The first "Trieste"

[archipeppe]

In "Storia Militare" n. 196 (January 2010) Enrico Cernuschi described the unknown project of an early Italian helicopter/VTOL carrier of 60's.
During 1965 the Italian Navy seriously considered the possibility to modify the proposed second "Vittorio Veneto" cruiser into a sort of small carrier, dubbed "Trieste".
The ship should share the same hull of Veneto as much the same engines and most of its armament, included Terrier missiles launch pad.

The ship should be 190 meters of lenght, 20 meters of width and 9,000 tons of mass.
The ship should be also equipped with a couple of SPG-55C radars (as the Vittorio Veneto did), and with 4 OTO Melara 127/54 cannons and also other 4 ones of 76/62.
A relatively small landing deck would allows helicopter and VTOL fighter operations (most notably the VAK-191B for Italian Navy), with a lower hangar able to host at least up to 12 helicopters/aircrafts.
The island would be also small, at least 15 meters lenght and 8 meters width.
The helicopters would be the Agusta/Sikorsky SH-3D (as later embarched on Garibaldi).
The ship would have one only elevator placed backward, designed aroud the VAK-191.

The project ended in 1966 since Italian Government decided to use the money allocated for the Trieste to build a new nuclear 18.000 ship dubbed "Enrico Fermi".
In September 1970 even the Fermi project was stopped and the funds were exploited to allow Italy to join the MRCA Panavia Tornado programme.

If built and launched the Trieste would give a first carrier to Italy at least 15 years before the actual Giuseppe Garibaldi. With the end of VAK-191 programme, Italian Navy could choose between the Sea Harrier or the AV-8A (as already Spain did). Someone noted that probably the deck would be extended to the whole hull respect the original drawings (removing all the armaments) giving the Trieste much like a Garibaldi look.

Enclosed a Trieste drawing by Maurizio Brescia.

 

[Pioneer]

Very interesting!
Neither knew of 'Trieste' design, let alone the diversion of funds to the MRCA Panavia Tornado programme.

Thanks for sharing archipeppe!!


Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

a new nuclear 18.000 ship dubbed "Enrico Fermi".

Porco dio ! I need to know more about that beast. Do we have a thread on this forum about such an ambitious project ? Italy really thought BIG, back then.

 

[Hood]

This is a wonderful find.
I had heard of the Trieste, sometimes called Italia, in connection with a planned sistership to the Vittorio Veneto, but I had never realised that they were planning something a little grander.
Its also the first time that I've seen the VAK-191B connected with the Italian Navy, of course at that time the Italian Navy was prohibited from operating fixed-wing aircraft.

 

[Grey Havoc]

For those unfamiliar with the aircraft in question:

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/german-v-stol-fighter-projects.3755/

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/vak-191-development-variants-prototypes.391/

 

[Dilandu]

Quite interesting! I wondered for a long time how a "Trieste" should looks like.

Someone noted that probably the deck would be extended to the whole hull respect the original drawings (removing all the armaments) giving the Trieste much like a Garibaldi look.

Hm... doubt that: she was designed generally for Mediterranean, and on such limited theater, it wasn't exactly wise to went without armament, relying only on "Harrier"'s. Especially in 1970s. Let's not forget, that "Garibaldi" initially carried "Otomat" SSM's, exactly because she could not always be sure of staying out of enemy reach.

 

[archipeppe]

Hm... doubt that: she was designed generally for Mediterranean, and on such limited theater, it wasn't exactly wise to went without armament, relying only on "Harrier"'s. Especially in 1970s. Let's not forget, that "Garibaldi" initially carried "Otomat" SSM's, exactly because she could not always be sure of staying out of enemy reach.

Not that Simple. Originally Garibaldi was heavily armed either due to the "through deck cruiser" doctrine, either because Marina Militare didn't knew, at that times, if could get fixed wing aircrafts or not.
Given the presence of VTOL aircrafts, of any kind, a bigger deck would be far more useful than any armament onboard.

 

[uk 75]

I remember the interesting notes in Janes about Italia later Trieste.
The drawing is intriguing as it seems to have a through deck, albeit cut short at either end. This design might have been known to the UK who were looking at a similar escort cruiser, later to become the Invincible class.
The Vittorio with its Macks and aft helicopter deck looked similar to one of the UK designs.

