Soviet make a unlicensed copy of a western fighter

[Monk78]

Which western fighter from 60s to 70s would have been the easiest for the Soviets to copy ( not just airframe but also engine avionics and weapon systems)
It must be an aircraft that is helpful to their military doctrine and not purely an attack aircraft of fighter lineage

 

[tomo pauk]

Which western fighter from 60s to 70s would have been the easiest for the Soviets to copy and also would be the most useful for them ?

Easiest - F-5. Mirages are also in the running.
Most useful to them: F-15, and, before that, F-4.

 

[GTX]

It's not just the airframe though. To get most benefit one needs all the subsystems...and that is where things will get tricky.

 

[Monk78]

Easiest - F-5. Mirages are also in the running.
Most useful to them: F-15, and, before that, F-4.

Right but f-15 or F-4 are almost impossible with soviet tech and resources

 

[Monk78]

It's not just the airframe though. To get most benefit one needs all the subsystems...and that is where things will get tricky.

Agree so that’s why let me add which aircraft and it’s compatible weapon systems would be the most suitable

 

[tomo pauk]

Right but f-15 or F-4 are almost impossible with soviet tech and resources

You need to set the rules in the 1st post, not adding them as we go. Just saying.

 

[Monk78]

You need to set the rules in the 1st post, not adding them as we go. Just saying.

Ok fair point
Just edited my post

 

[Monk78]

Easiest - F-5. Mirages are also in the running.
Most useful to them: F-15, and, before that, F-4.

Mirage III or V ?

 

[tomo pauk]

Mirage III or V ?

I favor the III.
It is very easy to make the V out of it if/when desired.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Easy answer - none of them.

F-86 Sabre - work started on copying it but it was abandoned. Some technology was borrowed and Sukhoi's S-1/T-1 lineage has a little bit of influence.

Mirage III has no obvious advantage over the MiG-21. Ditto Lightning.

F-4 Phantom II was acquired but while some technologies were borrowed, there was no desire to copy the entire aircraft.

F-5 was acquired but while some technologies were borrowed, there was no desire to copy the entire aircraft.

Sukhoi and Mikoyan did study the F-15 layout and both concluded the integral layout was better. So there would be no desire to copy the F-15 either.

 

[tomo pauk]

Mirage III has no obvious advantage over the MiG-21. Ditto Lightning.

No obvious advantage over the MiG-21 as per Soviet thinking, or what so ever?

 

[Monk78]

I favor the III.
It is very easy to make the V out of it if/when desired.

My thought is Soviets already have an established interceptor in mig21 a much better F4 minus in the form of mig23 is coming up
Why not make a Nesher type cheaper version rather than waste time with su25 , it can be a success as a export aircraft, probably better all round aircraft than the mig23ms or mig21bis
Su25 roles can be fulfilled by helicopters

 

[Monk78]

Can Soviets copy the mirage III /V engine or better to use one of their own ?

 

[tomo pauk]

My thought is Soviets already have an established interceptor in mig21 a much better F4 minus in the form of mig23 is coming up

Mirages were with a far better range/radius, and FWIW, were regarded very, very high by one of the the most successful Cold War airforces - Israeli one.
F4 > 'F4 minus'.

Why not make a Nesher type cheaper version rather than waste time with su25 , it can be a success as a export aircraft, probably better all round aircraft than the mig23ms or mig21bis

No objections by me there.

Su25 roles can be fulfilled by helicopters

I'd disagree there. Su-25 was carrying far greater bomb+rocket load, and was with a potent cannon from day one. It was also outfitted with laser range finder/marker from get go.

Can Soviets copy the mirage III /V engine or better to use one of their own ?

Soviet engines were probably no worse than the Atars.

 

[Monk78]

Mirages were with a far better range/radius, and FWIW, were regarded very, very high by one of the the most successful Cold War airforces - Israeli one.
F4 > 'F4 minus'.

Can soviet GCI support such a long range interceptor ? Are we totally changing Soviet air combat doctrine too ?

F4 Soviets cannot match but a F4 minus is still better than most other aircraft of its era

Also if they mass produce mirage III what should they do with the mig23 program and thousands of mig21 ?

 

[TsrJoe]

Why ?

 

[tomo pauk]

Can soviet GCI support such a long range interceptor ? Are we totally changing Soviet air combat doctrine too ?

You wanted a copy of Western fighter. F-4 was the best game in town before F-14 and F-15 arrived.
How Soviets will be using it is on them.

