Space Race Role Reversal

[phantomphan]

After the end of WW2, most of the top German rocket engineers went to the US.

But what if the Germans had won the war, and instead it was (if Stalin had allowed them to live) the Soviet designers - Chelomey, Glushko and Korolyov - who went to America. How would such a space-race had played itself out, and what would the co-influence of Soviet designers and American technology had brought to fruition?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

If the Germans "won the war", the US is presumably under German or Japanese occupation? Not quite understanding the logic here. Premise is also flawed in assuming that the US would want Soviet rocket designers, unless in your scenario they had already built rockets in the USSR far superior to those the US had before fleeing. Operation Paperclip was controversial enough.

Assuming you want to ignore these points, what do you think would happen? I don't see a lack of native US capability.

 

[phantomphan]

Granted, when I say that the Germans 'won the war' I should rather have said that WWII grinded to a peace with Germany consolidating it's grip over its conquests in Europe and the Soviet Union. In the process they manage to come to an uneasy understanding with the Americans, who would rather use their energy and resources to clear the Pacific of the Empire of the Rising Sun.
The Soviet designers (or some of them), who had been evacuated to behind the Urals, manage to escape the NKVD and the Wehrmacht/SS/Gestapo and, after a thrilling adventure, they end up offering their services to the Americans. There is no Paperclip controversy since until their loss the USSR had been one of the Allies (just as any Brits or Frenchman making their way across the Atlantic wouldn't have raised an eyebrow).
I also agree that there was no lack of American talent; Phil Bono and Max Faget to name two, (yet, in our time-line the Americans still decided to allowed their Germans to take the lead.) Would the ex-Soviet designers have had any positive impact on an incipient American ballistic missile or launch vehicle? Could any of them have taken on a Von Braun type roll?

 

[archipeppe]

Germany won the war?
Independentely by the fate of both U.S. and U.K., German would look for Korolev, Glushko, Chelomei and co. exactly in the same way U.S. look for von Braun and co.

Of course the Russians would help but not being fundamental, exactly like the Gottrupp's group did in USSR after the war. This because both Germany and USSR had their own native space designer groups, unlike the American who had only the scarce and underrated Goddard's group.

Maybe the "other" winner, the Japanese would look even more for Russian space designers since native Japanese rocketry was not advanced as Germans' one. Or, it depends by the scenario, even Italian could actively look for Russians space designers, Mussolini (if still alive and in power at the end of the war) would love to boost Italian Empire higher straight into Space....

 

[Michel Van]

Germany won the War ?
Wich one ?
Nazi Germany was unable to win WW2 in any scenario, thanks to screaming little Austrian !

Imperial Germany could win WW2 (after they survive WW1) but in order to win they have to:
- Real Air-force with heavy bombers and long range escorts Fighters.
- Use nerve gas on enemy forces in large quantity.
- And goes for city of Baku were USSR produce there Oil.
- With Help of China who attracting Siberia to disrupt Trans Siberia Rail road and binding Soviet forces in East.

but even in This scenario, phantonphan request does't not work!
The German Rocket engineers develop there Rocket further until the German Interkontinental Rakete
While USA has the team around Robert Goddard who start to build bigger rockets
For Korolev he could fall in Chinese hand, but he is not great use this is the Siberia Gulag Prisoner.
He never got german rocket hardware in his hand to learn, like Glushko or Chelomei...

 

[archipeppe]

Nazi Germany was unable to win WW2 in any scenario, thanks to screaming little Austrian !

Not exactly, if Germany won the Battle of England would force the U.K. to a separate armistice (well before launching the operation "See Lowe"), in this scenario the war would end definitely on Western front.

After that Germany would decide to invade or not USSR.
Japan would enter in a lonely war with USA unrelated to European front.
Italy would remain more or less intact not suffering the defeat first in Africa and after in homeland.
In this scenario Germany and Japan would join forces to beat the USSR only in a second moment.