 

[archipeppe]

I remember the interesting notes in Janes about Italia later Trieste.
The drawing is intriguing as it seems to have a through deck, albeit cut short at either end. This design might have been known to the UK who were looking at a similar escort cruiser, later to become the Invincible class.
The Vittorio with its Macks and aft helicopter deck looked similar to one of the UK designs.

Absolutely correct.
All the Italian capital ships, since after the WWII, owe their design to an English ascendence.
As you pointed out that was true for the Vittorio Veneto, and much even true for the Garibaldi (essentially an enlarged version of the proposed "Harrier Carrier", while the Prince of Asturias was clearly derived by the U.S. SCS project).
Even today you may see some similiarities between the Queen Elizabeth II design and the Trieste LPH.

Regarding the proposed heavy armament on Trieste it worth to note that the Garibaldi lost its Otomat missiles once gained the AV-8B+, the ship retained (especially after 2003 main works) a certain degree of defence capabilities losing much of its offence ones, and relay almost totally on Harriers.

 

[archipeppe]

Vosper Harrier Carrier vs Giuseppe Garibaldi.

 

[Tzoli]

That is the Vosper-Thornycroft Escort carrier design from 1975 on 6.000tons standard 7.200tons full load displacment?

 

[archipeppe]

That is the Vosper-Thornycroft Escort carrier design from 1975 on 6.000tons standard 7.200tons full load displacment?

Yes it is, such Project was seminal during the birth of the early Garibaldi design.

 

[archipeppe]

One interesting thing reported by Italian aerospace press of the 80's when Garibaldi was launched that there was also a second unit planned. Such sister ship was intended for Iran, obviously the fall of Shah vanished such purposes.

 

[World B4]

Very cool find Arcipeppe!

 

[Tzoli]

Since we are talking about Italian modern air capable ships. Quite a few years ago I got hold some data about a modern Landing Helicopter Dock or Amphibious ship proposal apparently for 3 ships to be built and to be named Andrea Bafile class from around 2010 but now I cannot find this design again.
Do you guys heard about this?

The data I know about as follows:
Dimensions: 190 x 33 x 6,3 meters
Displacement: 20.000tons (standard)
Engines: around 27.200shp, 2 shafts
Range: 13.000km (7.000nm)
Speed: 37km/h (20knots) Maybe cruising speed?
Armaments:
2x1 76mm/62 OTO-Melara Super Rapid guns,
3x1 25mm/90 Oerlikon KBA CIWS,
12x helicopters, most likely EH-101 Merlins

 

[Tzoli]

And of course now that I tried to search for Fincantieri ships I've probably found the design:

Fincantieri | LHD 20000 t

The ships of this class are designed to ensure extremely efficient land, air and sea connections.

www.fincantieri.com

 

[archipeppe]

And of course now that I tried to search for Fincantieri ships I've probably found the design:

Fincantieri | LHD 20000 t

The ships of this class are designed to ensure extremely efficient land, air and sea connections.

www.fincantieri.com

Yes it is this one.
Despite the fact that the actual LHD Trieste was intended as replancement for the "Santi Class" (San Marco, San Giorgio and San Giusto) it is really too big for that job.
The LHD-20000 should takes their place, furthermore it comes in the same parameters of the Garibaldi that should be also replaced around 2022-25.

 

[Yellow Palace]

One interesting thing reported by Italian aerospace press of the 80's when Garibaldi was launched that there was also a second unit planned. Such sister ship was intended for Iran, obviously the fall of Shah vanished such purposes.

At one point or another, someone has claimed that the Shah wanted to buy most military equipment being built in the 1970s. It's probably wise to take all such claims with a rather large pinch of salt, in my experience.

 

[archipeppe]

One interesting thing reported by Italian aerospace press of the 80's when Garibaldi was launched that there was also a second unit planned. Such sister ship was intended for Iran, obviously the fall of Shah vanished such purposes.

At one point or another, someone has claimed that the Shah wanted to buy most military equipment being built in the 1970s. It's probably wise to take all such claims with a rather large pinch of salt, in my experience.

Yes, infact there were "rumors" on Italian press, never seen an official document about it.

 

[uk 75]

Indeed, The Shah was also interested in Sea Harriers and Invincibles. The only actual hardware ordered were 4 Spruance with AD fit that became the US Kidd class after 1979. The best Shah what if was the sale of two US carriers in Paul Erdmans thriller Crash of 79.

