Type 23, Development & Variants

[RP1]

A thread to discuss Type 23 variants (Originally European / UK AAW projects that arose after the split in the Horizon project (I thought there already was a thread on this, but I couldn't find it), but changed to reflect actual content).

Firstly, the "stretched" Type 23 proposed by Yarrow in 1990.

(Source: Not sure, I scanned it in a year ago. The anchor icon and overall layout makes me think it was RINA's "Warship Technology", back when it was an insert in The Naval Architect).

Editorial:

I will go on record right now as saying that the "eyebrow of healthy skepticism" is raised over this design - the length / depth ratio is "a bit" higher than one would like - and the split VLS will only increase the bending moment.

RP1

 

[M. A. Rozon]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;D : B)

Having heard of this before, I had little or no info. Again, thanks.

 

[TinWing]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

I will go on record right now as saying that the "eyebrow of healthy skepticism" is raised over this design - the length / depth ratio is "a bit" higher than one would like - and the split VLS will only increase the bending moment.

It looks like a lot of topweight, which would seem to necessitate a fair amount of ballast, hence the depth.

I would also think that the final full load displacement would have been substantially more than the listed figure?

I also have to wonder about adding so many short splices to the hull. Obviously, the opposite approach was taken with the Type 42 Batch 3s, with obvious consequences?

 

[Thorvic]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

Didnt they look at a fitting the aft VLS launchers for Sea wolf and a CIWS as an improved stretched Type 23 for some of the later ships in the batch ?

G

 

[JohnR]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;D : B)

Having heard of this before, I had little or no info. Again, thanks.

May I add my thanks. FAAAAAAB!!!!!!!!!!!!

What was the planned radar fit, is the array on top of the foremast a predecessor to Sampson?

I like the concept of the missile silo's either side of the hangar. I would hope that the designers had learned from the mistakes of the T42/3 and provided enough additional hull strength.

What about an increase in the beam that would help top weight without increasing draft? This was done to the Type 42/3.

Didnt they look at a fitting the aft VLS launchers for Sea wolf and a CIWS as an improved stretched Type 23 for some of the later ships in the batch ?

G

I also recall reading; I believe in Strategy and Defence -a long time ago so I am not sure, that there were plans to insert a Sea Wolf VLS in the "cut out" on the stbd side of the hangar. I also seem to recall a proposal for fitting an additional Spey??? But again it's a dark and murk memory which may not be that accurate.

 

[RP1]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

<London accent> "You lucky, lucky people!" </London accent>

Failing to complete the Evening Standard crossword clearly motivated my brain, since I remembered where I put this and scanned it.

(Included in this thread because it directly mentions the AAW version - note the reference to both NAAWS (ESSM) and FAMS (ASTER).

Source: "Yarrow Shipbuilders Limited Type 23 Frigate", a special supplement of Naval Forces, No. III / 1989, Vol. X

RP1

 

[RP1]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

is the array on top of the foremast a predecessor to Sampson?

Yes - Sampson used to have a prismatic masthead structure, being changed to a spherical version some point in the late 1990's.

I would hope that the designers had learned from the mistakes of the T42/3 and provided enough additional hull strength.

This is the source of my concerns - the length / depth ratio for this design is very high, and additional structure would almost certainly be required, possibly in the external form used on the later Type 42's.

RP1

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Re: Post-Horizon AAW Projects

This thread would appear to be more Type 23 variants than Post Horizon AAW... Which leads me to ask does anyone have any information on the Type 23 variant that was shortlisted for the joint RAN RNZAN ANZAC frigate project. This was supposed to have been a "scaled down" Type 23 andwas selected alongside the B+V MEKO 200 and Royal Schelde M Class in August `1987 but dropped from the shortlist in November.

 

[RP1]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

does anyone have any information on the Type 23 variant that was shortlisted for the joint RAN RNZAN ANZAC frigate project. This was supposed to have been a "scaled down" Type 23 andwas selected alongside the B+V MEKO 200 and Royal Schelde M Class in August `1987 but dropped from the shortlist in November.

Maybe. The YSL publication describes several variants, but not who they may have been developed for.

RP1

 

[JohnR]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

Once again thank you!!!!

Just a quickie question from the text of your scan, didn't the Deadeye laser guided round die.
Sorry trying to wax poetical.

Regards.

 

[RP1]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

didn't the Deadeye laser guided round die.

