PretzelDarter

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Hello,
Described in both Naval Fighters #75: Grumman F7F Tigercat and F7F Tigercat in Action is a zero-length launch rack for launching the 11.75" Tiny Tim rocket without need for a drop beforehand, developed at NOTS China Lake and intended for the F7F.

NFs book Tigercat zero length launcher for Tiny Tims.jpg
InAction Tigercat zero length launcher for Tiny Tim.JPG
Evidently it seems it's only for the belly rack, though I was wondering if it was also used for the underwing racks (I suspect not due to the rockets then being within the propeller disc but I'm curious nonetheless).
I assume this was used on operational Tigercats? Did any other aircraft make use of this rack? Any information would be appreciated.
 
Hello,
Described in both Naval Fighters #75: Grumman F7F Tigercat and F7F Tigercat in Action is a zero-length launch rack for launching the 11.75" Tiny Tim rocket without need for a drop beforehand, developed at NOTS China Lake and intended for the F7F.

View attachment 760640
View attachment 760642
Evidently it seems it's only for the belly rack, though I was wondering if it was also used for the underwing racks (I suspect not due to the rockets then being within the propeller disc but I'm curious nonetheless).
I assume this was used on operational Tigercats? Did any other aircraft make use of this rack? Any information would be appreciated.
The 11.75" Tiny Tim was tested on a variety of aircraft at both China Lake / Inyokern and at the Salton Sea by the USN using, variously, F6F, F4U, PBJ, TBM / TBF, and SB2C aircraft. All used a fuselage rack and single rocket arrangement.

The USAAF at Muroc tested the rocket on P-47, A-20, and A-26 aircraft by the 4146th Base Unit (experimental). Testing found these aircraft unsuitable for launching this rocket due to damage to the tail of the firing plane and testing was dropped.

Operationally, MAG 51(VMF 513, 514, and SMS-51) with F4U trained at Cherry Point NC to use the Tiny Tim in Europe against V-1 launch sites. The unit departed for Norfolk VA on 11 July 1944. Shortly thereafter, the project to use these Marine fighters (60 aircraft 96 pilots) in Europe was cancelled due to the progress of the war in the ETO.

VMF 214 and 452 used this rocket in operations during the invasion of Okinawa firing a total of 108 from their F4U fighters. The planes were flying from the USS Franklin. On 18 March 1945, the carrier was hit twice while loading out for a strike. The resulting damage was severe enough to force the carrier to return to the US for major repairs. That ended use of this rocket at Okinawa until VMB-612 arrived just before the war ended.

VMB-612 equipped with PBJ-1J's (aka B-25D bombers) used this rocket in patrols in the Marianas from October 1944 and later from Iwo Jima. The planes were primarily used at night with AN/APQ-5 gunsight radars and an AN/APS-3 search radar against IJN ships and merchant ships. By July 1945, the squadron moved to Chimu Field on Okinawa in preparation for the invasion of Japan. The squadron used the Tiny Tim in conjunction with 5" HVAR Holy Moses rockets against shipping off Japan in the Straight of Tsushima sinking or damaging a number of smaller merchant vessels using one or the other rocket type.

Limited testing continued with the Tiny Tim for a brief period after the war ended, and the Marines used some in Korea from existing WW 2 stocks firing these from F4U.
 
I remember reading that the rocket was dropped like a bomb and the engine ignited after launch by means of a three-foot cable that connected it to the plane
 
The 11.75" Tiny Tim was tested on a variety of aircraft at both China Lake / Inyokern and at the Salton Sea by the USN using, variously, F6F, F4U, PBJ, TBM / TBF, and SB2C aircraft. All used a fuselage rack and single rocket arrangement.

The USAAF at Muroc tested the rocket on P-47, A-20, and A-26 aircraft by the 4146th Base Unit (experimental). Testing found these aircraft unsuitable for launching this rocket due to damage to the tail of the firing plane and testing was dropped.

