The Brough solution.....

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This gets a bit out there as more pure AH.
Assuming a Brough study along lines of B.141 NGTA '64-67) and B.146 ('67-69) only earlier to parallel NMBR.3 winner Kingston HS.1154. This starting mid-to-late '61) as opposed to real world.
Leaving project number aside we'll stick to NGTA as term.

High wing with LE and TE blow for good STOL, coupled with F4-like tail for lift/thrust pickup. Driven as back up to V/STOL.
Wrapping around either twin RB.153 for a scaled F4-like to big Jaguar-like appearance. Or around Medway or straight-through Bs100 type engine.

Post NMBR.3 OR.345 July '64 revised SR.250D for lower cost solution. Dropping V/STOL for STOL, Brough office design with Medway approved as sharing Medway with transport and alternative with Ol.22R sharing with TSR.2.

Post TSR.2 ccancellation. Decision to proceed joint system over F4K as projected costs 1.2 million equal then Spey F4.
Continuation of OL.22R, Bristol satisfied.

Kingston proceeds with Kestrel tripartite funding project. P1127, Kestrel dropped when tripartite lacks interest in further funding, despite USMC interest.

First flight by '66 service entry '68-69.

Reuse of TFR set for initial 70 MRI strike coupled with MMD and analogue INS cleared for 500lb and 1,000lb bombs, rocket pods and release of nuclear store. Just 12 T mkI added.
Second tranche 80 for RAF with full avionics setup, cleared for Martel. Wiring for Sidewinder and another 13 T MkII.

FAA multirole variant, FMICW, initial Red Top, but later Red Card AAM using A5 seeker. 60 initial and second tranche transferred to RAF.
No need for uprated mk4 catapult, or Mk13 arrestor gear. Upgrade for CVs limited to stores, and blast reflector cooling.

No 'Harrier', Kestrel trials aircraft remains a curiosity.
No Jaguar. Post supersonic trainer, BAC funded trainer.
No F4.
No Foxhunter.
Bristol remain, RR purchased by 1970.
 
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I like the idea (presumably you have the wonderful Roy Boot book with all this stuff in).
When I saw the drawings in there, my thoughts went in the same direction.
As I have just mentioned in another thread, the RAF and RN were not enthusiastic about British aircraft. Canadair Sabres, Boeing Washingtons and Lockheed Neptunes gave them a test for stuff that actually worked.
The F4 seemed modern without all the hassle of dealing with British companies. In contrast, Sea Vixen, Scimitar and Buccaneer S1 all arrived late and had many bugs to iron out.
There was no Marcel Dassault like figure to drive a project like this.
 
I seriously doubt that.
 
15 years ago I bought and red Tony Butler wonderful books. Loved both 141 and 146, modeled them, exactly from a Jaguar, and a Phantom (the irony !)

Bac P.141 indeed. As you said a nice in-between the Jaguar and Phantom. Small and modern like the former, but a powerful fighter like the later.
P.141 vs Phantom, would be awesome. P.141 advantages would be, a more modern airframe and better engines. J79 was excellent but a 50's turbojet. By contrast in the 60's GB had many very advanced turbofan engines, small very small and compact (RB.172 and many others).
From 1964-65 Phantom sold in very large numbers, despite its sheer cost and complexity and lack of agility. Half of the countries who bought that bird (the F-15 of its time) ended replacing it with a LWF (F-16 or F/A-18).
The P.141, more recent and with more economical engines, could be an interesting alternative.

There was no Marcel Dassault like figure to drive a project like this.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Well such a man needs to be a "political wizzard" as much as an engineer. Dassault had a knack to read the Armée de l'Air RFP, telling them "yeah, we will deliver" and then go to his engineers and said "That RFP is rubbish. Prepare Plan B, that is - privately funded, cheaper prototype alternative. Lower performance but lower cost because, you know - no bucks, no Buck Rogers."

It worked the followed way

1955 - "Mirage I and II, LWF for NATO. This is complete shit, prepares Mirage III-01 instead." 1400 build.
1965 - "Mirage F2, Mirage G, Mirage F3. They are cool, but they are toast. Prepare Mirage F1-01 alternative instead." 700 build.
1975 - "AFVG, Mirage G4, G8, ACF, 4000. They are toast. Prepare Mirage 2000 alternative instead." 600 build.

Read the tea leaves, they said.
 