Yes:

From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1993/MCT.htm

The 5-inch semi-active laser guided
projectile (SALGP), named Deadeye, successfully completed
operational testing at sea and was approved for fleet use in
1982.9 The round has a combination high explosive/conical shape
charge warhead allowing it to penetrate approximately 27 inches
of rolled homogeneous armor or the equivalent of a T54-type tank;
and it is highly accurate with laser designation giving the round
a 2 meter CEP.10 Deadeye is a rocket assisted projectile (RAP),
which increases 5-inch gun range to 15 NM.11 The 5-inch SALGP
round was designed using an earlier 5-inch infra-red guided
projectile body that optimized flight in an anti-air warfare
role. However, if the 5-inch SALGP body is redesigned to
aerodynamically optimize surface to surface flight, the range can
be increased to 30 NM, and the addition of Global Positioning
System (GPS) guidance would yield a 16 meter CEP independent of
laser designation.12 The Deadeye fell victim to budgetary cuts
in FY 1989, and was not funded for production.13 Re-introduction
of the Deadeye program and its redesign would be the most rapid
route to give the fleet a highly accurate shipboard hard-target
kill capability.

RP1

 

[JohnR]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

Thought so, thanks RP1.

The last comment of the text is quite interesting and I wonder if it would still apply.

Regards.

 

[nova10]

Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

Does anyone have any pictures of the Type 23 frigate design before the Falklands. Apparently it had no hanger, no SSMs, no VL Seawolf and was armed only with a 76mm gun and two torpedo tubes. Quite a different ship to the one the Royal Navy finally received.

 

[RP1]

Re: Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

Yes, I have a set of 3 profile views showing the development of the design from a basic towed-array "tug" to something close to the final design. I also have a profile of one of the Type 25 designs. I will dig them out from my home PC and edit this post accordingly to-morrow.

RP1

 

[nova10]

Re: Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

Many thanks RP1!

 

[RP1]

Re: Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

OK, so I made a new post rather than editing the last.

The development of the Type 23 both from the overall ship design perspective and details such as hullform parameterisation and design, machinery, materials selection etc, has been quite well documented in published papers and is used as an example in the MSc courses in Naval Architecture at UCL (the modern day version of the RCNC NA course).

Three files are attached:

pre_type_23_design.png

Labeled as "Original Type 23" in reference [1], but is similar in some respects to "Another, cut-price study on the way to the Type 23" in [2]. Note 76mm fwd with some kind of tracker over the bridge. An off-the-shelf surveillance radar (I forget the type, but it was used in other studies of the period), and SCOTT abeam of the mast. What appear to be (Sea Gnat) decoy launchers amidships with STWS (not MTLS) and a flight deck only for SKR (EH-101 Merlin).

type_23_evolution.png
late_type_23_design.png

Both of these are from reference [3].

Note change from SSGW only on the 100m design (with STWS amidships and decoys only for AAW?) though a "single headed" Sea Wolf system with SCG on the bridge wings, MTLS and a hangar to the final design. The artists impression is interesting in that it retains the 76mm gun, which seems to originally have been an option on the low cost studies before being deleted, then put back as the design grew after the Falklands lessons were incorporated before being replaced by the 4.5 inch Mk 8 at the last minute.

RP1

References:

[1] Easton, RWS: "The Modern Anti-submarine Frigate", Proc. of Warhip 87: Int. Symp. on Anti-Submarine Warfare, 11-13 May 1987 ,London: RINA
[2] Brown, D K & Moore, G: "Rebuilding the Royal Navy", London: Chatham Publishing, 2003
[3] Bryson, L: "The Procurement of a Warship", Trans. RINA, Vol.127, London: RINA, 1985

 

[Hood]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

'Ships of the World's Navies' by Christopher Chant, 1990, offers some glimpses at these lengthened variants above but the details don't quite gel.
He states, "there was the strong possibility that the third batch of four ships would be lengthened by 23ft (7m) to allow one or two Goalkeeper CIWS mountings to be carried on each ship, but in 1989 it was revealed that such would not be the case."
He goes on to say that later in 1989 the RN was considering an enhanced 'Duke' with a 32.8ft (10m) longer hull, missile capacity increased to 48 (40 forward and 8 aft) and two Goalkeeper CIWS. He then says that even further into the future there might be an anti-air optimised variant. Would this be the genesis of the Type 45?

 

[RP1]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

Would this be the genesis of the Type 45?