Operationally, MAG 51(VMF 513, 514, and SMS-51) with F4U trained at Cherry Point NC to use the Tiny Tim in Europe against V-1 launch sites. The unit departed for Norfolk VA on 11 July 1944. Shortly thereafter, the project to use these Marine fighters (60 aircraft 96 pilots) in Europe was cancelled due to the progress of the war in the ETO.

VMF 214 and 452 used this rocket in operations during the invasion of Okinawa firing a total of 108 from their F4U fighters. The planes were flying from the USS Franklin. On 18 March 1945, the carrier was hit twice while loading out for a strike. The resulting damage was severe enough to force the carrier to return to the US for major repairs. That ended use of this rocket at Okinawa until VMB-612 arrived just before the war ended.

VMB-612 equipped with PBJ-1J's (aka B-25D bombers) used this rocket in patrols in the Marianas from October 1944 and later from Iwo Jima. The planes were primarily used at night with AN/APQ-5 gunsight radars and an AN/APS-3 search radar against IJN ships and merchant ships. By July 1945, the squadron moved to Chimu Field on Okinawa in preparation for the invasion of Japan. The squadron used the Tiny Tim in conjunction with 5" HVAR Holy Moses rockets against shipping off Japan in the Straight of Tsushima sinking or damaging a number of smaller merchant vessels using one or the other rocket type.

Limited testing continued with the Tiny Tim for a brief period after the war ended, and the Marines used some in Korea from existing WW 2 stocks firing these from F4U.
I can appreciate the general historical overview of the Tiny Tim, but that's not what I'm after specifically. I'm wondering moreso about the zero-length launch rail/rack, in that it represents a fairly unique installation in regards the rocket, which would otherwise be dropped before motor ignition on most other aircraft. To clarify: Is there any known usage of the same or similar zero-length launch rack design on any other US aircraft, or would it seem that it is wholly unique to the Tigercat?
 
I can appreciate the general historical overview of the Tiny Tim, but that's not what I'm after specifically. I'm wondering moreso about the zero-length launch rail/rack, in that it represents a fairly unique installation in regards the rocket, which would otherwise be dropped before motor ignition on most other aircraft. To clarify: Is there any known usage of the same or similar zero-length launch rack design on any other US aircraft, or would it seem that it is wholly unique to the Tigercat?
From the photos I've seen--while not definitive--of the mounting on the F4U and PBJ, it looks like the exact same one used on the F7F. I have seen one photo of a PBJ in testing dropping the Tiny Tim and you can see the still attached umbilical cord used in early testing designs.
 
On the F4U there appears to be two different launcher assemblies tested and used. The first is a release cradle type that swings the rocket down to clear the prop before release and firing. This one was used on the centerline of the fuselage as shown here:

R.b801474895576123f3103b3b17f2e116


R.036499f67286179a8045ebbd4fb31a57

The second type, and the one that appears to be used more operationally, is a zero-length launcher offset on the inboard wing allowing the F4U to carry two Tiny Tims.


1400806034_podveska-tiny-tim.jpg


On the TBM / TBF it appears that the cradle arm launcher was modified to fit in the bomb bay

R.3c0d2266c6ed5b19fa74d71bb0b171c5


The PBJ rack looks somewhat different than these

f999b15e1bb489bb011bb63b4960ea9b.jpg


 
On the F4U there appears to be two different launcher assemblies tested and used. The first is a release cradle type that swings the rocket down to clear the prop before release and firing. This one was used on the centerline of the fuselage as shown here:


The second type, and the one that appears to be used more operationally, is a zero-length launcher offset on the inboard wing allowing the F4U to carry two Tiny Tims.


