Towards the One-Eleven - Hunting Aircraft & BAC projects
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joncarrfarrelly
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Perhaps the Bristol 205 as originally proposed with two BE58 engines. The later iteration had four Bristol Orpheus, BE61 or RB140 engines.
'Stuck On The Drawing Board' has a 3-view of the four engine configuration on page 192 and a project description on page 193.
Cheers, Jon
'Stuck On The Drawing Board' has a 3-view of the four engine configuration on page 192 and a project description on page 193.
Cheers, Jon
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It is the BAC 107.
Source: What if > Forum > Hot Research Topics > Alternative History > British airliner projects, 1960's
Source: What if > Forum > Hot Research Topics > Alternative History > British airliner projects, 1960's
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As there doesn't seem to be a topic devoted to the genesis of the One-Eleven, here is the story of how the One-Eleven came about as told in a very interesting Flight International article dated Aug 10, 1961.
The British Aircraft Corporation had many questions to resolve before it settled for the One-Eleven. Market surveys were done, as of course they must always be done. While market research may confirm what should not be built, it cannot decide what should be built; it is no more than an aid to management in making the final judgment—the irrevocable judgment that commits a company and everything for which it stands to a new aeroplane. Obviously, BAC's new jet could not overlap the market covered by the VC10. For a long time—from 1959 until early in 1960—project work was concentrated on the VC11, a machine of about 170,0001b and 130 seats designed for the 1,000-2,500 range-band.
Based on the Rolls-Royce Spey (four off) it seemed to appeal to the market, particularly to TCA. But political events at home posed other questions, the answers to which could not be narrowed down by market surveys. The British aircraft industry was being reshaped, and as a candidate for Government support the British Aircraft Corporation's VC11 found itself competing with the de Havilland Trident—or, more precisely, with projected developments of that aircraft. Though this did not itself cause the VC11 to be withdrawn, it was undoubtedly a contributory cause, as was the foothold gained in Europe by the competing Boeing 727, chosen by Lufthansa.
The same domestic events that brought the VC11, rightly or wrongly, into political conflict with the Trident also brought the Hunting H.107 project into the British Aircraft Corporation. Vickers and Hunting, now part of the same family, together breathed new life into this project, concentrating BAC thoughts on the development of a true jet successor to the Viscount. Influence of the 107 project on these thoughts was considerable, and it is appropriate to trace the evolution of the One-Eleven back to the beginnings of the 107.
Hunting's first 107 design study was completed in May 1956. The Bristol Orpheus was, at that time, the only suitable engine available. Serious design work began in November 1957, a mockup was built at Luton, and low-speed wind tunnel tests were completed. In September 1958 it was realized that turbofan engines then being developed would offer more attractive economics and the 107 was redesigned around two Bristol Siddeley BS.75s. At this stage it was a 48-seater with a range of up to 1,000 miles.
Early in 1960 a report on the Hunting 107 was prepared for the board of Vickers-Armstrongs (Aircraft) Ltd by the Vickers civil aircraft development group. This was shortly after the announcement of the forthcoming integration of Bristol, English Electric and Vickers as the British Aircraft Corporation (January 1960), and BAC's subsequent acquisition of the controlling interest in Hunting Aircraft. In May 1960 a team from Hunting led by the managing director, Mr Arthur Summers, visited Weybridge; a presentation of the 107 was made to a Vickers team headed by Sir George Edwards. From this moment the project went forward as a joint Hunting-Vickers effort.
At mid-1960 it appeared that the best hopes for converting the 107 from a project into a firm production aircraft lay in developing it initially as a Valetta/Varsity replacement for the RAF. It was suggested that, in the interests of rapid development, the 107 would be introduced with Orpheus engines and subsequently produced in the more economic BS.75 version. A proposal on these lines to the Government did not meet with a positive reaction, and the project was therefore continued as a civil transport aircraft with BS.75 engines. During this period it was decided to widen the fuselage to accommodate five-abreast seating, as in the Viscount, instead of four as in the original Hunting design, and the position of the tailplane was moved from the middle to the top of the fin.
