The best way to properly prepare Brazil militarily for an actual Lobster War Against France In Late 1964?

T

TheRejectionist

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
2 February 2022
Messages
232
Reaction score
62
What would the best equipment they could get before hostilities start ? Even experimental or prototypes could count.
 
TheRejectionist said:
What would the best equipment they could get before hostilities start ? Even experimental or prototypes could count.
Click to expand...
Spend millions on funding rabid PETA supporters in France?

More seriously, convince US politicians that there's a communist regime-supported guerrilla movement the defeat of which needs supersonic strike aircraft and long-range missiles to defeat
 
Last edited:
1635yankee said:
TheRejectionist said:
What would the best equipment they could get before hostilities start ? Even experimental or prototypes could count.
Click to expand...
Spend millions on funding rabid PETA supporters in France?

More seriously, convince US politicians that there's a communist regime-supported guerrilla movement the defeat of which needs supersonic strike aircraft and long-range missiles to defeat
Click to expand...
That's actually simple... Correct me If I am mistaken but I do remember from history books that many times that US intelligence was pretty much gullible to what they were said or heard and took information at face value without much investigating or questioning the source of the information.
Dilandu said:
1635yankee said:
More seriously, convince US politicians that there's a communist regime-supported guerrilla movement the defeat of which needs supersonic strike aircraft and long-range missiles to defeat
Click to expand...
One problem: in 1964, US didn't exactly have any non-nuclear long-range missiles.
Click to expand...

So what you would suggest ?
 
Considering the times, put some people in prison for treason and claim that democracy was threatened, that should get the USA involved. Not sure what level apart from not much but the OP is a bit out of headline topics for most of the world.
 
TheRejectionist said:
So what you would suggest ?
Click to expand...
As I said: try to make pals with USSR on basic of "opposing French colonial revanchism" or something like that. It may not work, of course - depend on many factors, like relations between USSR and France at this point (my knowledge here is not comprehensive). But doing it right, there is a chance to get some hardware, that could actually make France hesitate.

The optimal result would be secure a dealt for a squadron of Tu-16KS missile-carrying bombers and KS-1 missiles. Failing that, there is a possibility of buying Tu-28T torpedo bombers with RAT high-altitude torpedoes. Those are obsolete, but still workable machines.
 
Tagging @Michel Van here... get the French Vautours shooting down Leonid Brezhnev over Algeria in 1960-62 (can't remember the exact date, but it nearly happened). Should enrage USSR against the French.

As I said: try to make pals with USSR on basic of "opposing French colonial revanchism" or something like that.
Click to expand...

There was a Brazilian nutjob just before the 1964 military coup (can't remember the exact name - Joaquino ?) who wanted to invade French Guiana circa 1962. There is your casus belli.

Meanwhile as early as 1963 Général Aubinière (one of the founding father of CNES, Diamant, Europa, Ariane...) had visited French Guiana and became convinced it was almost perfect place to launch rockets. This all of sudden put backward and empoverished French Guiana into the spotlight.
(first launch from Kourou happened in 1968 with a Veronique sounding rocket - so it went very quickly).

The Brazilian better have to hurry up because Foch and Clemenceau are entering service, 1961-64. Plus value of French Guiana will soon skyrocket (lame pun intended) with Kourou launch base.
 
Last edited:
Assuming a Conservative government in London the UK sells Brazil HMS Belfast and completes the unfinished carrier Leviathan to operate Seahawks and Venoms. There were a couple of other old cruisers still around in 1963.
The UK had A and T class conventional submarines it could transfer quickly.
The UK has plenty of Hunters and Canberra's it can provide plus early mark Lightnings. We could even send some Vulcan or Valiant B1.
Only a few years later the UK supplies the Niteroi class frigates so the above should be quite feasible.
 
Archibald said:
Tagging @Michel Van here... get the French Vautours shooting down Leonid Brezhnev over Algeria in 1960-62 (can't remember the exact date, but it nearly happened). Should enrage USSR against the French.
Click to expand...
That was on February 9, 1961.

