Upgrading Saladin and Saracen instead of CVRT

[uk 75]

Looking at the British Army in the late Cold War period we have a slew of vehicles from wheeled FOX and SAXON to the tracked SCORPIONs and SPARTANs etc. Which made me wonder, if we had simply developed the successful SALADIN and SARACEN wouldnt we have had a better solution?
Wheels vs tracks still being debated.

 

[riggerrob]

Agreed!
Developing 6-wheeled or 8-wheeled armoured cars and APCs would have made more sense.

OTL the FV721 Fox armoured car killed that concept for too many decades. Fox suffered from the same “too many officers” syndrome as the American M2 Bradley (see the film “Pentagon Wars). By trying to build a single vehicle to replace both Ferret(scout car) and Saracen (76 mm cannon), they ended up with a vehicle that was good for neither role. With its 30 mm RARDEN cannon, Fox weighed almost twice as much as Ferret. The two-man turret made it top-heavy and liable to tip over on side slopes.

The British Army would have been wiser to order the FV722 scout car variant with only a small MG turret while developing a seperate 6 or 8-wheeled chassis for APC and gunned armoured car duties.

 

[uk 75]

France in the same period developed a whole family of wheeled fighting vehicles including the mighty AMX10RC tank destroyer

 

[Foo Fighter]

The Ferret did not need any extra top weight, it tipped over quite readily without. The Fox was just a disaster waiting to happen. You need to think about the mission you want the vehicle to fulfill, tracks keep up with tracks much better. IMHO, of course. BTW, I have seen more than one tragic Ferret roll over incident and it is never pretty.

 

[uk 75]

Could we have re-engined and re-built Saladins and Saracens, perhaps with Rarden 30mm on Saladins and improved protection on Saracens. Might have been better than the Saxon!

 

[DanielStarseer]

Is there any amount of credible, in-depth info on that "Pipsqueak" gun (47mm?) ?
Seems that might've been an ideal armament for a vehicle of this size/weight.
Granted, compared to the modern Bushmaster series and (ARES inspired?) CTAI guns,
the Pipsqueak's loading system would probably not have been anything of an improvement over what we saw in the 30mm RARDEN....
But for the day, versus most Warsaw Pact/Eastern APCs and MICVs (at the time), the gun should've proven more than adequate.
Curious then if the cartridge could've evolved as a navalized automatic 40mm Bofors replacement....

Pipsqueak taking the high velocity approach to counter light armor,
in conjunction with a cooperative agreement with France for the (Brandt?) 81mm gun-mortar to provide larger-caliber infantry fire support in a light vehicle,
could've been an interesting what-if counter to the Scimitar and Scorpion we actually got in reality.

 

[Tony Williams]

Is there any amount of credible, in-depth info on that "Pipsqueak" gun (47mm?) ?

Not a lot, but it was 40 mm, not 47 mm. At least one cartridge case exists in a collection, and there's an official drawing of the APDS round for it. See the final photo in this article: http://quarryhs.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

 

[Weaver]

The irony of it is that the Saracen used to get slagged off as irredeemably old-fashioned-looking, and now every fancy MRAP on the market has it's engine out the front in-between two expendable front wheels...

 

[riggerrob]

The irony of it is that the Saracen used to get slagged off as irredeemably old-fashioned-looking, and now every fancy MRAP on the market has it's engine out the front in-between two expendable front wheels...

Funny!
Politicians eventually decided that drivers are more expensive than vehicles.

Modern Mine Resistant Armoured Personnel carriers are designed to crumple while minimizing injuries to passengers.

 

[Purpletrouble]

I don’t think Saladin/Saracen had any kind of protection equivalent to today’s?

if you ever look inside these, they are cramped - no space for ECM or even modern radio suite.

I think they were of their time and had reached their end point. Replacement by tracked was the Army shifting from 50s global low-medium intensity to BAOR high intensity and even then only able to fund one.

That modern 8x8s have massively grown the ability of wheeled doesn’t mean it would have been right to be in the earlier generations trying and failing to do BAOR.

 

[uk 75]

This thread has produced some informative and helpful comments. Thanks everyone.

 

[Fluff]

I don’t think Saladin/Saracen had any kind of protection equivalent to today’s?

if you ever look inside these, they are cramped - no space for ECM or even modern radio suite.