In August 1960 there was a further presentation at Weybridge at which features of the project in revised form were set out before members of the sales and technical sales departments of Bristol, Hunting and Vickers. This was immediately followed by exploratory sales visits to major airlines all over the world. These visits were made by a number of British Aircraft Corporation teams and had two main objects: (1) to assess the airlines' interest in a twin-jet airliner in the Viscount/Convair size bracket, and (2) to obtain airline reaction to the engineering and operational features of the aeroplane. Details of the 107 as presented to the airlines were publicly revealed at the SBAC Show in September 1960.
Reactions to the world sales tour were favourable and in the last quarter of 1960 a British Aircraft Corporation design team began to
scheme the aircraft in greater detail. A number of changes were made on the basis of airline reaction, including a switch from pneumatics to a conventional hydraulic system. The fuselage cross section was changed from circular to double-bubble form to meet a requirement for increased freight and luggage capacity. A circular, though larger, cross-section was re-adopted in April 1961.
At the beginning of 1961, as the result of continuous liaison with a number of firmly interested airlines, it was becoming apparent that there were, in fact, two diverging requirements for short-haul 107 virtually as it stood and placed maximum emphasis on simplicity and low capital cost. The other group liked the concept of the aircraft but required improvements in performance, payload and equipment which would not have been possible within the timescale offered with BS.75 engines. This latter group of airlines placed greater emphasis than the first group on early delivery and together represented potential orders for a larger number of aircraft. The possibility was therefore explored of using two more powerful Rolls-Royce Spey engines, as already adopted for the de Havilland Trident, due to fly towards the end of this year.
In March 1961 the twin-Spey version was designated BAC One-Eleven and a technical meeting was held at Weybridge at which agreement was reached on over 50 basic points to be embodied in the design. In mid-March, following a British Aircraft Corporation board meeting, Sir George Edwards set up an organization to spread throughout BAC the overall task of designing, developing, building and selling the twin-jet design powered initially with Spey engines, and the version with BS.75 engines approximately one year later. The board's decision to proceed with these projects and to begin immediate production of an initial batch of 20 aircraft was stated at a sales conference at Weybridge in mid-April attended by over 60 members of the Bristol, Hunting and Vickers organizations. This decision had been made known to the Government in the previous month.
The sales campaign was made public at a press conference in London on May 9, when the first order was simultaneously announced. This was placed by British United Airways and was for ten One-Elevens, with an option on a further five. As Sir George Edwards said on this occasion: "This order means that we can now say to customers 'There you are: it is on the go. It is not just one of those things that we will build if you will buy it.' "
The complete 1961 article about the genesis of the One-Eleven: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5
I'm also joining an artist's impression of the Hunting H.107 from 1959, which shows a project more similar to a Caravelle than to the later One-Eleven which was developed from it.
The British Aircraft Corporation had many questions to resolve before it settled for the One-Eleven. Market surveys were done, as of course they must always be done. While market research may confirm what should not be built, it cannot decide what should be built; it is no more than an aid to management in making the final judgment—the irrevocable judgment that commits a company and everything for which it stands to a new aeroplane. Obviously, BAC's new jet could not overlap the market covered by the VC10. For a long time—from 1959 until early in 1960—project work was concentrated on the VC11, a machine of about 170,0001b and 130 seats designed for the 1,000-2,500 range-band.
Based on the Rolls-Royce Spey (four off) it seemed to appeal to the market, particularly to TCA. But political events at home posed other questions, the answers to which could not be narrowed down by market surveys. The British aircraft industry was being reshaped, and as a candidate for Government support the British Aircraft Corporation's VC11 found itself competing with the de Havilland Trident—or, more precisely, with projected developments of that aircraft. Though this did not itself cause the VC11 to be withdrawn, it was undoubtedly a contributory cause, as was the foothold gained in Europe by the competing Boeing 727, chosen by Lufthansa.
The same domestic events that brought the VC11, rightly or wrongly, into political conflict with the Trident also brought the Hunting H.107 project into the British Aircraft Corporation. Vickers and Hunting, now part of the same family, together breathed new life into this project, concentrating BAC thoughts on the development of a true jet successor to the Viscount. Influence of the 107 project on these thoughts was considerable, and it is appropriate to trace the evolution of the One-Eleven back to the beginnings of the 107.