Archibald said:
There was a Brazilian nutjob just before the 1964 military coup
Click to expand...
That was either Jânio Quadros or João Goulart, but also the military junta wanted French Guiana

First Brazil need nukes, in 1964 France is a nuclear power

But even if Brazil army has equipment to invade French Guiana
The french foreign legion will turn Guiana into hell hole, were Brazil soldiers walk, in but never return.
Next to that, Brazil traffic control will learn how LOW french navy aircraft can fly a Attacks...

oh by the way, who is enemies of Brazil in 1964, were France can ally with ?
 
Archibald said:
Tagging @Michel Van here... get the French Vautours shooting down Leonid Brezhnev over Algeria in 1960-62 (can't remember the exact date, but it nearly happened). Should enrage USSR against the French.

As I said: try to make pals with USSR on basic of "opposing French colonial revanchism" or something like that.
Click to expand...

There was a Brazilian nutjob just before the 1964 military coup (can't remember the exact name - Joaquino ?) who wanted to invade French Guiana circa 1962. There is your casus belli.

Meanwhile as early as 1963 Général Aubinière (one of the founding father of CNES, Diamant, Europa, Ariane...) had visited French Guiana and became convinced it was almost perfect place to launch rockets. This all of sudden put backward and empoverished French Guiana into the spotlight.
(first launch from Kourou happened in 1968 with a Veronique sounding rocket - so it went very quickly).

The Brazilian better have to hurry up because Foch and Clemenceau are entering service, 1961-64. Plus value of French Guiana will soon skyrocket (lame pun intended) with Kourou launch base.
Click to expand...
@Archibald Interesting!

uk 75 said:
Assuming a Conservative government in London the UK sells Brazil HMS Belfast and completes the unfinished carrier Leviathan to operate Seahawks and Venoms. There were a couple of other old cruisers still around in 1963.
The UK had A and T class conventional submarines it could transfer quickly.
The UK has plenty of Hunters and Canberra's it can provide plus early mark Lightnings. We could even send some Vulcan or Valiant B1.
Only a few years later the UK supplies the Niteroi class frigates so the above should be quite feasible.
Click to expand...
Could the UK sell something more contemporary?

What would happen if Brazil decides to buy stuff from the USSR?

Archibald said:
Argentina ? Chile ?
Click to expand...

In my opinion as a Brazilian person, it is more likely they fight each other : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_conflict the last "conflict" we had with a neighbor was the Acrean Revolution at the beginning of the century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Acre

Michel Van said:
Archibald said:
Tagging @Michel Van here... get the French Vautours shooting down Leonid Brezhnev over Algeria in 1960-62 (can't remember the exact date, but it nearly happened). Should enrage USSR against the French.
Click to expand...
That was on February 9, 1961.

Archibald said:
There was a Brazilian nutjob just before the 1964 military coup
Click to expand...
That was either Jânio Quadros or João Goulart, but also the military junta wanted French Guiana

First Brazil need nukes, in 1964 France is a nuclear power

But even if Brazil army has equipment to invade French Guiana
The french foreign legion will turn Guiana into hell hole, were Brazil soldiers walk, in but never return.
Next to that, Brazil traffic control will learn how LOW french navy aircraft can fly a Attacks...

oh by the way, who is enemies of Brazil in 1964, were France can ally with ?
Click to expand...
@Michel Van https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...-members-called-it-quits-in-early-1943.39475/ in my timeline France is still over-stretched and overconfident due to a lack of Suez War.
 
Assuming a war in 1964 between France and Brazil in 1964 the equipment available from the UK is pretty much as I list above.
The RN was only just getting County class destroyers and the three Tiger class cruisers were still regarded as key units. It was disposing of lots of WW2 vintage escorts and subs.
The RAF was similarly only just getting Lightning MK3 and Vulcan BMk2 in 1962 so it could only spare Canberra's and Hunters plus some early mk Lightnings.

However, in 1964 France has only a couple of Tartar equipped destroyers and the two cruisers are gun armed like the Tigers. The Etendard is in service but the Crusaders?
Though France has the bomb it has no delivery systems in service unlike the UK V force.
A deployment of UK forces to Brazil similar to that in Singapore in return for massive contracts and after yet another French "Non" to EEC membership might happen.. V bombers detached to Sao Paolo would pretty much halt any French moves.
 
TheRejectionist said:
in my timeline France is still over-stretched and overconfident due to a lack of Suez War.
Click to expand...
Seems there a British Prime minister is not on Speed...