I think they were of their time and had reached their end point. Replacement by tracked was the Army shifting from 50s global low-medium intensity to BAOR high intensity and even then only able to fund one.

That modern 8x8s have massively grown the ability of wheeled doesn’t mean it would have been right to be in the earlier generations trying and failing to do BAOR.

Saladin etc, were designed to run with ‘any 2 wheels’ destroyed, by mines. So some thought was put in, and as their predecessor was presumably the Bren carrier, they were probably a big improvement, in their time. Not sure fv432 was any particular improvement in this regard.

Saracen etc hung around for a good while, Northern Ireland etc, and I think we had a few Saladin in the late 80’s for airfield Defense, then replaced by scimitars. Also reputedly the Kuwaiti Saladin tookout a couple of t55 at the start-of GW1.

 

[Purpletrouble]

FV432 tracked and by comparison - spacious. Look at all the variants, you just couldn’t have done that on the 6x6.
Wheels off - but what size mine?
Sal/Sar still not on tracked mobility and as we see with current gen, it has taken 8x8 to compete (effectively).
Airfield defence is a misnomer? From people who were in it, the Scimitars were for dealing expediently with UXO from attacks. Basic anti frag protection and a gun with enough range to standoff and penetrate. Saladdins presumably in lieu of anything else.

 

[uk 75]

I think that the original suggestion by me was that like France the UK could have had a wheeled (refurbed Sal/Scn orvnew build) instead if the Scorpion CVRT and Saxon wheeled equip for BAOR. FV432 was a separate vehicle already in service.

 

[Purpletrouble]

Why?
BAOR was what the Army wanted to do and that demanded tracks with the tech if the time. CVRT variants were far better suited than Saracen/Saladin for BAOR recce and support, and still airportable.

Unless the UK retains low level colonial policing aka being France then wheeled really has little place. Even now the armoured recce role (incl. joint fires, engineer, overwatch and fitter/recovery) is tracked and in fact has grown akin to an IFV.

 

[uk 75]

Think you answered fine. Thought it was worth a punt.

 

[Andrei_bt]

Is there any amount of credible, in-depth info on that "Pipsqueak" gun (47mm?) ?

Not a lot, but it was 40 mm, not 47 mm. At least one cartridge case exists in a collection, and there's an official drawing of the APDS round for it. See the final photo in this article: http://quarryhs.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

Any information if it was automatic?

 

[Foo Fighter]

The yeomanry kept Saladin for quite some time, into the late 80's at least and they were extremely good. They kept those battered and OLD hulls running like clockwork and I'm chuffed to have seen them in action. A 76mm gun with a short barrel would have been at a disadvantage but as we have seen through history, motivated and well trained teams can wreak havoc on supposedly superior units. Could they have been upgraded? I think yes and a low overall outlay too but hindsight is 20:20 and we do not always get what we think we should. No doubt had these vehicles gone up against Spetsnatz fire teams attacking an airbase we would be wondering why they were not replaced earlier. Fickle thing history.

 

[GK Dundas]

I don’t think Saladin/Saracen had any kind of protection equivalent to today’s?

if you ever look inside these, they are cramped - no space for ECM or even modern radio suite.

I think they were of their time and had reached their end point. Replacement by tracked was the Army shifting from 50s global low-medium intensity to BAOR high intensity and even then only able to fund one.

That modern 8x8s have massively grown the ability of wheeled doesn’t mean it would have been right to be in the earlier generations trying and failing to do BAOR.

Saladin etc, were designed to run with ‘any 2 wheels’ destroyed, by mines. So some thought was put in, and as their predecessor was presumably the Bren carrier, they were probably a big improvement, in their time. Not sure fv432 was any particular improvement in this regard.

Saracen etc hung around for a good while, Northern Ireland etc, and I think we had a few Saladin in the late 80’s for airfield Defense, then replaced by scimitars. Also reputedly the Kuwaiti Saladin tookout a couple of t55 at the start-of GW1.

The L 23 will kill any of T- 54/55 family probably kill most T -62s and some very early T 72s. It really is amazing what you can do with HESH .

 

[Tony Williams]

Is there any amount of credible, in-depth info on that "Pipsqueak" gun (47mm?) ?