More specifically, it would be one of the 8 or 9 separate projects for a new AAW destroyer that occurred between T42 and T45. T45 has very little derived from T23.


RP1

 

[JFC Fuller]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

Warship 1990 explicitly states that the order that took the T23 programme to 10 hulls (Westminster, Northumberland and Richmond- ordered from Swan Hunter in 1989) would not consist of stretched units, this implies that at one point and extended hull was at least under consideration. The stretched versions would have taken the T23 closer to the weapons capability of the T22 Batch III which did later get Goalkeeper.

 

[thebig C]

Re: Type 23 Variants (RENAMED: Was Post-Horizon AAW Projects)

Excellent info regarding the enhansed Typr 23s!
Weren't there also a "shipload" of downgraded export variants?!

C

 

[thebig C]

Re: Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

Scroll down to the bottom of the first page of this link:
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/1378/FUTURE-OPERATING-PATTERNS

There a couple of very good illustrations of the early examples of the T23 Frigate.

C

 

[JFC Fuller]

Re: Pre-Falklands Type 23 frigate

Excellent Journal of Naval Engineering Article on Type 23 development and how/why various bits of capability were added and some of the reasons for certain design choices (e.g. SSGW launcher locations).

Also, could we merger this thread with this one: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7858.0.html

Indeed ! Topics merged, thank you !

 

[Hood]

Reading through Combat Fleets of the World 1988/89, it states that HMS Argyll (F232) had been offered to Pakistan along with a plan to build two ships in Karachi. Does anyone know anymore about this proposal?

 

[TomS]

Reading through Combat Fleets of the World 1988/89, it states that HMS Argyll (F232) had been offered to Pakistan along with a plan to build two ships in Karachi. Does anyone know anymore about this proposal?

Not much. It seems to have followed a scheme to build a trio of improved Type 21s for Pakistan (2 in the UK, one in Pakistan). In the event, the PN ended up with some ex-RN Leanders and a bunch of ex-USN frigates instead.

No Easy Answers

This is a book about navies and about navies working with very limited resources in less than ideal circumstances.

www.google.com

 

[TomS]

Apparently Turkey is looking at the ex-RN Type 23s as a gap-filler, possibly to cover slower than expected domestic construction.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-uk-type-frigates-purchase-talks

Would be interesting to see what modernization Turkey would implement. Are the available surplus T23s still Sea Wolf ships or have they already received CAMM?

 

[TinWing]

Forecast International report on Type 45 with interesting pre-Horizon Giant Type 23 derivative

Basically, before Horizon the RN had a Type 23 derivative in mind that was 175 meters long, 7,200 tons light displacement, 8,600 tons standard, so almost certainly well over 10,000 tons full load. It appears it also had 110,000 hp (quadruple Speys) for 33 knots and two VLS silos for Aster(?) and also well as Seawolf with Type 911 trackers. Not sure if Seawolf was VLS but Lightweight Seawolf was then current and was to be fitted to the 3 Invincibles and 4 Batch Type 42. Overall this immediate pre-Horizon concept sounds like a return to the Type 43 in scale.

It also lends some credence to that old double ended Type 23 cruiser drawing that was floating around the internet about 25 years ago. I’m not saying it was official or to scale, just that there was possibly an element of official inspiration. The big ship described might have had the designation of Type 84, which would indicate more of a multi-role cruiser than just an oversized Type 42 replacement.

Apparently, during subsequent British involvement in Horizon, there was an unspecified T23R (Next-plus-one) concept for service entry in 2010. It sounds as if this wasn’t dedicated AAW type. No other details provided.

 

[Purpletrouble]

Forecast International report on Type 45 with interesting pre-Horizon Giant Type 23 derivative

Basically, before Horizon the RN had a Type 23 derivative in mind that was 175 meters long, 7,200 tons light displacement, 8,600 tons standard, so almost certainly well over 10,000 tons full load. It appears it also had 110,000 hp (quadruple Speys) for 33 knots and two VLS silos for Aster(?) and also well as Seawolf with Type 911 trackers. Not sure if Seawolf was VLS but Lightweight Seawolf was then current and was to be fitted the 3 Invincibles and 4 Batch Type 42. Overall this immediate pre-Horizon concept sounds like a return to the Type 43 in scale.

It also lends some credence to that old double ended Type 23 cruiser drawing that was floating around the internet about 25 years ago. I’m not saying it was official or to scale, just that there was possibly an element of official inspiration. The big ship described might have had the designation of Type 84, which would indicate more of a multi-role cruiser than just an oversized Type 42 replacement.

