Supersonic air combat

[Mike Pryce]

Does anyone know if there has ever been an air combat engagement that depended on supersonic speed, to get to the fight, to win the fight, or to escape the fight?


If so, what war, what planes etc?



I am looking to help with a presentation I am doing having been asked 'how much extra have we had to pay for supersonic capability and how much use has it been'?


Good question, and as Google has failed to give me a quick and easy answer I thought I'd ask the experts.

 

[starviking]

Does anyone know if there has ever been an air combat engagement that depended on supersonic speed, to get to the fight, to win the fight, or to escape the fight?


If so, what war, what planes etc?



I am looking to help with a presentation I am doing having been asked 'how much extra have we had to pay for supersonic capability and how much use has it been'?


Good question, and as Google has failed to give me a quick and easy answer I thought I'd ask the experts.

No expert, but in time-critical intercepts supersonic speed would surely be useful. Perhaps some of the tussles between Communist China and Taiwan, and Israel and its neigbours could illuminate the subject

 

[lastdingo]

Does anyone know if there has ever been an air combat engagement that depended on supersonic speed, to get to the fight, to win the fight, or to escape the fight?


If so, what war, what planes etc?

I remember reports about Arab MiG-25 reconnaissance planes overflying Israel and F-4s being unable to intercept. Both were/went supersonic during the action, obviously.

F-14s were meant to go supersonic to intercept bombers as early as possible (as far away from the CVBG as possible).

Tornados and other aircraft went into dives over Kosovo to escape SA-6 batteries going active below them. Such dives certainly were supersonic.

 

[weirc]

Please see..


http://theaviationist.com/2014/01/29/f15-vs-mig-23/


Colin

 

[sferrin]

Anybody interested in the topic should read this:

http://www.amazon.com/Debrief-Complete-History-Engagements-Present/dp/0764327852

A real eye-opener. Makes one realize how laughable it is when you see people boasting about how "X aircraft has 10 missiles and will be able to knock down aircraft from 80 miles away" or some such.

 

[Mike Pryce]

Sferrin - it's in the library at work so I am off to get it!


Weirc - thanks. Not clear if it was gravity or the afterburners that made it supersonic it seems.


lastdingo - I had not thought of recce, but that is the one mission it does make sense in.

 

[sferrin]

Sferrin - it's in the library at work so I am off to get it!

The F-15s running down Mig-25s on the deck was a pretty interesting encounter.

 

[Jeb]

Sferrin - it's in the library at work so I am off to get it!


Weirc - thanks. Not clear if it was gravity or the afterburners that made it supersonic it seems.


lastdingo - I had not thought of recce, but that is the one mission it does make sense in.

9/11/2001 - F-15s launched from Otis ANG[/size] and from Langley AFB went supersonic in response to the airliner attacks. I saw the Langley jets over Alexandria, VA; the boom scared a LOT of people, according to the number of calls about "something just exploded" that were made to the radio stations.

 

[J.A.W.]

Supersonic intercept vectors were flown against Concorde over the Irish sea ( albeit not actual hostile combat sorties).
RAF pilots reported regularly doing da boom on NATO duty exercises over Germany.
Any Soviet era high-speed SR-71 recce interception attempts on record?

 

[CostasTT]

I do seem to recall Iraqi aircraft during ODS going fast in order to present missiles launched by coalition aircraft with difficult tail chase profiles, so maybe some of these instances fit the premise you mentioned, Harrier.

 

[sferrin]

I do seem to recall Iraqi aircraft during ODS going fast in order to present missiles launched by coalition aircraft with difficult tail chase profiles, so maybe some of these instances fit the premise you mentioned, Harrier.

I don't know that an airplane running away as fast as it can, with a big lead already, qualifies as "combat".

 

[marauder2048]

I don't know that an airplane running away as fast as it can, with a big lead already, qualifies as "combat".

Weren't the Iraqi aircraft attempting to lure coalition fighters into SAM/Flak traps?

 

[sferrin]

I don't know that an airplane running away as fast as it can, with a big lead already, qualifies as "combat".

Weren't the Iraqi aircraft attempting to lure coalition fighters into SAM/Flak traps?

Some were just trying to run to Iran ASAP.

 

[datafuser]

On 25th April 1966, two USAF F-4Cs - at Mach 0.82, 30,000 feet - were escorting a U-2 at 70,000 feet.

They saw an aircraft fast flying across at 20 NM ahead, leaving a clear contrail. The ROE dictated anything above 35,000 feet is hostile, so the F-4Cs lit afterburner and dived to accelerate as fast as they could. The fast aircraft flying across was a MiG-21 at Mach 1.6, 46,000 feet.

The 1st F-4C, now supersonic, dived down to 13,000 feet and then pulled up, reaching 38,000 feet at Mach 0.9-1.0 with 50-60 degrees nose-up. At this moment the 1st F-4C tried to lock-on the MiG-21 and fire its AIM-7Ds, but the missiles didn't fire.

The 2nd F-4C managed to fire three AIM-7Ds at Mach 1.3, 34,000 feet but all of them missed.

 

[mkellytx]

Does anyone know if there has ever been an air combat engagement that depended on supersonic speed, to get to the fight, to win the fight, or to escape the fight?


If so, what war, what planes etc?



I am looking to help with a presentation I am doing having been asked 'how much extra have we had to pay for supersonic capability and how much use has it been'?


Good question, and as Google has failed to give me a quick and easy answer I thought I'd ask the experts.