F4 Soviets cannot match but a F4 minus is still better than most other aircraft of its era

Same as above - F4 beats a 'F4 minus', so there is no reason to go for the worse option.

Also if they mass produce mirage III what should they do with the mig23 program and thousands of mig21 ?

We can rejoice - MiG-23 is canned, and MiG-21 production is ending by the time Mirage III is in production.

 

[Monk78]

You wanted a copy of Western fighter. F-4 was the best game in town before F-14 and F-15 arrived.
How Soviets will be using it is on them.



Same as above - F4 beats a 'F4 minus', so there is no reason to go for the worse option.


We can rejoice - MiG-23 is canned, and MiG-21 production is ending by the time Mirage III is in production.

So essentially to copy any western fighter worth the effort Soviets would have to change the way they were planning to fight air war and pilot training too

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Why not make a Nesher type cheaper version rather than waste time with su25

I would take an Su-25 over a Nesher / Mirage V every day.

We can rejoice - MiG-23 is canned, and MiG-21 production is ending by the time Mirage III is in production.

Mirage III and MiG-21 are near contemporary. MiG-21 production didn't end until 1985 AFAIK.

You can argue which is better, but unless the Soviets got one of the first Mirage III prototypes somehow, it will always be too late to put into production.

Whole topic is a bit pointless IMHO.

 

[tomo pauk]

So essentially to copy any western fighter worth the effort Soviets would have to change the way they were planning to fight air war and pilot training too

Americans were changing their training from 1960s into the 1970s, so let's not give the Soviets the free pass here.
Having a better tool is a feature, not a bug.

 

[Monk78]

Americans were changing their training from 1960s into the 1970s, so let's not give the Soviets the free pass here.
Having a better tool is a feature, not a bug.

But if anything the soviet system will be more inflexible and inefficient, we cannot expect them to completely overhaul it within 5 yrs

 

[Monk78]

I would take an Su-25 over a Nesher / Mirage V every day.


Mirage III and MiG-21 are near contemporary. MiG-21 production didn't end until 1985 AFAIK.

You can argue which is better, but unless the Soviets got one of the first Mirage III prototypes somehow, it will always be too late to put into production.

Whole topic is a bit pointless IMHO.

As a strike / CAS platform undoubtably the frogfoot is superior however here we are trying to create a jack of all trades fighter for export market and maybe non NATO facing areas of USSR
Soviets already had a plethora of much more survivable strike platforms in that era , frogfoot would have a very short lifespan ( shorter than even the average Soviet aircraft) when faced with NATO defenses. Where frogfoot really was effective was against less sophisticated opposition, but in that case it’s better to go for a low tech fighter which is a more versatile platform

Mig21bis production lasted until 1982 yes but if this fictional fighter has been built then bis may not have been built for export

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

we are trying to create a jack of all trades fighter for export market and maybe non NATO facing areas of USSR

This kind of discussion is better suited to the What-if Modelers forum then, as it comes down to "I want an F-4/Mirage in Red Stars".

 

[Scott Kenny]

Americans were changing their training from 1960s into the 1970s, so let's not give the Soviets the free pass here.
Having a better tool is a feature, not a bug.

Because the US was only training for BVR intercepting (and mostly non-maneuverable bombers at that!) in the early 1960s, not having to mix it up with fighters or fighter-bombers WVR.

Vietnam demonstrated that BVR-only training was a terrible idea.

 

[tomo pauk]

Because the US was only training for BVR intercepting (and mostly non-maneuverable bombers at that!) in the early 1960s, not having to mix it up with fighters or fighter-bombers WVR.

Vietnam demonstrated that BVR-only training was a terrible idea.

Soviets were also switching into long-range shots, provided aircraft were capable of doing that in the 1st place (requiring big radar, long range, and as big missiles as possible). This is why the Su-9/-11/-15, Tu-26 and MiG-25 emerged, the gunless fighters that relied on these missiles to hit the - preferably - bombers of the likely enemy.
USSR even wanted to remove the cannons from the MiG-21s in a short period of time.

USA + NATO were also introducing the AIM-9 as a short-range missile, that were usable even from the fighters that have had meager radar sets, like the F-86 or F-5A. Soviets were also trying to do the same with the MiG-19 and -21, with varying degree of success.

Yes, not training and preparing for all-range combat (as far as technology is allowing) was a mistake.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Why would the Soviets want to copy Western fighters? They clearly had a doctorine and design path of their own to persue. Avionics being about the only thing they would really like to copy perhaps to boost their own capabilities.

 

[TsrJoe]

Seems a pointless thread

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Seems a pointless thread

Agreed. Locked.