Soviet Union vs. West in 1948 ?

[topspeed3]

Scenario Russia and West having divided Germany went into a war.
How would have P.1101 and LA-15 faired against each others ?

 

[Antonio]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

How would have P.1101 and LA-15 faired against each others ?

Are you talking about WWIII starting in 1948?
How Me P.1011 and La-15 could be involved?

 

[Jemiba]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

How Me P.1011 and La-15 could be involved?

War would have been prolonged until 1948, GB would have sent the Derwent and, well, I think, I heard,
that Soviet knowledge about swept wings was largely based on German research ? ???
Ok, let's asume a commando raid on a German research site by paratroopers, capturing some German
scientists and hundreds of documents that way and returning in a dozen of Bratukhin helicopters.
Title " In the clutches of the Russian bear " ? ;D

I gave the title, who writes the first chapter ?
We can also include a Russian V2 fired on Berlin, killing Hitler, ... maybe ..

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

How would have P.1101 and LA-15 faired against each others ?

Are you talking about WWIII starting in 1948?
How Me P.1011 and La-15 could be involved?

Didn't russians snatch 3000 engineers to the east ( 114 with Paperclip to the west ) ?

Just a war..over who is the new "king" in Germany and Europe and which system would prevail ( communism or kapitalism ).

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

How Me P.1011 and La-15 could be involved?

War would have been prolonged until 1948, GB would have sent the Derwent and, well, I think, I heard,
that Soviet knowledge about swept wings was largely based on German research ? ???
Ok, let's asume a commando raid on a German research site by paratroopers, capturing some German
scientists and hundreds of documents that way and returning in a dozen of Bratukhin helicopters.
Title " In the clutches of the Russian bear " ? ;D

I gave the title, who writes the first chapter ?
We can also include a Russian V2 fired on Berlin, killing Hitler, ... maybe ..

No war went as it went but west would have been showing first weakness and given too much territory to Soviets the whole northern Germany...south where they found P.1101 would be west dominated.

The LA-15 engine would have been accomplished with few die hard commies from west fleeing with Derwent V blueprints. Using Gloster Meteor two seaters.

Peenemünde would be in Soviet hands completely.

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

England would remain neutral ( to help polish cause ).
Thus it would work like Sweden in WW II..selling goodies to everyone who has some money to spare. :

 

[starviking]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

England would remain neutral ( to help polish cause ).
Thus it would work like Sweden in WW II..selling goodies to everyone who has some money to spare. :

England could not - as it had ceased to exist as a sovereign state in 1707. The United Kingdom, however, could be involved in this What If...

 

[Antonio]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain.html

In fact that tittle should be more accurate:

"Soviet Union war vs West : 1948"

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

England would remain neutral ( to help polish cause ).
Thus it would work like Sweden in WW II..selling goodies to everyone who has some money to spare. :

England could not - as it had ceased to exist as a sovereign state in 1707. The United Kingdom, however, could be involved in this What If...

Ok I think I know it now...United Kingdom. What did they have in terms of jet aircraft in 1948 ?

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain.html

In fact that tittle should be more accurate:

"Soviet Union war vs West : 1948"

I think this is correct yes.

Mig - 15 wasn't ready yet by 1948 was it ?

 

[topspeed3]

I have a haunch new German planes would not have cut it...west would have needed to bring FJ-Furys and F-86 Sabres into the scene ?

 

[GTX]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

United Kingdom. What did they have in terms of jet aircraft in 1948 ?

You are kidding aren't you...

 

[topspeed3]

Re: Russia vs. West in 1948 ?

United Kingdom. What did they have in terms of jet aircraft in 1948 ?

You are kidding aren't you...

Well I am not dead serious either...am I ?

At least Meteor right ?