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Assuming either Olympus OL.22R or Medway RB.142 Go ahead. Potential for license to Volvo for Swedish Viggen. However Swedish budgets being what they are argument raised in favour of straight out licensing of HSA Brough NGTA.

French AdA might show interest in after collapse of F2 or by AN, but budget is tight. Dassault is hostile and US cheaper.
But after AFVG collapse and Supersonic trainer abandoned, FR faced with go it alone, work with Germany or buy license.
Possible Breuget tie up....?

Naval variant exerts influence over CVA-01 process. Argument raised that a scaled back cheaper ship designed around NGTA and possible US strike alternative (A7) could deliver viable future force at some reduction in cost. Viable to operate S2 Buccaneers and Sea Vixen in interim.

Training of FAA and RAF faces possible merger for fast jets.

MkIII based around BAI mission.
 
But after AFVG collapse and Supersonic trainer abandoned, FR faced with go it alone, work with Germany or buy license.
Possible Breuget tie up....?
Click to expand...

I use to think, without Jaguar, Alphajet and Hawk either happen separately, earlier, or together.

France had no money for any twin jet aircraft except oddies - Mirage IV was funded by nuclear deterrent, Jaguar was a trainer / attack still with small turbofans... and that's it. Vautour was older, Rafale finally pulled it out by taking over the entire AdA / Aéronavale combat fleet (300 + 100).
Even if the Armée de l'Air is staunchly and completely deaf and blind to the obvious - AFVG, Tornado, G4, G8, ACF and 4000 were perfectly unaffordable. F1 and 2000 were, except by 1980 they were redundant (Super 530 interceptor).

Best option for France is Spey or TF306 Mirage F3 prototype, updated with a beefed up M53 for production circa 1971. Not only it blend F1 and 2000 redundancy into a single type, it is also a kind of "earlier F1-M53" that can sweep the Aéronavale and Belgium / Deal of the Century (two years before F-16 flies early 74, unlike poor F1-M53 which was brushed aside).
 
Nice ! Where did you got that ?

For the record the French Navy considered both Phantom and Crusader in '62 but went for the later. Basically Phantom on 25 000 - 40 000 tons carriers is doable but looking for trouble in regular service. HMS Hermes and Essex-class could do it, but it was avoided as much as possible, either through Crusaders (Essex) or Audacious class (for the RN). We went the Essex way because unlike RN and USN we had no other option. Had PA58 Verdun been build, it might have been different...
 
uk 75 said:
The elephant in the room....
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Briefly took tactical at 70 airframes, in aftermath of ending P1154. Soon handed to 1154 successor, Jaguar.
If option to proceed from NMBR.3 failure taken, then not on the cards for RAF.
It was RN FAA that was drooling over F4 and set requirements to make 1154 variant unworkable.
NGTA avoids key issues on unworkable, makes FAA imposition inevitable.

Program options on engine give government choice on reward for RR or BSEL. Medway on STOL transport, Olympus on TSR.2

Radar FMICW set progressing, along with AAM seeker at this time. Package into NGTA always on cards.

Project costs unlikely to be projected at 1154's 1.5 million. More likely equal or less than F4K estimate of 1.2 million.
Likely more than Spey Crusader, but less than F4. Since engine funded from transport or TSR.2.
Unlikely to use part German owned RB
153. More likely a twin would have had RB.172, which would be the 13,000lb version.
 
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uk 75 said:
en.m.wikipedia.org

The Plane Makers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
I dimly remember this from my childhood. Patrick Wymark, the actor who appeared also in the Gerry Anderson movie Doppleganger, would play my British Marcel Dassault.
Click to expand...
I vaguely remember him playing the same character in a repeat of The Power Game in the early days of Channel Four.

Amongst other parts he was Trafford Leigh-Mallory in the Battle of Britain and Colonel Wyatt Turner in Where Eagle's Dare.

His daughter Jane Wymark played Joyce Barnaby in Midsummer Murders and when I checked Wikipaedia I discovered that she was also in the 1970s version of Poldark.

Half seriously... perhaps Gerry Anderson, Derek Meddings and Brian Johnson would have designed better replacements for the Canberra, Hunter, Sea Vixen, Hastings and Beverley than than BAC and Hawker Siddeley did with the HS.681, P.1154 and TSR.2 which would also have been in service on time and at cost.
 
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