US Navy Type Spec 146: rivals to the P-3 Orion

[Pioneer]

Does anyone have any information, design designations, drawings and specifications on the designs submitted in the 1958 US Navy competition, that lead to the Lockheed P-3A Orion Anti-Submarine/Maritime Patrol Aircraft being declared winner?

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Antonio]

Revista de Aeronáutica Núm 208 March 1958. pg 228

Lockheed just announced that its model Electra would have the following versions:

1. Navigation Trainer
2. ECM Trainer
3. Medevac for 76 casualties
4. MATS Transport (91 places)
5. High Speed Cargo

All five models would be powered by Allison T56A-7 powerplant.

In February 1959, the Navy awarded Lockheed a contract to develop a replacement for the aging P-2 Neptune. The P-3V Orion entered the inventory in July 1962

from www.fas.org

Curiously, an ASW version was not contemplated and this the only which enjoyed mass production. Just one question, there was no design competition to replace the Neptune?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Hmmm. 4 years on, can we answer this question? Renamed topic to include relevant Type Spec.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

I must say, I had never given much thought as to what was proposed by others for the P3V program.

P-3 Orion Research Group

Does anyone know/have info on the other 3 competing designs? I have visions of a turboprop DC-7 derivative....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Caravellarella]

Greetings All -

I must say, I had never given much thought as to what was proposed by others for the P3V program.

P-3 Orion Research Group

Does anyone know/have info on the other 3 competing designs? I have visions of a turboprop DC-7 derivative....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Dear Mark, my source tells me there were four other "companies" which entered the same competition; sadly it does tell me which they might be......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Hi Terry -

The way I read it, there were four companies with one being Lockheed. The hunt is on....

BTW - you've been posting some great stuff by the ton - thanks!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[lark]

Specification should be:
U.S.Navy type specification TS-146 -1957.
Nothing more found for the moment...

from : Lockheed Aircraft-Francillon.Putnam.

 

[taildragger]

Here's a USAF-themed desk model that appeared some time ago on eBay. Also, a couple of unrelated observations:
- Long ago in Miami, I saw an Electra belonging to either the Argentinian Air Force or Navy. As I recall, it had a MAD boom or something similar on the tail. It was painted medium blue on the upper surfaces with a lighter blue or grey underneath. National markings were full color and normal sized.
- In the early eighties, I recall seeing in AW&ST that China was shopping abroad for a short/medium range airliner for domestic routes. I got a kick out of reading that Lockheed was proposing an "airliner development of the P-3 Orion". I guess that sounded better in Chinese than "a 30 year old airplane that had a really bad public image".

 

[nugo]

Hi All!

TS-146 competitors:

1) Lockheed CL-367
2) Martin M-347 (land based ASW aircraft---from Martin Aircraft Model Designations, Built and Unbuilt)
3) ?
4) ?

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Greetings All -

I came across this description on Wikipedia:

P5M-3 (Model 313) was revised as P7M-1 Model 313 SubMaster with a single turbojet engine mounted. Mockup built in 1956 and lost out to Lockheed P-3 Orion.

Did Martin submit a landbased and a flying boat to the requirement?

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Stargazer]

What does the Martin 313 have to do with the Lockheed Electra competition? ???

 

[Mark Nankivil]

That's what I thought - I've sent a note to Stan Piet to see what he may have to add to this thread. Stay tuned....

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[lark]

"Code One" magazine - August 2012 mentions
contenders from Martin and Consolidated in the competition.
No more info in the article I think...

 

[fightingirish]

"Code One" magazine - August 2012 mentions
contenders from Martin and Consolidated in the competition.
No more info in the article I think...

[...]
The P-3 came about as a response to Navy Type Specification #146 issued in 1957 for a new land-based antisubmarine warfare, or ASW, aircraft to replace the Lockheed P2V Neptune land-based maritime patrol aircraft and the Martin P5M Marlin flying boat. Very specific requirements pertaining to delivery schedule and cost constraints dictated the need for adapting an off-the-shelf aircraft design for the maritime patrol mission.
The competitors were Martin, Consolidated, and Lockheed, three companies that had been building patrol aircraft for the Navy for more than three decades at that point. The French Atlantique, developed with the help of US Navy funds, did not meet the stated range requirement and was eliminated from the competition.[...]

