four missiles. But trying to fit a 12’ missile inside a 30’ aircraft is going to run into problems with volume and load bearing structure. I do not see any place on Fury or XQ-67 that could support a twelve foot/four meter long moving bay door.
 
Sundog said:
When they say 10% more thrust, they mean for a given weight of engine. It doesn't necessarily mean the baseline size is the F135. The mission profile(s) will determine the optimum size of the engine. So, if the T/W ratio of the F135 is 10 (because it's an easy number), then the NGAD engine will have a thrust to weight ratio of 11.
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Remember that the variable cycle three stream engines have an additional internal fan duct, additional variable geometry & actuators, and probably a more complicated nozzle. Don’t bet on a higher thrust to weight ratio unless some other technology insertions such metal matrix composites for compressor and / or turbine disks comes to fruition.
 
F119Doctor said:
Remember that the variable cycle three stream engines have an additional internal fan duct, additional variable geometry & actuators, and probably a more complicated nozzle. Don’t bet on a higher thrust to weight ratio unless some other technology insertions such metal matrix composites for compressor and / or turbine disks comes to fruition.
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Thanks, that's definitely a very good point I hadn't considered. As with everything in aviation, nothing's free. Weight vs. performance.
 
F119Doctor said:
Remember that the variable cycle three stream engines have an additional internal fan duct, additional variable geometry & actuators, and probably a more complicated nozzle. Don’t bet on a higher thrust to weight ratio unless some other technology insertions such metal matrix composites for compressor and / or turbine disks comes to fruition.
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Unless the YF120 tech and balancing gets dug out of storage...
 

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