On France nuclear armament, in 1964 has France capacity for "delivery"
like Mirage IIIC who can carry the AN-11 nuclear bomb.
the Navy Étendard IV can't carry the AN-11 to heavy, but the french Vought F-8 Crusader is able.
They operate from new carriers Clemenceau and Foch,
and in October 1964 France has the Mirage IV bomber in service.
They could operate from South America from nation ally to France or from Africa with air refueling
and drop 7264 kg of bombs or one AN-11 nuclear bomb (lower bomb load 1500 kg over Africa with air refueling)
 
Sure about the Mirage IIIC ? Crusader I don't know either. But VAUTOURS - yes, they certainly could carry a nuke although their navigation and bombing system was antiquated: WWII era Norden ! Vautours can also be used as tankers.

The Mirage IVA first took alert in Mont de Marsan in October 1964. Both C-135FR and Crusaders were also on their way to France.
 
It is interesting to note that in 1964, the Brazilian Air Force did not have swept wing fighters. They only had ~60 F. Meteor 8s, about 30 F-80C-10-LOs and some T-33As !

F-80C Shooting Stars of 1°/4° GAV "Pacau" Sqn & Meteors F.8 of 2°/1° GAVCA "Pif-Paf" Sqn of Brazilian Air Force.
Untitled.png
 
Last edited:
Dilandu said:
TheRejectionist said:
So what you would suggest ?
Click to expand...
As I said: try to make pals with USSR on basic of "opposing French colonial revanchism" or something like that. It may not work, of course - depend on many factors, like relations between USSR and France at this point (my knowledge here is not comprehensive). But doing it right, there is a chance to get some hardware, that could actually make France hesitate.

The optimal result would be secure a dealt for a squadron of Tu-16KS missile-carrying bombers and KS-1 missiles. Failing that, there is a possibility of buying Tu-28T torpedo bombers with RAT high-altitude torpedoes. Those are obsolete, but still workable machines.
Click to expand...
...but that would get the US involved on the side of the French, as just about anything the USSR supported, the US was against. Brazil needs to get the US on-side or, at the very least, neutral. The best way to do that is for the Brazilian government to claim good anti-communist credentials by, say, imprisoning and torturing a few democracy advocates and union organizers (it worked in Chile and Argentina!) and then convince the US that they need to be heavily armed to defend themselves against communist guerrillas[1] infiltrating and getting support from Radical Party[2] members in French Guiana. They don't need to exist; it's probably better if they don't.

------------

[1] They don't need to actually exist; it's probably better they don't. A fictitious threat can never be suppressed.

[2] Note that the French Radical Party was a center-right party at this time, but isn't the name just too scary?
 
the French Radical Party
Click to expand...
De Gaulle had a good one about that political party. "Quoi, il existe encore ? Ils pourraient tenir leur congrès national dans une cabine téléphonique." Translation "The Radical Party ? didn't even knew it still existed. They could hold their national congress in a phone booth. "
 
From Wikipedia :
The presidency of Juscelino Kubitschek marked a certain return to calm, but the election in 1961 of Jânio da Silva Quadros plunged the country back into instability. Wanting to rebalance the country's foreign policy, he declared himself in favour of resuming diplomatic relations with the USSR and its "Iron Curtain" allies. He decorated Che Guevara - then minister in Cuba - with the Order of the Southern Cross. This policy irritated Washington, its European allies and the Brazilian right, especially the members of the UDN who had supported him during his election. Quadros was forced to resign on 25 August 1961 and was replaced by his vice-president João Goulart.
Click to expand...
During this period, the Brazilian Air Force could have purchased MiG-15/17/19 and Il-28 from the Soviet Union without too many problems, as Jânio da Silva Quadros was pro-USSR anyway.
 
F.L. said:
From Wikipedia :
The presidency of Juscelino Kubitschek marked a certain return to calm, but the election in 1961 of Jânio da Silva Quadros plunged the country back into instability. Wanting to rebalance the country's foreign policy, he declared himself in favour of resuming diplomatic relations with the USSR and its "Iron Curtain" allies. He decorated Che Guevara - then minister in Cuba - with the Order of the Southern Cross. This policy irritated Washington, its European allies and the Brazilian right, especially the members of the UDN who had supported him during his election. Quadros was forced to resign on 25 August 1961 and was replaced by his vice-president João Goulart.
Click to expand...
During this period, the Brazilian Air Force could have purchased MiG-15/17/19 and Il-28 from the Soviet Union without too many problems, as Jânio da Silva Quadros was pro-USSR anyway.
Click to expand...