 

[archipeppe]

Indeed, The Shah was also interested in Sea Harriers and Invincibles. The only actual hardware ordered were 4 Spruance with AD fit that became the US Kidd class after 1979. The best Shah what if was the sale of two US carriers in Paul Erdmans thriller Crash of 79.

Effectively Iran was the only foreign customer of F14A Tomcat, they would make little sense without the Plan to have at least one big carrier.... Otherwise F15 would be the logical alternative.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Effectively Iran was the only foreign customer of F14A Tomcat, they would make little sense without the Plan to have at least one big carrier.... Otherwise F15 would be the logical alternative.

Not at all, the F-14 buy was because the Iranians really wanted the AWG-9/Phoenix combination for air defence. They looked at F-15s, and contemplated a split buy, but really the F-15 wasn't capable of being the interceptor they wanted.

 

[Kugelblitz]

"Enrico Fermi" is here somewhere. It was to be a 175x22m, 21kn support ship, carrying the same gun armament as Trieste, helicopters and nearly 7000t transferable fuel.
It probably only made sense as a trials ship for nuclear propulsion.

 

[archipeppe]

It probably only made sense as a trials ship for nuclear propulsion.

Correct, it was conceived as test article and logistic ship, because Navy felt that Parliament would never authorize so much Money only for a test ship.

 

[archipeppe]

 

[Hood]

The Enrico Fermi can be found here and a picture (probably same one as archipepe posted) here.

 

[Tzoli]

That is one heavily armed warship! Looks like a good example for an Amphibious assault ship.

 

[archipeppe]

Here it is the original Design 1092 released by Fincantieri during 1978, as it is possible to see there is no-skijump and the smokestack is placed right in the middle of the island rather than in rear position as actually is. In the original design it is possible to appreciate the similiarities with the Vosper design of 1976, except for the bigger dimension of the Italian ship,

 

[archipeppe]

From the same Interconair magazine article of 1978, here it is the Design 1092 hangar layout. At that times the only possible air asset was the Agust-Sikorsky SH-3D "Sea King", but it is interesting to spot also the alternative layout for the Sea Harrier rather than the actual AV-8B+

 

[helmutkohl]

didnt want the Korean carrier thread to go too far off topic about Italian ships, so I'll post here since its very interesting

I've noticed Trieste's islands look really different from the models and diagram. the rear island looks much taller now and blocky
any reason for the changes?
at least from an aesthetic view, the older concepts looked nicer
but would like to know the functional reasons

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

About italian projects I have these images:

 

[Julio Garay Terrazas]

I forget this image, but is too much contemporary...

 

[helmutkohl]

@archipeppe
do you know why they changed the new Trieste's island stucture from the model?

 

[archipeppe]

@archipeppe
do you know why they changed the new Trieste's island stucture from the model?

Honestly I don't know why the two islands once built are bigger that the original design...

 

[Firefinder]

@archipeppe
do you know why they changed the new Trieste's island stucture from the model?

Honestly I don't know why the two islands once built are bigger that the original design...

In all likely hood the designs was over opitimist on how much space a jet turbine up/down take needs and electrics with personal in the towers.

Then toss in some extra space for growth room.

Will not be the first time that happened.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Also, they might have needed to add some extra flag-related facilities and/or capabilities.

 

[Archibald]

"Enrico Fermi" is here somewhere. It was to be a 175x22m, 21kn support ship, carrying the same gun armament as Trieste, helicopters and nearly 7000t transferable fuel.
It probably only made sense as a trials ship for nuclear propulsion.

Looks like Italy very own PH75... imagine, had those been build and sailed together...
I'm more and more convinced there was a great missed opportunity of blending, together - Asturias, Garibaldi, PH75 and the Invincibles / Ocean... into an Eurocarrier with naval Harriers. On paper at least, it could have been a 9 ship fleet. For France it would be a matter of getting Harriers, first circa 1974 in place of the Super Etendard for attack, and perhaps later a SHAR variant to replace the Crusaders. This would have spared the Foch and Clemenceau tired catapults that were tricky right from 1980...

 

[helmutkohl]

@archipeppe
do you know why they changed the new Trieste's island stucture from the model?

Honestly I don't know why the two islands once built are bigger that the original design...

In all likely hood the designs was over opitimist on how much space a jet turbine up/down take needs and electrics with personal in the towers.

Then toss in some extra space for growth room.

Will not be the first time that happened.

not gonna lie, the actual version looks somehow, disproportional or off balance, with how huge the towers are relative to the deck. the model was much sleeker looking. but function trumps form