The mysterious case of the misplaced Focke-Wulf/De Schelde 'F.W. 198'

[hesham]

A true project to Luftwaffe,the Focke-Wulf FW-198 :
which was advance fighter powered by a pusher Daimler-Benz DB-600
engine,it had twin tail boom and carried a massive 23-mm gun and four
machine guns,but it was refused because the number 198 would give
to Arado.

 

[lark]

Dear Hesham

The so called Focke-Wulf FW-198 was -or is -a fake.

The plane was "created" by intelligence services the pre WW II scare
and taken over by some publications in France the U.K. and
the Low countries.

Perhaps there was confusion wth the Dutch De Schelde S.21
twinboom fighter.

 

[lark]

I have no sources for France , but the plane was illustrated in
the U.K. in The Aeroplane and in Flight.
In the low countries an article was published by Vliegwereld
with a 3 view probably taken over from the Spotter.

According to Bill Gunston in "Plane Speaking" Patrick Stephens Ltd about the FW-198 ..." the most incredible tale of all ' non-Luftwaffe' aircraft..

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

http://www.commercemarketplace.com/home/CollectAir/Model_Airplanes.html has a lot of info.

The October, 1952 issue of Air Trails magazine carried this teaser on the front cover: "The mysterious case of the misplaced De Schelde 'F.W. 198'." A three-page article puts to rest the saga of the Fw 198, outlining how the 1938 de Schelde S.21, built by Koninklijke Maatschappij 'de Schelde' at the Flushing, Holland plant became known as a "Fokker", then as a "Focke-Wulf", but no one has an explanation for the "198".

 

[Antonio]

the Focke-Wulf was a true project to Luftwaffe in my resource and it wasn't creat by intelligent or dreams.

Dear hesham,

could you please give us your source?. I think it could be very interesting

Thank you very much!

Cheers,
Antonio

 

[smurf]

Overscan is right. I've seen the detailed De Schelde origin elsewhere, too.

 

[hesham]

Dear Pometablava,

when I speak about project I can not cheat you or the members.
that true project to Luftwaffe was mentioned in magazine;
The illustrated encyclopedia of aircraft Issue number 168 page 3341.

 

[Tophe]

Part of the misunderstanding may be that:
- a true Fw 198 was designed and was original
- the magazine Aeroplane Spotter (Vol. IV issue No.75) failed to get some art about it and used an old art made for the De Schelde S.21, which became a fake Fw 198
That would be a minor misunderstanding, not interesting me much, BUT... maybe they used this drawing because the Fw 198 was described as a twin-boom pusher with a glazed nose... and I would like to see the real 198, I'd love it... ;D

 

[Tophe]

I have drawn a picture of this Fw 198 (that I dream of) at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4626&st=400&#entry164634
(this is more a what-if dream for what-ifers, I know we are rather serious here)

 

[smurf]

that true project to Luftwaffe was mentioned in magazine;
The illustrated encyclopedia of aircraft Issue number 168 page 3341.

where it says:
"Had anyone in the UK had any understanding of the German 8-series type number system they would have smelled a rat, because there could not have been two aircraft numbered 198 and Arado had flown the prototype Ar 198 (a tactical reconnaissance and army co-op machine) in 1938. Not until after the war was it ruefully admitted that the Fw198 had never existed as such. For some reason which has never been explained, this phoney designation was applied in the UK to the Dutch de Schelde S.21!"

 

[Tophe]

because there could not have been two aircraft numbered 198 and Arado had flown the prototype Ar 198

This is not obvious: remember the Messerschmitt Bf 162 Jaguar prototype with twin propellers then the mass-produced Heinkel He 162 with single jet...

 

[smurf]

because there could not have been two aircraft numbered 198 and Arado had flown the prototype Ar 198

Please, they meant not two Ar 198's.

 

[smurf]

Ignore me I'm not awake yet!