Not a lot, but it was 40 mm, not 47 mm. At least one cartridge case exists in a collection, and there's an official drawing of the APDS round for it. See the final photo in this article: http://quarryhs.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

Any information if it was automatic?

I haven't seen any evidence about that, but I would be very surprised if it was automatic - the great length of the cartridge would have required a very long action, probably too big for the turret.

 

[Stovepipe]

Wasn't there an issue with 6 wheeled cars like the Saracen and Saladin that, they would suffer a condition known as "wind-up" at certain speeds on metalled roads, whereby the higher roadspeed would overcome the gearbox speed and cause a problem? Operation on rough ground wasn't a problem because each wheel has a slightly different speed. Apart from that, I always thought that they were two very good vehicles that were never fully developed to their truest potential. A Saladin with a 90mm gun and a modern diesel would be nice.

 

[Hood]

The Kuwaiti Saladins saw action during the Iraqi invasion in 1990.
No idea how effective they were though.

 

[Stovepipe]

A Scorpion with a modern belt fed 30mm, modern optics and increased in size by about 10%.

 

[BB1984]

Wasn't there an issue with 6 wheeled cars like the Saracen and Saladin that, they would suffer a condition known as "wind-up" at certain speeds on metalled roads, whereby the higher roadspeed would overcome the gearbox speed and cause a problem? Operation on rough ground wasn't a problem because each wheel has a slightly different speed. Apart from that, I always thought that they were two very good vehicles that were never fully developed to their truest potential. A Saladin with a 90mm gun and a modern diesel would be nice.

Wind-up had to do with the drive train on the Saladin/Saracen/Stalwart in particular, it isn't a characteristic of six wheel armored cars. The wikipedia entry for the Stalwart gives a good explanation, though the same information is curiously missing from the Saladin and Saracen pages.

As for "what ifs", I feel somewhat similarly over the US's hasty drop of the M38 Wolfhound design after WWII, also a 6x6 design. It could have easily been brought into service with a 20mm gun and also carried a medium velocity 75mm gun in a support variant (one test rig had an M24 turret), much in the style of the German 8x8 vehicles (the M38 won its design competition vs. an 8x6 approach that was very reminiscent of the German designs). That might have kept the US in the 6x6 and 8x8 game.

 

[Andrei_bt]

I don’t think Saladin/Saracen had any kind of protection equivalent to today’s?

if you ever look inside these, they are cramped - no space for ECM or even modern radio suite.

I think they were of their time and had reached their end point. Replacement by tracked was the Army shifting from 50s global low-medium intensity to BAOR high intensity and even then only able to fund one.

That modern 8x8s have massively grown the ability of wheeled doesn’t mean it would have been right to be in the earlier generations trying and failing to do BAOR.

Saladin etc, were designed to run with ‘any 2 wheels’ destroyed, by mines. So some thought was put in, and as their predecessor was presumably the Bren carrier, they were probably a big improvement, in their time. Not sure fv432 was any particular improvement in this regard.

Saracen etc hung around for a good while, Northern Ireland etc, and I think we had a few Saladin in the late 80’s for airfield Defense, then replaced by scimitars. Also reputedly the Kuwaiti Saladin tookout a couple of t55 at the start-of GW1.

The L 23 will kill any of T- 54/55 family probably kill most T -62s and some very early T 72s. It really is amazing what you can do with HESH .

How can it, if it has less than 80 mm effectivenes vs RHA?

 

[GK Dundas]

I have seen after action photos of various AFVs hit by L 23 rounds .
A couple of factors come into play here .
You're not going to generate an outright kill with either a mantlet or glacis plate . You may however get a mission kill by destroying the optics or injuring the driver.
There's a damn good good chance of killing a T 54 many years ago I saw a photo of one knocked out by a 76 mm L 23 . I'm pretty sure that it was turret hit .
Another thought as well,although the Russians produce some of the world's finest metallurgists and engineer's. It doesn't always make its way to the factory floor or the field.
It's at times like this I really wonder just what the moving company did with my file cabinet and that part of my library
I suspect Tony Williams could shed far more light on this then I can.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Wasn't there an issue with 6 wheeled cars like the Saracen and Saladin that, they would suffer a condition known as "wind-up" at certain speeds on metalled roads, whereby the higher roadspeed would overcome the gearbox speed and cause a problem? Operation on rough ground wasn't a problem because each wheel has a slightly different speed. Apart from that, I always thought that they were two very good vehicles that were never fully developed to their truest potential. A Saladin with a 90mm gun and a modern diesel would be nice.