Harrier,


You may want to try searching ACIG.org or look at the Fighter Tactics Academy. Both are excellent resources. Additionally, if you haven't looked already, Project Red Baron is a great account of the aerial engagements during Vietnam, datafuser's post contains scans of it. All are good hard sources.


IIRC, the first all supersonic aerial engagement was a USN F-4 vs. NVA Mig-21, with the F-4 scoring the kill. You may try and find that in Red Baron.


Cheers

 

[Hot Breath]

Supersonic intercept vectors were flown against Concorde over the Irish sea ( albeit not actual hostile combat sorties).
RAF pilots reported regularly doing da boom on NATO duty exercises over Germany.
Any Soviet era high-speed SR-71 recce interception attempts on record?

Yes, many. Yefim Gordon's book on Soviet Air Defences has numerous references to interceptors going supersonic, both against SR-71s and other intruders.

 

[xmotex]

Didn't the Swedes also attempt head-on supersonic intercept runs on the SR-71 with their Viggens in the 1980's?
IIRC they were able to briefly get a lock on the Blackbird several times.

 

[J.A.W.]

Account of NATO interceptors flying supersonic pursuit vectors against Concorde..

http://www.lightning.org.uk/oct04sotm.html

 

[Kiltonge]

Until the intrdocution of the SR-71, the RF-101C missions over North Vietnam were the fastest combat sorties on record.

They ran in at low-level, 500 kts, and then did a pop-up to 15,000 ft for the 900 kts photo run. Usually unescorted because they would outrun F-4s assigned to provide cover.

One unexpected problem with the high speed was that the frame-rate of the camera film feeders, which was directly proportional to airspeed, would shear the drive motor gears if run for too long!

Their replacement, the RF-4C, ran slower and over shorter ranges.

 

[J.A.W.]

Maybe the USN RA-5 Vigilante units would dispute those 'fastest V-N war recce-bird' honours?

 

[Arjen]

Maybe the USN RA-5 Vigilante units would dispute those 'fastest V-N war recce-bird' honours?

I think Kiltonge was referring to combat sorties in general.

Until the intrdocution of the SR-71, the RF-101C missions over North Vietnam were the fastest combat sorties on record.

The RA-5C entered service in 1963, by which time the A-12 had been flying for years was already flying missions. SR-71's entry into service was sometime in 1964, IIRC January 1966. RA-5C first deployment to Vietnam was in 1964, after the A-12 became operational, years before the SR-71.

RA-5C flying faster sorties than RF-101C? Probably. Anyone know more about it?

 

[SOC]

The RA-5C entered service in 1963, by which time the A-12 had been flying for years was already flying missions. SR-71's entry into service was sometime in 1964, IIRC January 1966. RA-5C first deployment to Vietnam was in 1964, after the A-12 became operational, years before the SR-71.

The A-12 first flew in 1962. It wasn't operationally deployed, to Kadena, until 1967; the flights from 1967-1968 over Asian targets were its only operational sorties. The SR-71 replaced it at Kadena in 1968.

 

[Arjen]

[The A-12 first flew in 1962. It wasn't operationally deployed, to Kadena, until 1967; the flights from 1967-1968 over Asian targets were its only operational sorties. The SR-71 replaced it at Kadena in 1968.

Ah. Right :-[ . That'll teach me to do some more fact checking before I post.

 

[Jeb]

On 25th April 1966, two USAF F-4Cs - at Mach 0.82, 30,000 feet - were escorting a U-2 at 70,000 feet.

I know it makes logical sense but that is one heck of a funny escort mission.

 

[Kiltonge]

Maybe the USN RA-5 Vigilante units would dispute those 'fastest V-N war recce-bird' honours?

Good point! I don't know much about the Vigi missions, nor how fast they flew for real. From a quick web search it seems they had to bring in the reheat to hit 600 kts which surprises me, the Voodoo would cruise dry at 500 kts.

I'll check in the Osprey book later today. Thanks for the prompt

Edit: from one link it looks like the Vigis were policy-limited so that they wouldn't out-pace their F-4 escorts. So technically the probably were capable of flying supersonic recce as fast as / faster than the Voodoos but weren't given the opportunity.

The Voodoos did fly a few missions throttled-back with F-4 "escorts" but soon abandoned the idea, which stripped them of ECM cover.

 

[Avimimus]

Supersonic intercept vectors were flown against Concorde over the Irish sea ( albeit not actual hostile combat sorties).
RAF pilots reported regularly doing da boom on NATO duty exercises over Germany.
Any Soviet era high-speed SR-71 recce interception attempts on record?

Yes, many. Yefim Gordon's book on Soviet Air Defences has numerous references to interceptors going supersonic, both against SR-71s and other intruders.

The other facet is the use of supersonic speeds to defeat long-range SAMs and BVR missiles. Although there has been a shortage of actually cases where BVR combat has taken place - a lot of defensive strategies involve covering a large amount of space quickly in order to make the intercept vector for the missile hard to predict (and thus use up its energy in corrections). For instance, the PAK-FA's requirements reportedly emphasized supersonic maneuverability over super-maneuverability because it was felt necessary to defeat modern SAMs.

 

[Kiltonge]

According to the Osprey RA-5C Units in Combat, the Vigis ran their missions over North Vietnam at between 550 and 600 knots, but low-level. Surprisingly 'slow'.

 

[GTX]

Not really "Supersonic air combat" but this article does discuss intercepts of the SR-71: http://theaviationist.com/2013/12/11/sr-71-vs-mig-31/