And the same guy wanted to invade French Guiana. So I think the OP has his perfect nutjob to start that war: Junta - Falklands style.
 
In any case, in terms of aviation, I don't think the US would have delivered advanced fighters to Brazil. They could have delivered F-86Fs, maybe F-86Ks, but certainly not aircraft capable of matching the Mirage III.
 
F.L. said:
In any case, in terms of aviation, I don't think the US would have delivered advanced fighters to Brazil. They could have delivered F-86Fs, maybe F-86Ks, but certainly not aircraft capable of matching the Mirage III.
Click to expand...
The US could have delivered F-86s to Brazil - they were delivering them to other South American countries in the same timeframe they delivered the F-80Cs, that is, 1958-9, on what still was the JK administration. Yet, they chose to give Brazil F-80s instead of Sabres....

Note that, theoretically, they don't need to match the Mirage III - but the Super Mystère is beyond the F-86s as well. If they are going to lock horns with the Aéronavale, the match is easier: Aquillons, with Étendards entering service by 1963
Archibald said:
And the same guy wanted to invade French Guiana. So I think the OP has his perfect nutjob to start that war: Junta - Falklands style.
Click to expand...
The Armed Forces were going to depose Jânio if he ordered the invasion of French Guyana.
F.L. said:
During this period, the Brazilian Air Force could have purchased MiG-15/17/19 and Il-28 from the Soviet Union without too many problems, as Jânio da Silva Quadros was pro-USSR anyway.
Click to expand...
Er, not quite pro-USSR - but he was willing to deal with them. He was trying to thread the needle with a conservative domestic policy and a radical(it's called the 'Independent Foreign Policy' by historiography on the subject) foreign policy.

Jânio could try to buy MiGs(buying MiG-19s and -21 would result in an epic s***storm), but he would be setting himself for a coup(and the Air Force was - still is - the most pro-US of the Brazilian Armed Forces).
 
The French shooting down Brezhnev plane WITH Janio Quadros presidency with Soviet weapons seems the best bet. To be safe from a coup Quadros needs the hostilities to be started by France.

It would be a fun scenario when a Conservative government is helped by the Soviet Union of all countries.

I do think Quadros can pull it off even though the high improbability, but it is not impossible like having Star Wars level of tech.
 
gral_rj said:
The US could have delivered F-86s to Brazil - they were delivering them to other South American countries in the same timeframe they delivered the F-80Cs, that is, 1958-9, on what still was the JK administration. Yet, they chose to give Brazil F-80s instead of Sabres....
Click to expand...
The U.S. policy for fighter jet exports to South America was to export F-86Fs as frontline fighters and F-80Cs as replacements for F-47s fleets. Both new and refurbished aircraft were offered to every F-47D operator in the region. ;)
 
Last edited:
F.L. said:
gral_rj said:
The US could have delivered F-86s to Brazil - they were delivering them to other South American countries in the same timeframe they delivered the F-80Cs, that is, 1958-9, on what still was the JK administration. Yet, they chose to give Brazil F-80s instead of Sabres....
Click to expand...
The U.S. policy for fighter jet exports to South America was to export F-86Fs as frontline fighters and F-80Cs as replacements for F-47s fleets. ;)
Click to expand...
Didn't know that, and it makes some sense.
 
In addition, the frontline fighter of the Brazilian AF was the Meteor F.8, received in 1953, 27 of which were in flying condition in 1960. In 1962, the FAB had a dozen T-33s used for close-air-suport, 48 additional aircraft being delivered in 1965, too late to participate in the "Lobster war". Aditionally , 33 F-80C-10-LO were delivered to the FAB in 1958 and 1960. :)

I think that the Hawker Hunter would have been a good solution for the modernization of the FAB because England had already been selected in the early 1950s as a source of supply, happy to open a new market. Moreover, during the Israel/Arab confrontations, the Hunter proved to be a tough opponent for the Mirage III. And probably some Canberra could have been purchased as well.
For me, England seems to be the best solution for Brazil AF to get modern aircraft without buying from the Soviet Union.
 