Yes, there was, and it was a serious issue with these vehicles. At one time, there were several videos on the Alvis Stalwart (same drivetrain) that explained this issue in detail along with other issues with these vehicles, but I can't find them atm.

Found it

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TDLqSiu9AE

 

[BB1984]

I have seen after action photos of various AFVs hit by L 23 rounds .
A couple of factors come into play here .
You're not going to generate an outright kill with either a mantlet or glacis plate . You may however get a mission kill by destroying the optics or injuring the driver.
There's a damn good good chance of killing a T 54 many years ago I saw a photo of one knocked out by a 76 mm L 23 . I'm pretty sure that it was turret hit .
Another thought as well,although the Russians produce some of the world's finest metallurgists and engineer's. It doesn't always make its way to the factory floor or the field.
It's at times like this I really wonder just what the moving company did with my file cabinet and that part of my library
I suspect Tony Williams could shed far more light on this then I can.

Being able to kill a T-54 and being able to reliably kill a T-54 can be two different things.

For instance the DEFA 921 (as used on the AML90) had a penetration of 320mm (or 120mm of armor at 60°) so theoretically capable vs. the T-54/55 frontally, but the actual South African experience, using the same weapon on the Ratel 90 was "The 61 and 62 Mechanized Infantry Battalion Groups found that each enemy Soviet tank required multiple shots from their 90 mm guns to disable them, and that the Ratels had to attack in groups, fire from point-blank range, and hit the tanks in the engine vents, turret rim or similar weak points in order to have an effect."

So the South Africans could certainly show you pictures of T-54 killed by 90mm HEAT, and the "on paper" gun/ammunition performance says it's possible, but that doesn't mean the gun was well suited for the task.

Certainly 90mm HEAT is a different animal than 76mm HESH, but I would wonder how reliable the spalling effect of HESH is with a comparatively small caliber and the variety of storage boxes, track guards, tow cables, grab handles and other paraphernalia on the outside of modern tank.

 

[JohnR]

With regard to the earlier post re-upgrading the Saracen, I have read in a book; I can't remember which book, might have been a Janes book on recon vehicles, that there where proposals to fit the turret of the Scimitar or Fox onto the Saracens hull. Can't remember if there were proposal's to re-engine it.

Regards.

 

[DanielStarseer]

A Scorpion with a modern belt fed 30mm, modern optics and increased in size by about 10%.

Someone actually DID think of that, 25 years ago... https://www.army-technology.com/projects/stormer30/

Army Guide

Army Guide - information about the main battle tanks, armoured vehicles and armament of the land forces and also the information concerning other army subjects - Stormer 30, Reconnaissance Vehicle, Armoured Vehicles

www.army-guide.com

I imagine it would've taken quite well to the upgraded Super 40 version of the (now MK44) 30mm Bushmaster gun. The CTA 40, with its feed mechanism, would take some considerable turret rework, if not an altogether new turret design.

The real juice would be mounting a Bushmaster in 50mm, judging by the size of turrets it's been tested in recently.

 

[riggerrob]

What if a British embargo prevents a Third World nation from buying new-production Scorpions, so they contract with a Second World nation (Israel or South Africa) to do massive upgrades to their old Saladin hulls.
Another scenario includes crippling import duties on new-production vehicles, but only tiny taxes on "repair parts."
Or perhaps Alvis refuses to bribe the right Third World general ...

 

[GK Dundas]

Who needs an embargo on a third world nation . Alvis did it to Canada .
Kept telling Our Government that there were delays first it was manufacturing then problems in shipping..
Then lo and behold the British Government puts an arms embargo on Iran.
Suddenly the Workshop on Montreal starts getting crates of Scorpion turret spares. All with Farsi shipping and storage instructions barely covered by the overpaint.
The Iranians apparently were paying more then we were.

 

[Foo Fighter]

In this TL, what is the scope for change? Like any AFV you could replace the engine and drivetrain, reduce the shunt etc. Even keeping the original turret you can change the gun. Add on armour package with improved coms, possibly even a secure sat system and local network for AH and drone monitoring. It would be very expensive though.