Hunting's first 107 design study was completed in May 1956. The Bristol Orpheus was, at that time, the only suitable engine available. Serious design work began in November 1957, a mockup was built at Luton, and low-speed wind tunnel tests were completed. In September 1958 it was realized that turbofan engines then being developed would offer more attractive economics and the 107 was redesigned around two Bristol Siddeley BS.75s. At this stage it was a 48-seater with a range of up to 1,000 miles.
Early in 1960 a report on the Hunting 107 was prepared for the board of Vickers-Armstrongs (Aircraft) Ltd by the Vickers civil aircraft development group. This was shortly after the announcement of the forthcoming integration of Bristol, English Electric and Vickers as the British Aircraft Corporation (January 1960), and BAC's subsequent acquisition of the controlling interest in Hunting Aircraft. In May 1960 a team from Hunting led by the managing director, Mr Arthur Summers, visited Weybridge; a presentation of the 107 was made to a Vickers team headed by Sir George Edwards. From this moment the project went forward as a joint Hunting-Vickers effort.
At mid-1960 it appeared that the best hopes for converting the 107 from a project into a firm production aircraft lay in developing it initially as a Valetta/Varsity replacement for the RAF. It was suggested that, in the interests of rapid development, the 107 would be introduced with Orpheus engines and subsequently produced in the more economic BS.75 version. A proposal on these lines to the Government did not meet with a positive reaction, and the project was therefore continued as a civil transport aircraft with BS.75 engines. During this period it was decided to widen the fuselage to accommodate five-abreast seating, as in the Viscount, instead of four as in the original Hunting design, and the position of the tailplane was moved from the middle to the top of the fin.
In August 1960 there was a further presentation at Weybridge at which features of the project in revised form were set out before members of the sales and technical sales departments of Bristol, Hunting and Vickers. This was immediately followed by exploratory sales visits to major airlines all over the world. These visits were made by a number of British Aircraft Corporation teams and had two main objects: (1) to assess the airlines' interest in a twin-jet airliner in the Viscount/Convair size bracket, and (2) to obtain airline reaction to the engineering and operational features of the aeroplane. Details of the 107 as presented to the airlines were publicly revealed at the SBAC Show in September 1960.
Reactions to the world sales tour were favourable and in the last quarter of 1960 a British Aircraft Corporation design team began to
scheme the aircraft in greater detail. A number of changes were made on the basis of airline reaction, including a switch from pneumatics to a conventional hydraulic system. The fuselage cross section was changed from circular to double-bubble form to meet a requirement for increased freight and luggage capacity. A circular, though larger, cross-section was re-adopted in April 1961.
At the beginning of 1961, as the result of continuous liaison with a number of firmly interested airlines, it was becoming apparent that there were, in fact, two diverging requirements for short-haul 107 virtually as it stood and placed maximum emphasis on simplicity and low capital cost. The other group liked the concept of the aircraft but required improvements in performance, payload and equipment which would not have been possible within the timescale offered with BS.75 engines. This latter group of airlines placed greater emphasis than the first group on early delivery and together represented potential orders for a larger number of aircraft. The possibility was therefore explored of using two more powerful Rolls-Royce Spey engines, as already adopted for the de Havilland Trident, due to fly towards the end of this year.
In March 1961 the twin-Spey version was designated BAC One-Eleven and a technical meeting was held at Weybridge at which agreement was reached on over 50 basic points to be embodied in the design. In mid-March, following a British Aircraft Corporation board meeting, Sir George Edwards set up an organization to spread throughout BAC the overall task of designing, developing, building and selling the twin-jet design powered initially with Spey engines, and the version with BS.75 engines approximately one year later. The board's decision to proceed with these projects and to begin immediate production of an initial batch of 20 aircraft was stated at a sales conference at Weybridge in mid-April attended by over 60 members of the Bristol, Hunting and Vickers organizations. This decision had been made known to the Government in the previous month.
The sales campaign was made public at a press conference in London on May 9, when the first order was simultaneously announced. This was placed by British United Airways and was for ten One-Elevens, with an option on a further five. As Sir George Edwards said on this occasion: "This order means that we can now say to customers 'There you are: it is on the go. It is not just one of those things that we will build if you will buy it.' "
The complete 1961 article about the genesis of the One-Eleven: Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3 | Page 4 | Page 5
I'm also joining an artist's impression of the Hunting H.107 from 1959, which shows a project more similar to a Caravelle than to the later One-Eleven which was developed from it.