Source: Code One Magazine - Golden Orion By Jeff Rhodes Posted 22 August 2012

 

[Pioneer]

Wow has it been four years since I posted this question to the forum

Hey nice find fightingirish and lark!!
Interesting read!

Thanks also to Paul for your revisiting the topic! It paid off!!


Regards
Pioneer

 

[lark]

My pleasure Pioneer

 

[LowObservable]

Friedman, in "Network Centric Warfare", describes the Orion's role as an interceptor, to exploit the revolutionary capabilities of SOSUS. Hence, I suspect, the requirement for a higher efficient cruising speed than the P2V.

The interesting question is which off-the-shelf platforms Martin and Convair had to work with. A Super Mercator? A CV-880 ASW?

http://www.usni.org/store/books/history/network-centric-warfare

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_25/sosus.htm

 

[Mark Nankivil]

I'm fairly sure that Convair proposed the P6Y and Martin the P7M .

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[hesham]

From Air Pictorial 7/1958,


was this version of L-188 built ?.

 

[Bill S]

I always hesitate starting a new thread on the forum because somehow I will have missed the search term that leads to a thread already in progress. In searching for PF-1, P3V and TS-146
I found this thread about Lockheed Electra projects that did not quite seem to fit TS-146 Competitors. With all that said, here are some slides from a presentation about the Grumman PF-1.
This is from RG402 "Proposal" Files for Airplanes, Helicopters and Missiles 1934-1961 at NARA II.

The PF-1 proposal was based on the Gulfstream 1 airframe.
What I found was just a copy of the slide deck without the supporting text.
It showed three possible versions of the Gulfstream 1
RF-1 a military passenger version
PF-1 ASW with Rolls Royce Dart Engines
PF-1 ASW with T64 engines

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Very cool - thanks! Mark

 

[Bill S]

A couple more slides from the same deck showing equipment locations and details for the PF-1
Also a slide comparing operating cost of the P3V and PF-1

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Merged with earlier posts on topic of TS-146.

P-3 Orion Research Group

In August 1957 the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) issued Type Specification No. 146, which contained the requirements for a new, long-range, maritime patrol aircraft for the US Navy. The most important criteria were: more cabin space, a larger radius and a longer endurance then the P-2 Neptune. Furthermore Type Specification No. 146 asked for a short development period and a low cost price per aircraft. This forced aircraft manufacturers to develop the new aircraft as a variant of an existing commercial aircraft. Four aircraft manufacturers responded with a design proposal but Lockheed had the best cards from the beginning. Their design (Model 185) was based on the L-188A Electra which was in development since 1955. The use of the already proven Allison T56-A-10W engines (in use on the C-130 Hercules since 1954) was a big plus: with these turboprops the ideal combination of a high cruise speed for the transit to the operations area and a favourable economical fuel consumption during a low level, low speed mission could be reached. Also Lockheed's experience with Anti Submarine Warfare systems guaranteed success. Finally the development costs and -time were fully in line with Type Specification No. 146.

P-3 Orion Research Group

So we have Lockheed and Grumman and two more yet unknown but they must be derivatives of existing commercial aircraft.

 

[Hood]

Assuming the Martin M-347 referred to above was for TS-146 then that would leave 1 unknown slot.
I would speculate Fairchild or Convair as the other based off likely commercial airliners both were then offering.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

M-367

Greetings All -

I came across this description on Wikipedia:

P5M-3 (Model 313) was revised as P7M-1 Model 313 SubMaster with a single turbojet engine mounted. Mockup built in 1956 and lost out to Lockheed P-3 Orion.

Did Martin submit a landbased and a flying boat to the requirement?

Enjoy the Day! Mark

No, SubMaster was submitted to TS-143 requirement for an ASW flying boat. Different and earlier requirement.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Assuming the Martin M-347 referred to above was for TS-146 then that would leave 1 unknown slot.
I would speculate Fairchild or Convair as the other based off likely commercial airliners both were then offering.