 

[bobbymike]

No to be too off topic but I would like to have seen the daily 1000 B-29 raids on Moscow orchestrated by my favorite general Curtis LeMay

 

[Jemiba]

... the daily 1000 B-29 raids on Moscow orchestrated by my favorite general Curtis LeMay

It would have been B-36, of course ! The B-29 would have been relegated to tatcical support
only. And in their desperate attempts to counter those attacks, the Soviets built delta,
later rhomboid winged fighters (you'll find them in our "fake" section), based on the research by
Alexander Lippisch. He was already in the US, of course, but his documents and the latest US
developments in which he had participated, were stolen by a female Soviet spy after a fling with
him (This alone is more than enough stuff for at least two episodes !).
Well, and now I think, it's high time to bring in the Roswell incident and then to boost the whole
kind of technology used in that conflict !
Any thoughts about the set of actors ? Tom Cruise may be too old for Topgun 2, but maybe as
Curtis Le May he probably would be quite a good cast, I think ? :

 

[topspeed3]

I don't want to bring about the question how the nation under the communist rule would have reacted to the situation. After all they had been brainwashed already 3 years after the wars end...would they have turned against west or fought with USSR and stayed under Stalins rule ? Could the forced labour 3000 German technicians in USSR have come up with new wunderwaffe based on the designs that were on drawing board in WW II...or the Paperclip folks in USA ? Would Wernher von Braun have made a base in the moon already in 1950 to attack USSR from the dark side of the moon...or could the USSR kosmonauts reached moon in 1949 to get more nickel for the ammos ?
Tom Cruise as Curtis LeMay would do...who would cast the Soviet AF commander ( who was he ? ) ?

 

[pathology_doc]

Would Wernher von Braun have made a base in the moon already in 1950 to attack USSR from the dark side of the moon...or could the USSR kosmonauts reached moon in 1949 to get more nickel for the ammos ?

Are we crafting a realistic scenario for going to war over, e.g. the Berlin Airlift, or are we writing a sequel to Iron Sky? :

 

[RanulfC]

Well, and now I think, it's high time to bring in the Roswell incident and then to boost the whole
kind of technology used in that conflict !

Well that's obvious actually... The Rosewell incident is a failed Soviet reconnaissance misson to spy on the only active Atomic Bomber squadron in the United States. Launched prior to opening of hostilities in Europe the mission was based from a converted freighter sitting off shore in the Gulf of California. It was supposed to recon Rosewell and then return for recovery. The mission would then launch again with the reconnaissance gear replaced with several chemical bombs to drop on the base so that the squadron would be out of action during the 'war'. Unfortunatly the use of the high-performance but very tricky to fly captured German Flugelrad MkIII turned out to be a bad idea when it was caught in bad weather near the target and crashed. In an effort to save weight the Soviets had used a crew of midgets and their bodies combined with the never before seen Flugelrad design initially caused a minor panic within the US military and government. Its ulitimate effect on the war is still in question...
http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/BMW%20Flugelrad.htm

(Been WAITING to use this one )

Randy

 

[topspeed3]

Would Wernher von Braun have made a base in the moon already in 1950 to attack USSR from the dark side of the moon...or could the USSR kosmonauts reached moon in 1949 to get more nickel for the ammos ?

Are we crafting a realistic scenario for going to war over, e.g. the Berlin Airlift, or are we writing a sequel to Iron Sky? :

When excatly was the Berlin airlift operation ?
I think Willy Messerschmitt would have been able to develope state of the art new small mach 2+ mover by 1951..final stages of the conflict.

 

[GTX]

When excatly was the Berlin airlift operation ?

Once again: You are kidding aren't you...

Please try doing a little research before posting...Google isn't that hard to use.

 

[Antonio]

Topspeed,

this topic is a candidate to be closed. You seem to be confused about the purpose of the topic. If you want to play with alternative/whatif history you should learn first about the facts of real History. Otherwise your speculation is no sense.

Remember the subject of the forum: real unbuilt project research. Some degree of out of topic posts are allowed but this is not a whatif forum.

Please think about it before starting that are far from the forum's subject.

 

[topspeed3]

When excatly was the Berlin airlift operation ?

Once again: You are kidding aren't you...

Please try doing a little research before posting...Google isn't that hard to use.