1400806034_podveska-tiny-tim.jpg


On the TBM / TBF it appears that the cradle arm launcher was modified to fit in the bomb bay


The PBJ rack looks somewhat different than these

f999b15e1bb489bb011bb63b4960ea9b.jpg


As far as I'm my understanding goes for all of this, the "dive-bomber" style trapeze was only used in testing for the Corsair, and the latter wing root stations as displayed was the type that saw action. The thing is, is that neither of these are the special zero-length racks as described on the Tigercat. In either footage example (2:15 for the F4U, 0:21 for the PBJ), you can see a visible drop on the rockets prior to ignition, so these aren't the described dropless, zero-length method for the F7F. Zero-length would more or less be the rocket firing right off it's rack without extra steps, which is normally not how Tiny Tims were fired.

Part of the problem with trying to do a zero-length rack for the Tiny Tim (at least, for most single-engine aircraft), is that the Tiny Tim often has to be mounted near the centerline compared to smaller rockets, that could be fitted further underwing. Because of this, they often are within the arc of the propeller if fired right off the rail, where they would risk hitting the propeller due to practical limitations with the rocket travelling within the moving prop's arc, not unlike pre-synchronization gear aircraft machine guns in WW1. This is part of the reason why they required some form of motion to displace the rocket outside of the arc prior to ignition (another reason was apparent significant stress for most airframes when the rocket ignition was fired on the rail). The method for that was initially the trapeze (following the same logic as a dive bomber dropping a bomb from a sharp angle, and needing to displace it outside of the propeller arc), then later dropping the Tiny Tim like a bomb before ignition. Smaller rockets that could be fitted underwing, like the 5" HVAR, do not suffer these limitations because they can be mounted outside of the propeller disc, and can be stabilized right after ignition without the need of a rail (which is what the RP-3 rocket commonly is seen launched from).

So in order to have a zero length launch rack for the Tiny Tim, it needs to be outside of the propeller arc. For the F7F, this would be on it's belly station, clear of either prop. The inner wing pylons presumably could not use zero-length because they would be within the arcs, and so a Tiny Tim mounted on those stations would have to be dropped beforehand. The belly station is the only unique setup in that regard on the F7F.

I would think that the PBJ would be able to fire them off without a drop with this in mind, but in the footage we see either rocket drop before ignition. It might be the structural strength problem preventing zero-length rack use if I had to guess, or some other issue.

I hope this provides more clarity on what I'm asking about. Footage where a Tiny Tim isn't dropped before ignition would be right on the money for proving than an aircraft has the type of rack that's described on the F7F. Just looking like the rack isn't enough.
 
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Two aircraft in particular that I'm wondering about concerning being potential dropless, zero-length Tiny Tim rack candidates would be the Douglas AD Skyraider and Martin AM Mauler.
(not my model)
1740872491676.png
1740872537283.png
1740872552162.png

and the Mauler.
1740872889028.png
1740872907079.png

The outboard stations are far enough outside the propeller disc that they could potentially be dropless. I just have yet to see confirmation of this suspicion, either written or in footage.
 
This is the PBJ launching one during early testing:

R.9c908c8073463db3bb1e1d62df9ee7b6


F-84 Korean war era with a Tiny Tim. It appears to be a bomb rack drop-launch system

120914-Z-JV725-009.JPG


It looks like the norm for aircraft launch is to drop the rocket like a bomb, with a say, 1 or 2 second delay on ignition of the rocket motor no umbilical cord needed.
 

These photos are of Tiny Tim on PBJ-1J aircraft of VMB-612. It was the only PBJ squadron to use them operationally in WW2. They ran flight tests in June & July 1945 determining after trial and error to prevent damage to the aircraft from debris thrown up by explosion of the rockets, that the best launch parameters were a range of 1,350 yards from 700 ft altitude. No more than 10 aircraft were modified to carry these rockets.

First Tiny Tim mission was flown on the night of 21/22 July 1945 from Okinawa across the East China Sea and Yellow Sea to northern Korean waters. But only 10 Tiny Tim combat sorties were flown by the squadron prior to the end of hostilities. It seems that they expended more of these weapons in trials and training against rocks than they did in combat!