Martin M-347 would presumably be based on the 4-0-4 airliner then - can't think of another suitable airframe.

 

[hesham]

Amazing find my dear Bill,

and excuse me for this question,the RG402 means Grumman G-402 or not ?,and thanks.

 

[aim9xray]

and excuse me for this question,the RG402 means Grumman G-402 or not ?,and thanks.

No, that refers to The NARA (US National Archives and Records Administration) filing system - in this case, Records Group 402.

I believe that our missing "fourth" are the Fairchild M-291/M-394 designs based on the Fokker F-27 which was being license produced by Fairchild. What is puzzling is that the Fairchild M-394/M-394A docs are dated well after the the P3V was selected. My suspicion is that the M-291 was possibly for the TS-146 competition (in 1958) and the further M-394 work was for either:

a) some subsequent requirement (TS-xxx?) for some sort of shore-based S2F-class+ replacement
or
b) unsolicited Fairchild proposals.

 

[hesham]

Great Info my dear Aim9xray.

 

[Bill S]

Fairchild M394A From the front cover of report DP-3 "This report is a part of the Fairchild Model 394 ASW Proposal being submitted to the Chief, Bureau of Weapons. The proposal results in part from this corporation's annual review and analysis of the BuAer 1959 Long Range Research and Development Plan, AIr Weapons Systems, as previously required by BuAer-Aer-363/5 letter of agreement dated 24 March 1959, and as (a) executed by Fairchild Engine and Airplane corp. letter SJMR-450 of 27 Aprl 1959 and (b) forwarded by FEAC SECRET letter SJMR-479 daetd 12 November 1959."

 

[Bill S]

Amazing find my dear Bill,

and excuse me for this question,the RG402 means Grumman G-402 or not ?,and thanks.

Sorry for the confusion, Record Group 402 at the US National Archives College Park, MD

 

[Maveric]

Thx for sharing this famous project, Bill S.
Do you have also some technical data for the M.394?

 

[Bill S]

Do you have also some technical data for the M.394?

The brochure was not well laid out and any technical data was presented like this:



And this:



You might find this page interesting:

 

[Pioneer]

and excuse me for this question,the RG402 means Grumman G-402 or not ?,and thanks.

No, that refers to The NARA (US National Archives and Records Administration) filing system - in this case, Records Group 402.

I believe that our missing "fourth" are the Fairchild M-291/M-394 designs based on the Fokker F-27 which was being license produced by Fairchild. What is puzzling is that the Fairchild M-394/M-394A docs are dated well after the the P3V was selected. My suspicion is that the M-291 was possibly for the TS-146 competition (in 1958) and the further M-394 work was for either:

a) some subsequent requirement (TS-xxx?) for some sort of shore-based S2F-class+ replacement
or
b) unsolicited Fairchild proposals.

Wow, as per usual, thanks for sharing this awesome info Bill S!

This would make an interesting model!!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

Per lack of a better thread... looking for a
P-3C nose-mounted camera called KA-74.
...
Asking that because it was also flown... onboard Apollo 13 ( yes, that one) and Apollo 14.
Called the Lunar Topographic Camera it sat on an astronaut seat and was bolted to the hatch window, looking through it.

 

[Fluff]

Per lack of a better thread... looking for a
P-3C nose-mounted camera called KA-74.
...
Asking that because it was also flown... onboard Apollo 13 ( yes, that one) and Apollo 14.
Called the Lunar Topographic Camera it sat on an astronaut seat and was bolted to the hatch window, looking through it.

The Cameras of Apollo

Anything here?

 

[Fluff]

Apollo 14: Hycon KA-7A camera photo scans - collectSPACE: Messages

Source for space history, space artifacts, and space memorabilia. Learn where astronauts will appear, browse collecting guides, and read original space history-related daily reports.

www.collectspace.com

 

[Archibald]

Thank you ! Note they made a mistake calling it KA-7.