 

[elmayerle]

because there could not have been two aircraft numbered 198 and Arado had flown the prototype Ar 198

This is not obvious: remember the Messerschmitt Bf 162 Jaguar prototype with twin propellers then the mass-produced Heinkel He 162 with single jet...

Or the Messerschmit Bf 163 which was in competition with the Fi-156; the number being recyled later for the rocket fighter.

 

[smurf]

I know about duplicate numbers, which usually arose by late war emergencies taking numbers used earlier, for abandoned projects. The purpose of my quote

Quote
that true project to Luftwaffe was mentioned in magazine;
The illustrated encyclopedia of aircraft Issue number 168 page 3341.
where it says:
"Had anyone in the UK had any understanding of the German 8-series type number system they would have smelled a rat, because there could not have been two aircraft numbered 198 and Arado had flown the prototype Ar 198 (a tactical reconnaissance and army co-op machine) in 1938. Not until after the war was it ruefully admitted that the Fw198 had never existed as such. For some reason which has never been explained, this phoney designation was applied in the UK to the Dutch de Schelde S.21!"

was to show that Ill. Enc. of Aircraft believed FW 198 to be a fake, and not a true project as suggested. IAE's reasons were not my concern, though duplication of number 9especially in 1940) is an indication, though not certain proof. The interesting part of the IEA quote is not the number issue, but "after the war it was ruefully admitted" By whom? When? where? I have seen and may be able to find, a more detailed illustrated article on the de Schelde S.21 which dealt with how its identity got 'borrowed'

 

[JC Carbonel]

I have begun researching this Fw198/De Schelde affair and I found a french mag of llate 1940 (autumn I think) with an illustration of the new German fighter (no name) as per Signal ...
So I assume the whole mess originated from Signal , pure Dr Goebbels work then .... Someone above said that the whole Luft 46 is here to prove that the German won the tech war ...well obviously they won the propaganda war ....

I have a whole bunch of made-up Luft 46 designs mostly from Italian mags from the fifties but also from other sources ...

JCC

 

[Tophe]

I have begun researching this Fw198/De Schelde affair and I found a french mag of llate 1940 (autumn I think) with an illustration of the new German fighter (no name) as per Signal ...

Do you mean that, on this French mag, the De Schelde old design was presented as new German design, or that another similar twin-boom fighter was presented? (sorry for my misunderstanding your words)

 

[Tophe]

I have drawn a picture of this Fw 198 (that I dream of) at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4626&st=400&#entry164634
(this is more a what-if dream for what-ifers, I know we are rather serious here)

Thanks to Lark (thanks a lot dear), I have been able to discover this (fake) Fw 198 that was different from a S.21... Joy! See at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4886&st=80&#entry186477 and the link there to the full story (or history, not History).

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Here is the Fw 198 page from the 1943 Aeronautics Aircraft Spotters' Handbook, Second Edition Copyright National Aeronautics Council, Inc., New York.


Cheers, Jon

 

[Tophe]

Thanks a lot:
- it is great to have a 3-view of this one
- it is funny to have technical data precise as 31'6" or 7188lb, for a plane that did not exist at all...

 

[Antonio]

Thanks Jon!!

This is a very interesting document

 

[hesham]

Hi,

that means there was a FW-198 design (as I said) !.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

Hi,

that means there was a FW-198 design (as I said) !.

???? All it proves is that the publishers of wartime spotting guides were no better informed than anybody else.
Read through one sometime, the sections on Japanese aircraft are particularly amusing.
The same manual illustrates the Caudron C714 as being almost identical to the Caudron racer , as having fixed gear and two cannon in enormous fairings sticking out of the leading edge of the wing inboard of the gear. Completely wrong.
The book is full of similar errors.

The FW 198 was not a 'real' Focke Wulf aircraft.