Last edited:
F.L. said:
In addition, the frontline fighter of the Brazilian AF was the Meteor F.8, received in 1953, 27 of which were in flying condition in 1960. In 1962, the FAB had a dozen T-33s used for close-air-suport, 48 additional aircraft being delivered in 1965, too late to participate in the "Lobster war". Aditionally , 33 F-80A-10-LO were delivered to the FAB in 1958 and 1960. :)

I think that the Hawker Hunter would have been a good solution for the modernization of the FAB because England had already been selected in the early 1950s as a source of supply, happy to open a new market. Moreover, during the Israel/Arab confrontations, the Hunter proved to be a tough opponent for the Mirage III. And probably some Canberra could have been purchased as well.
For me, England seems to be the best solution for Brazil AF to get modern aircraft without buying from the Soviet Union.
Click to expand...

Plus Chile got Hawker Hunters in the early 1970's. They were the planes that bombed the shit out of the Moneda palace and Allende a dark day of September 1973...
 
Archibald said:
F.L. said:
In addition, the frontline fighter of the Brazilian AF was the Meteor F.8, received in 1953, 27 of which were in flying condition in 1960. In 1962, the FAB had a dozen T-33s used for close-air-suport, 48 additional aircraft being delivered in 1965, too late to participate in the "Lobster war". Aditionally , 33 F-80C-10-LO were delivered to the FAB in 1958 and 1960. :)

I think that the Hawker Hunter would have been a good solution for the modernization of the FAB because England had already been selected in the early 1950s as a source of supply, happy to open a new market. Moreover, during the Israel/Arab confrontations, the Hunter proved to be a tough opponent for the Mirage III. And probably some Canberra could have been purchased as well.
For me, England seems to be the best solution for Brazil AF to get modern aircraft without buying from the Soviet Union.
Click to expand...

Plus Chile got Hawker Hunters in the early 1970's. They were the planes that bombed the shit out of the Moneda palace and Allende a dark day of September 1973...
Click to expand...
Peru AF receved Hunter Mk.52 in 1956.
www.revistaaerea.com

Hawker Hunters over Peru

Hawker test pilot DUNCAN SIMPSON recalls a posting to South America in 1956 to oversee the introduction of the Hunter Mk 52 into Peruvian Air Force service — “five of the most difficult months of m…
www.revistaaerea.com
 
Last edited:
@Dilandu found this https://p-d-m.livejournal.com/459913.html I honestly do not know how accurate my browser translator and from my understanding you are a native speaker of Russian (?).

@F.L. @uk 75 @Archibald @Michel Van how about a third country or party selling the equipment to Brazil ? I do remember from my history books that the USSR had an habit of doing that to avoid sanctions and/or suspicion.
 
TheRejectionist said:
@Dilandu found this https://p-d-m.livejournal.com/459913.html I honestly do not know how accurate my browser translator and from my understanding you are a native speaker of Russian (?).

@F.L. @uk 75 @Archibald @Michel Van how about a third country or party selling the equipment to Brazil ? I do remember from my history books that the USSR had an habit of doing that to avoid sanctions and/or suspicion.
Click to expand...

tanks-encyclopedia.com

Assault Amphibian Personnel Carrier LVTPX-12 - Tank Encyclopedia

The Assault Amphibian Personnel Carrier LVTPX-12 was a prototype vehicle that was put into production as the LVTP-7.
tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
tanks-encyclopedia.com

Ridlon’s Main Battle Tank - Tank Encyclopedia

Ridlon’s Main Battle Tank was designed by Everett Ridlon in the early 1960s. The design only existed as rough sketches.
tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
tanks-encyclopedia.com

M-70 Main Battle Tank - Tank Encyclopedia

This design was to eschew conventional suspension, layout, and armament and produce a missile carrier capable of destroying any future Soviet threat.
tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
tanks-encyclopedia.com

90mm Gun Tank T69 - Tank Encyclopedia

The T69 Medium Tank was a development on the hull of the failed T42 project, featuring an oscillating turret and a 90mm autoloading gun.
tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
tanks-encyclopedia.com

76mm Gun Tank T92 - Tank Encyclopedia

Two prototypes of the T92 light tank were designed and tested in the 1950s, but never went beyond this stage. They featured many innovations.
tanks-encyclopedia.com tanks-encyclopedia.com
en.wikipedia.org

T69 (tank) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Cadillac Gage Commando M706 (1963)

Cadillac Gage Commando M706 wheeled armoured personal carrier
tanks-encyclopedia.com

In the meantime, here stuff I found while searching for my timeline. Most don't fit the time period or just barely.
 