 

[uk 75]

Interesting to note the actual German scientists who worked with the Soviet Union

Helmut Gröttrup - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Forgotten Rocketeers: German Scientists in the Soviet Union, 1945–1959 - War on the Rocks

On Aug. 21, 1957, in the deserts of central Kazakhstan, flames licked the concrete of the Baikonur Cosmodrome. After three disastrous failed tests, rocket

warontherocks.com

 

[Michel Van]

After that Germany would decide to invade or not USSR.

And that is the Problem
The Little Annoying Austrian wanted invade West USSR and depopulate it at any cost.
He wanted "Lebensraum" in east...

It suicidal to attack with 3 million soldiers a enemy, that bring up to 12 million soldiers for defence.
means one german soldier has to kill 4 soviet in oder to survive,
And Stalin not care on losses, he wanted Hitler in chains at his feet...

 

[uk 75]

Take the German factor out of the interesting question of what a US space programme headed by Korolev and his team (and his great rival too?) and lets just imagine that somehow they do get to the US in the 1940s instead of Von Braun.
How would the Russian team's approach look like with US manufacturing and economic resources?

Interesting to note the actual German scientists who worked with the Soviet Union

Helmut Gröttrup - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Forgotten Rocketeers: German Scientists in the Soviet Union, 1945–1959 - War on the Rocks

On Aug. 21, 1957, in the deserts of central Kazakhstan, flames licked the concrete of the Baikonur Cosmodrome. After three disastrous failed tests, rocket

warontherocks.com

 

[phantomphan]

This is my question precisely; not the mechanics of Nazi Germany managed to end up 'winning' the war, but how having ex-Soviet designers on the payroll would have influenced the American payroll?
If I recall, the Russians struggled with the initial development of the SCUD, regardless of the availability of the Grotrupp group, and mostly sorted out the bugs on their own. Indeed, with in a decade or so, they had developed the R-7 ICBM and launched Sputnik. And Goddard passed away in 1945, meaning that he would have had little influence.

 

[publiusr]

If Glushko and Korolev had defected to the USA…there never would have been an R-7 or a space race.

Let me tell you exactly what would have happened.

USSR
Chelomei would have been under Yangel, and SS-9 would have been as large as things ever got. The US would have put up the first sat…and it would have been matched…later. Hypergolic ICBMs…that’s all.

No Gagarin.


USA
All the V-2s would have been shot off into the desert…and that’s it for liquid rockets.
Solids rule the roost.

No Saturns—No Shuttle.

Glushko Korolev and Von Braun have little to do but drink as Le May and Rickover get blank checks.

 

[riggerrob]

Why do Russian engineers even need to defect to the USA?
Why can't they just just stay home and build rockets for Stalin?

 

[publiusr]

Well, that IS what happened. Russia was friendlier to rocketry at that time-a symbol of revolution, etc. Heavy nukes made for bigger LVs. The microchip should have been invented on a Moonbase so as to not interfere with LV growth.

 

[uk 75]

I still think it would be interesting to see what would have happened if it had been Korolev instead of Von Braun using the resources of the United States perhaps with Von Braun and his Peenemunde team getting caught by the Russians.
What would Korolev have done with the resources of NASA and US industry?
How would Von Braun have worked with the limitations of Soviet industry?
Who would have got to launch the first sat. and man in space?
Lets assume Von Braun like Korolev has the support of the Kremlin. Instead of the SS7 launcher would he have still developed something different?
Then the big one N1 vs Saturn to go to the Moon?
Would Korolev have come up with a different design?
Could Von Braun have got the Soviets to build something like Saturn?
Please focus on the technology not the politics.

 

[publiusr]

No ugly fight over fuel- Von Braun might have been fine with hypergols. He might have smoothed things over if Korolev remained. American rocketry would be all solids. Parsons was a strange cat....he might have had a good run...despite scaring folks as a diabolist. No Saturn? Maybe Orion?