Cheers, Jon

 

[smurf]

Fw 198

There is an account of the "development" of the Fw198 in Bill Gunston's Plane Speaking. Most is on this page, (note the comment from Kurt Tank) with the picture from 1943 Aeronautics Aircraft Spotters' Handbook on a previous page with the note that it first appeared in UK in Feb 1940. His story continues:

 

[airman]

Here is the Fw 198 page from the 1943 Aeronautics Aircraft Spotters' Handbook, Second Edition Copyright National Aeronautics Council, Inc., New York.


Cheers, Jon

New for me !
http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/ww2planes/fockewulf/21113/view/focke_wulf_fw-198/
http://www.mediafire.com/?0w1zkxoicmd (here a pdf about model )
http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/models-schelde-focke-wulf-9255-p-17883.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/de-schelde-s-21-a-8538.html

Seems a De-Schelde S.21 with Luftwaffe insigna ! ;D ;D

 

[Stargazer]

New topic split from an old "Luftwaffe secret projects" thread.

Considering most of what is published in these pages goes back at least five years, I was wondering if maybe anything new about the "Fw 198" had come to anyone's attention in the meantime...

 

[hesham]

Hi,


and here is an article about Focke-Wulf FW-198.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6554733t/f5.image

 

[Jemiba]

Maybe the, or at least one of the original sources for that false information. The
article is from 1940, when the authors/publishers of a French magazine probably
had no direct access to original German documents ...

 

[Michel Van]

de Schelde is "Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding" at Vlissingen, netherlands
in 1930s they start to build aircraft
then in 1940 De Schelde, Fokker and Aviolanda had to work to getter on order of the Dutch government
one of there design is the S.20 that was a four passenger plane with twin boom and push propellor (it has similarity to Fokker P-147)
One prototype of S.20 was build, it was confiscated by Luftwaffe and tested until it was destroy

source
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damen_Schelde_Naval_Shipbuilding



Fokker P-147 This design was a request from KLM early in 1937. (maybe the S.20 is also design on this request ?)

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi

 

[Justo Miranda]

S-20 and S-21 comparative

 

[Michel Van]

There could be explanation why this Dutch design is supposed from a German aircraft Manufacture

Fokker was founded in 1912 by the dutch Antony Fokker in Berlin Germany.
For foreigner intelligent servis like British or french, it's a German Company during WW1
After 1919, Antony Fokker move his factory to Netherlands
that look like a german company escape the Treaty of Versailles, just like Dornier move to Swiss

in 1924, the Focke-Wulf-Flugzeugbau AG was founded by Henrich Focke and Georg Wulf.
for foreigner ears sound the German Focke and dutch Fokker almost identical
maybe some analyst, came to wrong conclusion there is a connection between Henrich Focke and Antony Fokker

and that Fokker P-147 and De Schelde D.20/D.21 look almost same,
could give the expression that "German" Fokker or Focke (-Wulf) work on Fighter project FW. 198

THX for Picture, Justo

 

[Arjen]

de Schelde is "Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding" at Vlissingen, netherlands
in 1930s they start to build aircraft
then in 1940 De Schelde, Fokker and Aviolanda had to work to getter on order of the Dutch government

I think I have to point here that 'Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding' as a company is the result of a merger/takeover of the remains of the original 'Naval Yard De Schelde' part of another merger company - 'Rijn-Schelde-Verolme'. Businessman Kommer Damen basically merged what was left of various Dutch yards with his own quite succesful upstart company.

'De Schelde' was the only Dutch shipbuilder with any aircraft building capacity, it ceased to exist as an independent company somewhere in the sixties and any aircraft building activities weren't carried over into the post-war period.

 

[Michel Van]

actually from 1936, De Schelde was merrily a supplier of parts to Aviolanda production of Dornier Do.24K license.


I made a error, the forced cooperation of De Schelde, Fokker and Aviolanda on order of the Dutch government was 1946
sorry for that mistake

 

[hesham]

In Italian magazine called it FW.168;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L_ALA%20D_ITALIA_1941_09.pdf