F.L. said:
TheRejectionist said:
@F.L. @uk 75 @Archibald @Michel Van how about a third country or party selling the equipment to Brazil ? I do remember from my history books that the USSR had an habit of doing that to avoid sanctions and/or suspicion.
Click to expand...
Yes, Czechoslovakia for example, as for Egypt.
Click to expand...

I also considered maybe Japan exporting their variants of USA aircraft to Brazil, the one below seems to fit the timeframe :

http://hikokikumo.net/His-Mil-F104-000index.htm



f-104j-eiko-702-jasdf-lw-108.jpg
1956航空自衛隊が次期戦闘機の選定作業を開始
1957/02航空幕僚監部が機種決定に関する要望書を内閣に提出　速度マッハ2、高度18000ｍ等
1957/05国防会議において次期戦闘機800機分の予算580億円を決定
1958/08防衛庁技研の永盛義夫空将補を団長とする調査団をアメリカに派遣
ロッキード、ノースアメリカン、コンベア、ノースロップ、グラマン各社で調査
1958/08グラマン社がF11F-1の選定に向けて工作開始　ロッキード社との間で激しい争いが始まる
1959/01佐薙航空幕僚長を団長とする調査団をアメリカに派遣　松前防衛部長らがF-104Bに試乗
報告データでは、グラマンF11F-1が有利であった
1959/04/12国防会議において次期戦闘機の機種をグラマンF11F-1に内定
1959/08/19F-X国産価格検討会議開催　以後国会でグラマン：ロッキード論争が続く
1959/08源田航空幕僚長を団長調査団をアメリカに派遣　木村秀政氏ら民間人を含む
F-102、F-104、N156Fに試乗　
1959/11/6国防会議において次期戦闘機の機種をロッキードF-104C（F-104J）と決定
1960/01/26閣議でF-104Jの価格決定
　　　　総額968億円　日本側負担698億円　米側負担270億円（7500万ドル）
　　　　1機当たり4億3200万円　予備部品を含むと4億8384万円
1960/04/15藤山外相とマッカーサー駐日大使が米側負担270億円（7500万ドル）の公文書交換
1960/06官民の調査団がロッキード社バーバンク工場で国産化の審査を実施
1960/07ロッキード社バーバンク工場でF-104Jモックアップを審査
1960/07/22防衛庁が新三菱重工業と川崎航空機に国産準備を指示
1960/08神吉三佐らがエドワーズ基地で訓練開始
1960/09航空自衛隊がJ79-GE-7をJ79-GE-11Aに変更、アレスティングフック装備に仕様を変更
1960/11実験航空隊長らを西独に派遣　F-104Gの運用状況を調査
1960/11/06防衛庁防衛一課課長らをバッジシステム調査のためアメリカに派遣
1960/11/11官民によるF-104J国産化委員会設立
1960/11/17防衛庁が三菱電機、日本電気、東京通信機にF-104電子機器生産を内示
1960/10航空情報1960年12月号国内ニュース
His-Mil-F104-History-AV196012-F104-EngineFuck.jpg
1961/03/31正式契約　　新三菱重工　F-104 200機481億円、石川島播磨重工　J79 160基 167億円、各社電子機器59億円　計698億円
1961/05/11バーバンク工場でF-104J初号機（3001）ロールアウト　地上試験開始
1961/06/30バーバンク工場でF-104J初号機（3001）初飛行　チャールス セッチェン操縦士
1961/05ノックダウン生産用の部品第一便が名古屋港に泊着
新三菱大江工場と川崎航空機岐阜工場へ搬入　
1961/07操縦士、整備要員がパームデール基地やジョージア基地で訓練開始
1961/11米空軍F-104生産状況調査団が三菱、川崎などを調査
1961/12/21現地でF-104J（3002）とF-104DJ（5401、5402）を新三菱重工が受領
ロッキード籍のF-104J（3001、3003）と共に現地訓練に使用
1962/02/08フライングタイガー機によりF-104J（3002）とF-104DJ（5401）が名古屋空港に到着
1962/03/08F-104J（3002）が26-8501のナンバーで初飛行　ロ社ロス ディール操縦士
1962/04/01新三菱重工小牧工場でF-104Jの航空自衛隊納入式挙行　
神吉三佐が26-8501で飛行を披露　
1962/04/01小牧基地に実験航空隊所属の臨時F-104訓練飛行班を編成　
1962/09/17F-104J1機とF-104DJ2機が小牧から千歳基地に初移動　以後生産分が続く
1963/03/05千歳基地に第2航空団第201飛行隊新編、F-104マザースコードロンとなる
1963/11/03F-104J　50機継続生産を決定
1964/03/31新田原基地に第５航空団第202飛行隊新編 　Ｆ-104の初の実戦部隊
1964/06/25千歳基地に第2航空団第203飛行隊新編
1964/10/01第５航空団第202飛行隊　アラート任務に就く
1964/12/01新田原基地に第5航空団第204飛行隊新編、F-104マザースコードロンを引き継ぎ
　第２航空団　アラート任務に就く
1965/03/14三菱重工業　F-104J　200機完納式
1965/03/31小松基地に第6航空団第205飛行隊新編
1965/12/08F-104J　第2次生産分30機を契約　149億円
1965/12/20百里基地に第７航空団第206飛行隊新編
1966/03/31百里基地に第７航空団第207飛行隊新編
1974/10/01第2航空団第201飛行隊解散（後にＦ-4ＥＪによる第201飛行隊復活）
1978/11/30第７航空団第206飛行隊解散
1981/06/30第6航空団第205飛行隊解散
1982/12/21第５航空団第202飛行隊　Ｆ-104からＦ-15Ｊに機種改編
1984/03/24第2航空団第203飛行隊　Ｆ-104からＦ-15Ｊに機種改編
1985/03/02第5航空団第204飛行隊　Ｆ-104からＦ-15Ｊに機種改編
1986/03/19第７航空団第207飛行隊解散