Apparently, during subsequent British involvement in Horizon, there was an unspecified T23R (Next-plus-one) concept for service entry in 2010. It sounds as if this wasn’t dedicated AAW type. No other details provided.

Veey interesting article on the background.

It’s a pretty sorry story of faff, delay and poor decision making. So many decisions made for the wrong reasons and so long to make them.

Noting the ships have now been out of action fir extended periods to correct their flawed propulsion and power system. Only now are (might?) they getting the shorter range missile system clearly envisaged at the outset.

 

[Tzoli]

You mean this drawing? :

 

[zen]

So...
We have Type 23 adapted for AAW.
Then Type 43 Redux at 7,200tons Standard Displacement.

Followed by what sounds like Type 44 Redux....At 6,400rons Standard Displacement.

Then this becomes Type 84....suggesting a genuine British Arleigh Burke combining Type 23 ASW with AAW.

Then suspicions of a Type 23R backup to Horizon.

Yet Type 45 seems more Horizon than anything else.

We have TRISAR a.k.a Samson rarher thsn being called MESAR....

What do we know of VSRAAD ? The successor to Sea Wolf expected to be more capable of handling hypersonic missiles?

 

[TomS]

What do we know of VSRAAD ? The successor to Sea Wolf expected to be more capable of handling hypersonic missiles?

I was going to say that VSRAAD was navalized Starstreak, but on further examination, it's probably not that simple.

Friedman mentions in his 1989 World Naval Weapons that in 1986 Shorts got a contract to study Starstreak for naval use under VSRAD 2000. (Note the missing A. Not clear if this a Friedman error or a slightly different initialism.)

By the 1997 edition, he notes that in 1994, the MoD was soliciting for a new Inner-Layer Defense System that was supposed to be non-developmental and less "stringent" than VSRAAD (that second A appears), There were many proposals for ILDS, including a navalized ASRAAM, Sadral, Crotale NG, and two variations on Starburst/Starstreak, as well as guns (35mm Millenium, Myriad, Goalkeeper, and 76mm Compact), and at least one hybrid system (SIGMA, which was DS30 with MANPADS bolted on). Nothing was adopted but it probably led to CAMM.

 

[TomS]

Ah, I think the actual acronym was VSRAD. We have a short thread here:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/naval-shorads.6477/

 

[Purpletrouble]

Then this becomes Type 84....suggesting a genuine British Arleigh Burke combining Type 23 ASW with AAW.

T84 is a curious one, what was 83 then?

An earlier large ship? 70/80s project? I’ve never heard of either of these or seen them in any works, although arguably quite recent so records may not have been released?

What was interesting was that it was only the delay to Horizon that seemed to usher in Sampson, with Empar noted as Anglo-Italian. Despite Sampson apparantly being heritfae of earlier MESAR 1&2 and you’d think, closer to being available.

 

[gollevainen]

This forecast international article if indeed fascinating as the is not much comprehensive info on the Anglo French Future Frigate/CNGF/Horizon program available despite it being the genesis of major surface combatant classes of three big European navies. Specially the early A3F phase is hard to get info on.

I know this is venturing offtopic (Mods can decide wheter to move this or allow it here) but I'm wondering wheter this artist impression is the mentioned 6,000t "if we dont get the big one, lets use this" version of the British preliminary project that envolved into the CNGF baseline?

Also could this French frigate proposal be the "5,500t La Fayette derivation"- French submission for A3F that is erroneously described as Horizon variant?

 

[TinWing]

You mean this drawing? :
View attachment 728351

Yes. That drawing has some odd details and depicts a ship that is much longer than 175 meters. As far as odd, has a ship ever launched a hovercraft from davits? All the same, the 8600 ton Type 23 derivative would have had dual VLS silos, dual engine rooms for the 4 Spey and a 155mm naval gun was contemporary with the thinking of the time. Obviously it’s hand drawn and the Merlin helicopter is amateurish, although early official profile drawings of the Type 23 also botched the EH-101.

 

[TinWing]

This forecast international article if indeed fascinating as the is not much comprehensive info on the Anglo French Future Frigate/CNGF/Horizon program available despite it being the genesis of major surface combatant classes of three big European navies. Specially the early A3F phase is hard to get info on.