Right from June 1948 untill May 1949...so my timing was right..it was heating up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade

 

[Zeppelin]

Would the Mig's engine in this scenario been ready, or have to be of a different development without the Soviet acquisition of those gifted 55 [/size]Rolls-Royce Nene engines?

 

[hs1216]

I think Willy Messerschmitt would have been able to develope state of the art new small mach 2+ mover by 1951..final stages of the conflict.

He would need the area rule and sufficient power. Also, by the war years Messerschmitt was more a manager then engineer. He contributed little or nothing technical to late war designs.

We don't need to turn this into German Uber-Engineer Luft46.

 

[bobbymike]

How many nukes did the US have in 1948? Where could B-29's have launched from to hit Moscow (combat radius)

 

[RanulfC]

How many nukes did the US have in 1948? Where could B-29's have launched from to hit Moscow (combat radius)

I'm not sure how many we had by 1948, I don't think it was more than a couple dozen at most. Can't find a good historical listing as of yet.

Some intersting info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverplate

(Wikipedia so take it for what it's worth)

Indicates that the USAAF only had 32 "operational" Atomic Capable B-29s at the start of 1948. Note also that the "Silverplate" varient of the B-29 was without armor and defensive weapons and even then only capable of reaching 30,000ft for an "operational" mission.
"Saddletree" which was the follow on to "Silverplate" was directed to start modifications of more B-29s as well as B-50s and B-36s to increase Atomic capable wings available but it would seem that by mid-1948 the entire Atomic capability of the US consisted of the "Silverplate" WWII modified B-29s of the 509th Composite group.

There is mention that the "Saddletree" mods included the ability to operate from "Arctic" bases but at the tme being discussed it would seem that would not have been an "in-place" ability yet so the bombers would have to have been "staged" through fairly temperate "friendly" air-bases. The B-29 has a listed "combat radius" of around 1,600 miles, so you're looking at basing in England, possibly France (though I doubt it), Turkey and some other middle East bases.

All of which would have required a major deployment move and all the security and danger that entailed at the time. Turkey and the Middle East would have been 'better' from an operational stand-point of least distance to target but England would have probably been a more "secure" base location.

I was only "partially" kidding about the "Rosewell" incident being a failed Soviet "pre-emptive" strike on US Atomic capability. Until around the summer of 1949 Rosewell and the 509th were the TOTAL US Atomic Bomber capability and it would only have made military sense to try and end that "threat" as soon as possible.

Randy

 

[RanulfC]

Interestingly enough I ran across the following article in a print magazine yesterday at our base hospital.

"The Early War Plans" Air Force Magazine, December, 2012
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2012/December%202012/1212war.aspx

It includes information on the early US war-plans from about 1946 to about 1955. 1948 specifically was a "transitional" year both for the overall US "War-Plan" and the actual operational thinking behind those plans. In any case the "Atomic" option was considered THE primary US offensive operation in any war with the Soviet Union while we had a monopoly on the bomb.

Randy

 

[edwest4]

A classified American assessment published around this time period expressed concern over how many captured Me-262s and Arado 234s the Russians had. The British were stupid to sell engines to the Russians while "fearing" them at the same time. The engines were immediately disassembled and went into production as they fit the MiG 15. The data on the P. 1101 is in dispute regarding final performance. The Ta-183, like many designs of the time, was not set in stone. One need only look on page 232 of "Kurt Tank: Focke-Wulf's Designer and Test Pilot" by Wolfgang Wagner, to see the "Fw Typ II, improved preliminary design for the Ta 183," and compare it to the MiG 15. And the Russians test flew the captured, supersonic DFS-346 which was carried under the wing of an interned American B-29.

The B-36 was a ten engine nightmare and a giant radar target.

 

[Madoc]

Ed,

The B-36 was a ten engine nightmare and a giant radar target.

And at its operational altitude the B-36 was only marginally slower than those first generation jets. It also could turn _inside_ those jets at that altitude as well. Couple that with the "Big Stick's" being armed sixteen 20mm cannons across eight turrets and whatever the Red Air Force managed to stagger up to meet the 36s would've been sorely done by.

 

[Motocar]

Cutaway Lavochkin La-15, free interpretation