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BAC107: http://www.aviationarchive.org.uk/Gpages/html/G3912.html
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A similar view to the one posted above, this from
'Air International', January 1979, page 7.
Note the taller fin and rudder.
An artist's impression of the H.107 in flight,
from page 106 of 'Percival and Hunting Aircraft',
self-published by John Silvester, by the book's author.
A 3-view of the H.107,from the same source.
cheers,
Robin.
'Air International', January 1979, page 7.
Note the taller fin and rudder.
An artist's impression of the H.107 in flight,
from page 106 of 'Percival and Hunting Aircraft',
self-published by John Silvester, by the book's author.
A 3-view of the H.107,from the same source.
cheers,
Robin.
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Dear Boys and Girls, here is part of an article in French about the BAC 107 jet airliner "project" (the rest of the article is about the Avro 771 jet airliner "project")......
The article comes from the 22nd October 1960 issue of Les Ailes......
Terry (Caravellarella)
The article comes from the 22nd October 1960 issue of Les Ailes......
Terry (Caravellarella)
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Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the Hunting 107 jet airliner "project"; note that it was being promoted as part of the Airco group of companies at that time......
The article comes from the 16th January 1960 issue of Les Ailes......
Terry (Caravellarella)
The article comes from the 16th January 1960 issue of Les Ailes......
Terry (Caravellarella)
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alertken said:
Dear Alertken, Hunting was part of the Airco consortium at that time. As you know, Hunting eventually ended up with BAC instead bringing the H-107 & H-111 jet airliner "projects" to Weybridge where they replaced the BAC VC-11 (which had no customers, no funding and no launch orders)......
Sorry, it's all before I was born. I just scan the stuff and post it here......
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(Not moaning, but thanking you). The timing was that 24xAirco DH.121 (to be Trident 1) were ordered for BEAC, 1/3/58. DH was taken over by HS Group, 17/12/59. Blue Streak IRBM was chopped 13/4/60 and neither I, nor anyone, knows whether the due diligence in the deal detected that. MoA at that point told Ministers they guessed total project cost as >£600Mn., great glurpings of which were to pass through DH: that, not parts of some Tridents, comprised the asset attractive to HSGroup. HS dismantled Airco as soon as they acquired DH, so that all DH.121 business could stay within HSAL. Fairey went into Westland, 2/5/60, Hunting into BAC 9/60. BAC1-11 was launched by BUA, 9/5/61 and you have shown us how it evolved from H.107. I just had never seen a link, H.107: Airco.
Terry: all these Brits moaning about 727 "stealing" Trident's layout: can you scan a Sud Avn. advert in the 1958-59 period, when all these Avro 771, Bristol 200, 107, 121, VC10, VC11 were being puffed. It showed a small boy looking at a magazine, holding a model of a certain Toulouse product. The ad simply said "Oh! Ils ont copies Caravelle!"
Terry: all these Brits moaning about 727 "stealing" Trident's layout: can you scan a Sud Avn. advert in the 1958-59 period, when all these Avro 771, Bristol 200, 107, 121, VC10, VC11 were being puffed. It showed a small boy looking at a magazine, holding a model of a certain Toulouse product. The ad simply said "Oh! Ils ont copies Caravelle!"
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Sister topic to this one: Beyond the One-Eleven - British Aircraft Corporation BAC 1-11 projects
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sealordlawrence said:
Just beginning to wonder: does the picture in said article REALLY show an alternate H.107?
Or could it be BAC 207? What prompts this question is:
- The shape of the first figure on the aircraft's fuselage (more like a "2", especially considering the English usually do not add the little appendix in the top left corner of "1").
- The existence of a BAC (Bristol) 205 project which was very similar in overall layout:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2293.msg28520.html#msg28520
Vahe Demirjian
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In the picture titled "BAC 107.jpg" the numbering on the fuselage reads 207, not 107.
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RARE 1960s BAC 107 British Twin Jet Airliner Project Aircraft Brochure 1-11 | eBay
<p>RARE 1960s BAC 107 British Twin Jet Airliner Project Aircraft Brochure 1-11 </p><br /><p>A rare aircraft brochure for the British Aircraft Corporation BAC 107 which later came to be the BAC 1-11</p><br /><p>In excellent condition </p><br /><p>Please see photos for condition</p><br...
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