I know this is venturing offtopic (Mods can decide wheter to move this or allow it here) but I'm wondering wheter this artist impression is the mentioned 6,000t "if we dont get the big one, lets use this" version of the British preliminary project that envolved into the CNGF baseline?

Also could this French frigate proposal be the "5,500t La Fayette derivation"- French submission for A3F that is erroneously described as Horizon variant?

The single superstructure block French depiction of CNGF does look a bit like an upscaled La Fayette. The small exhaust uptakes would seem to indicate CODAD propulsion, another French preference dating back to NFR-90. Considering the modest operational speed of the CdeG carrier, a quartet of 5,500 ton AAW destroyers would have made a lot of sense at the time. As it is, it’s not much of a metaphorical “stretch” from the Saudi AAW variant of the LaFayette to this slightly larger and presumably beamier ship with uprated diesels. In the actual event, the French only conceded to CODOG propulsion because the Italians had a production license for the LM2500. The eventual Forbin duo appear to have been dramatically less problematic than the Type 45s. Fitted with Sampson, a Franco-Italian lead CNGF would have been a lot cheaper and more satisfactory than what the RN actually got, with less of a pressing need for a Type 83 replacement. Substituting Speys would have been simple enough. A 12 hull buy was probably always overoptimistic, though. If a 1:1 replacement for the T42s was going to happen, the requirements would have had to have been relaxed. No reinventing the wheel with S1850M and a single faced equivalent to Sampson. Actually, there was nothing particularly wrong with EMPAR or SMART-L to begin with except for a political imperative to support a domestic UK workforce and produce slightly superior alternatives with zero export potential.

 

[gollevainen]

Yeah from hindsight all those attempts to create common warship to all european navies seemed to bee doomed one, but you cannot discredit them from lack of trying!

 

[Hood]

but I'm wondering wheter this artist impression is the mentioned 6,000t "if we dont get the big one, lets use this" version of the British preliminary project that envolved into the CNGF baseline?

Yes the 1993 image seems to be the enlarged T23 based developments that the Forecast International site references.

You mean this drawing? :

The origins of this drawing are sketchy, it certainly appeared on the internet in the 2000s, Stefano labelled it "LitCruiser (Littoral Cruiser)" but we don't know where it came from, interestingly the version on Stefano's site shows no EH101 aft and has a pair of Sea Wolf launchers amidships missing on the version you posted. Given its peculiar features and it has always been described as a what-if "fake". I am still inclined to favour that explanation.


Actually the Forecast site has a lot of archived reports and many of them are quite detailed and interesting, including several cancelled projects.

FORECAST INTERNATIONAL REPORT ARCHIVES

Forecast International provides Market Research, Market Analysis, Intelligence and Consulting for the Aerospace / Aviation, Defense, Power Systems and Defense Electronics industries and is renowned for its unbiased approach to its research.

www.forecastinternational.com

 

[Tzoli]

Yeah I've seen both versions, their origins a mistery but having they are blue background drawings might indicate a real blueprint being modified.

 

[Hood]

In 1994 the RN looked at building two of the last batch of T23s (or another pair) as AAW ships as interim fillers as CNGF dragged on and was delayed.
The changes were minimal, designed to be implemented in a short time and basically involved adding Type 1022, JTIDS and AAW command facilities. The hangar would only accommodate one Lynx, but Merlin could still land on the helipad. ASW capability was retained, no change to the Sea Wolf GWS.26, apart from resited directors.

There were three preliminary study options.

 

[RP1]

Yes the 1993 image seems to be the enlarged T23 based developments that the Forecast International site references.


The origins of this drawing are sketchy, it certainly appeared on the internet in the 2000s, Stefano labelled it "LitCruiser (Littoral Cruiser)" but we don't know where it came from, interestingly the version on Stefano's site shows no EH101 aft and has a pair of Sea Wolf launchers amidships missing on the version you posted. Given its peculiar features and it has always been described as a what-if "fake". I am still inclined to favour that explanation.
View attachment 728527

Actually the Forecast site has a lot of archived reports and many of them are quite detailed and interesting, including several cancelled projects.

FORECAST INTERNATIONAL REPORT ARCHIVES

Forecast International provides Market Research, Market Analysis, Intelligence and Consulting for the Aerospace / Aviation, Defense, Power Systems and Defense Electronics industries and is renowned for its unbiased approach to its research.

www.forecastinternational.com

IIRC this was drawn by Peter Parkinson (Ex-RN) on the Warships1 board?