Translation :

1956 The Air Self-Defence Force begins work on the selection of the next fighter aircraft.
1957/02 The Air Staff Office submits a request to the Cabinet for a decision on aircraft type, including a speed of Mach 2 and an altitude of 18,000 metres.
1957/05 Defence Council decides on a budget of 58 billion yen for 800 next-generation fighter aircraft.
1958/08 A survey mission led by Assistant Chief of the Defence Agency Giken, Yoshio Nagamori, is dispatched to the USA.
Survey conducted by Lockheed, North American, Convair, Northrop and Grumman companies.
1958/08 Grumman begins manoeuvres to select F11F-1. Fierce dispute with Lockheed begins.
1959/01 A survey mission headed by Air Chief Marshal Sanagi is dispatched to the USA, where Matsumae, Director General of the Defence Department, and others test drive the F-104B.
Reported data favoured the Grumman F11F-1.
1959/04/12 At the Defence Council, the next fighter aircraft was unofficially selected as the Grumman F11F-1.
1959/08/19 F-X domestic price review meeting held.
1959/08 A survey mission led by Air Chief Marshal Genda is dispatched to the USA, including civilians such as Hidemasa Kimura.
Test-drove F-102s, F-104s and N156Fs.
1959/11/6 Defence Council decides on Lockheed F-104C (F-104J) as the next fighter aircraft type.
26/01/1960 Cabinet meeting decides price of F-104J.
　　　　Total cost ¥96.8 billion Japanese share ¥69.8 billion US share ¥27 billion ($75 million)
　　　　432 million yen per aircraft, 483.84 million yen including spare parts
1960/04/15 Foreign Minister Fujiyama and Japanese Ambassador to Japan MacArthur exchange official documents on the US burden of ¥27 billion ($75 million).
1960/06 Public-private survey team examines domestic production at Lockheed's Burbank plant.
1960/07 F-104J mock-up examined at Lockheed's Burbank plant
1960/07/22 Defence Agency orders Shin Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Aircraft to prepare for domestic production
1960/08 Training begins at Edwards AFB by Capt Kamiyoshi and others
1960/09 Air Self-Defence Force changes J79-GE-7 to J79-GE-11A, specification changed to include arresting hook equipment
1960/11 Experimental Air Force chief and others dispatched to West Germany to investigate F-104G operations
1960/11/06 Dispatches Chief of Defence Division 1 and others to the USA to investigate badge systems
1960/11/11 Public-private F-104J domestic production committee established
1960/11/17 Defence Agency informs Mitsubishi Electric, NEC and Tokyo Tsushinki of F-104 electronic equipment production
1960/10 Aeronautical Information December 1960 Domestic News