VMB-612 carried out a number of modifications to their PBJ-1 aircraft to suit their night operations role. That included removal of the dorsal turret to save weight. MOre noticably, they repositioned the radar from the pod on the wingtip to the "hose nose" position in the front fuselage. This provided greater accuracy and was a modification carried out by the squadron engineers.
 
These photos are of Tiny Tim on PBJ-1J aircraft of VMB-612. It was the only PBJ squadron to use them operationally in WW2. They ran flight tests in June & July 1945 determining after trial and error to prevent damage to the aircraft from debris thrown up by explosion of the rockets, that the best launch parameters were a range of 1,350 yards from 700 ft altitude. No more than 10 aircraft were modified to carry these rockets.

First Tiny Tim mission was flown on the night of 21/22 July 1945 from Okinawa across the East China Sea and Yellow Sea to northern Korean waters. But only 10 Tiny Tim combat sorties were flown by the squadron prior to the end of hostilities. It seems that they expended more of these weapons in trials and training against rocks than they did in combat!

VMB-612 carried out a number of modifications to their PBJ-1 aircraft to suit their night operations role. That included removal of the dorsal turret to save weight. MOre noticably, they repositioned the radar from the pod on the wingtip to the "hose nose" position in the front fuselage. This provided greater accuracy and was a modification carried out by the squadron engineers.
On that last, this is incorrect. The nose radar was added while retaining the wingtip pod mounted one. That one was for search while the nose radar was a range only, gunsight linked one that allowed for accurate aiming and delivery of weapons at night.

The wingtip AN/APS-3 X band (10cm) was a search set with an about 18-mile range and a scanning arc of 160 degrees.
The nose AN/APQ-5 was specifically developed as a gunsight / night / blind bombing radar on K-band (3cm) with about a 10-mile range. The two worked in conjunction with the APS-3 finding the target(s) and the APQ-5 being used as the 'gunsight.'

The APS-3 was commonly used on many USN patrol aircraft while the APQ-5 saw more limited use, but was already being operationally used on PB4Y's for example.
 
On that last, this is incorrect. The nose radar was added while retaining the wingtip pod mounted one. That one was for search while the nose radar was a range only, gunsight linked one that allowed for accurate aiming and delivery of weapons at night.

The wingtip AN/APS-3 X band (10cm) was a search set with an about 18-mile range and a scanning arc of 160 degrees.
The nose AN/APQ-5 was specifically developed as a gunsight / night / blind bombing radar on K-band (3cm) with about a 10-mile range. The two worked in conjunction with the APS-3 finding the target(s) and the APQ-5 being used as the 'gunsight.'

The APS-3 was commonly used on many USN patrol aircraft while the APQ-5 saw more limited use, but was already being operationally used on PB4Y's for example.
Sorry but that is not the tale told in a number of publications. This one for starters.

"VMB-612 had proved conclusively that nose-mounted radar not only offered about 20 degrees more sweep area but gave better weight distribution, not to mention accessibility for servicing. Structurally, the 'hose-nose' mount was also stronger. There was no question that the sets on the new J models had to be relocated."

This was a quote Scutts took from T Honeycutt's "Cram's Rams. A History of VMB-612"

The same modification had been made to the squadron's earlier PBJ-1D.

The wingtip pod, when fitted, was on the starboard wingtip. This is one of a number of photos of of VMB-612 PBJ-1J on Okinawa. No radar pod on either wingtip, just on the nose.
 
This is the PBJ launching one during early testing:


F-84 Korean war era with a Tiny Tim. It appears to be a bomb rack drop-launch system

120914-Z-JV725-009.JPG


It looks like the norm for aircraft launch is to drop the rocket like a bomb, with a say, 1 or 2 second delay on ignition of the rocket motor no umbilical cord needed.
Yes. As established, the drop method is normal for Tiny Tim launches. I am specifically looking for more aircraft that were the exception to this with dropless racks, like the Tigercat's belly station.
 

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