1961/03/31 Formal contract signed: 200 new Mitsubishi Heavy F-104s, 48.1 billion yen; 160 J79s from Ishikawajima-Harima Heavy Industries, 16.7 billion yen; electronic equipment from each company, 5.9 billion yen; total 69.8 billion yen
1961/05/11 First F-104J (3001) rolled out at Burbank plant; ground tests started
1961/06/30 First F-104J (3001) first flight at Burbank plant Pilot Charles Setchen
1961/05 First flight of knockdown production parts arrived overnight at Nagoya Port
Delivered to Shin Mitsubishi Oe Works and Kawasaki Aircraft Gifu Works
1961/07 Pilots and maintenance personnel begin training at Palmdale AFB and Georgia AFB
1961/11 USAF F-104 production status survey team surveyed Mitsubishi, Kawasaki and other aircraft.
1961/12/21 F-104J (3002) and F-104DJ (5401, 5402) received there by New Mitsubishi Heavy Industries.
Used for local training with Lockheed-registered F-104Js (3001, 3003).
1962/02/08 F-104J (3002) and F-104DJ (5401) arrived at Nagoya Airport by Flying Tiger aircraft.
1962/03/08 F-104J (3002) first flight with number 26-8501 Pilot Ross Deal, Rosha
1962/04/01 F-104J delivery ceremony held at the new Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Komaki Works.
Piloted by Capt. Kamiyoshi III in flight by number 26-8501.
1962/04/01 Temporary F-104 training squadron attached to Experimental Air Wing is formed at Komaki Air Base
1962/09/17 One F-104J and two F-104DJ first moved from Komaki to Chitose AB.
1963/03/05 No. 2 Wing No. 201 Squadron newly formed at Chitose AB, becoming F-104 Mother Squadron.
1963/11/03 Decision made to continue production of 50 F-104Js
1964/03/31 Newly formed No. 202 Squadron of the 5th Air Wing at Nittahara Air Base, the first operational F-104 squadron
25/06/1964 Newly formed 203rd Wing, 2nd Wing, at Chitose Air Base
1964/10/01 No. 202 Squadron, 5th Wing, on alert mission
01/12/1964 New No. 204 Squadron, 5th Wing, takes over F-104 Mother Scordron at Nittahara Air Base
　 2nd Wing Alert mission.
1965/03/14 Mitsubishi Heavy Industries F-104J 200 aircraft completion ceremony
1965/03/31 New 205th Wing, 6th Wing, at Komatsu Air Base
1965/12/08 F-104J 2nd production contract for 30 aircraft worth 14.9 billion yen
1965/12/20 Establishment of 206th Wing, 7th Wing, at Momuri Air Base
1966/03/31 Establishment of the 207th Wing of the 7th Air Wing at Momuri Air Base
1974/10/01 No. 201 Squadron of the 2nd Wing disbanded (later the No. 201 Squadron was revived with F-4EJs)
1978/11/30 No. 206 Squadron of the 7th Wing is disbanded
1981/06/30 205th Wing, 6th Wing disbanded
1982/12/21 No. 202 Squadron, 5th Wing converted from F-104s to F-15Js
1984/03/24 No. 203 Squadron, 2nd Wing, converted from F-104 to F-15J
1985/03/02 204th Wing, 5th Wing, converted from F-104 to F-15J
19/03/1986 No. 207 Squadron, 7th Wing disbanded
 

Similar threads

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom