South African small to medium calibre weapon prototypes, concepts, projects etc.

[Graugrun]

I decided that this topic needs it's own thread - there is more than enough out there to justify it.

Starting with one that had so much potential and promise - the Neostead tactical shotgun, combining a full length barrel of 570mm within a very short 690mm length bull-pup design, it was far shorter than any other tactical full barrel length shotgun - however it was the biggest advance in shotgun development since the advent of the pump-action, in that it carried dual magazines doubling the normal tactical shotgun ammunition capacity to 13 rounds. The two magazines could also house different types on ammunition (i.e. Slugs for door penetration and buckshot for room clearing purposes). The shooter could quickly select each ammunition type with a quick flick of a selector switch, or leave it in the neutral position for alternative ammunition feeding. Slots on top of the magazines also allowed for visual monitoring of ammunition levels. It was apparently inherently safer than a traditional tactical shotgun and much more lightweight due to both it's design and the extensive use of polymers.

What happened..? It seems that no orders from the South African government due to massive defense cutbacks (no home order usually scares off any potential foreign clients) - and some sort of fallout between the developers/partners ensured that this innovative product unfortunately became stillborn.

Very high praise for it was received from those who did test it, to no avail, the above factors (and perhaps others that I am unaware of) killed it off.

I noticed 2 years ago or so that an American company is now making something very similar, did they just copy it, or did they buy the patent/manufacturing rights? I cannot remember the exact date that I first saw this Neostead shotgun at a DEXSA defense show, however I think it was in 1996...

 

[Graugrun]

This is a write-up by Charles Q Cutshaw (RIP), for a 1998 Janes IDR quarterly report, this time featuring tactical shotguns from around the world. Unfortunately it was spread over a few pages (plus the cover), hence the multiple scans.

 

[kaiserbill]

I recall many years back first seeing a writeup on the Neostead in Soldier of Fortune magazine of all places, if I recall correctly.

Did it ever go into production in the end?
There are a few videos out there on youtube calling it the Neostead 2000...

 

[TomS]

It did go to production, though it remains quite rare.

Apparently the mechanism was licenced to Turkish maker UTAS Makine, which markets its version in the US and internationally as the UTS-15.

 

[Graugrun]

Kaiserbill - no it did not go into production as far as I know - I will need to check out the Neostead 2000, maybe they are trying to revive it. IIRC they eventually teamed up with Truvelo (who mostly produce sniper rifles), however I think there was a fall out between them and this played a large part in the Neostead not going into production - hopefully someone far more informed than me can fill us in on this...

Here's a brochure produced by Truvelo when Neostead was part of their offering.

Edit - Many thanks TomS for the update! So there was something done - wonder why it has not taken off yet, poor marketing by UTAS Makine perhaps..?

 

[kaiserbill]

A question I wanted to ask was about ammunition.

Was the 3,5inch Super Bazooka ammo ever produced in South Africa?
As far as I'm aware, it was used into the 1980's.

Also, was RPG-7 ammo locally produced?
Helmoed Romer Heitman seems to suggest that it was logical that it was, considering that it became an issued inventory weapon due to the large quantities captured. For it to be issued, certifiable ammunition (storage conditions/shelf life/manufacturing guarantees/etc) would need to be issued surely?

 

[Graugrun]

I have never heard of 3.5 inch Super Bazooka ammo being produced in SA - not unfounded though, we did produce tons and tons of ammo for the Allies in WW2, so together with the explosives factories for the mining industries, the capacity was certainly there.

I seriously doubt we produced RPG-7 ammo, we captured so many tons and tons of them in Angola, that I very much doubt we would have needed to... We did informally issue the RPG-7 to some units mostly because we had so much of it, and it is 'cheap and cheerful' to use. I know we (PMP) did produce our own upgraded version of Russian 23 X 152mm anti aircraft ammunition (better ballistics, increased lethality and safer fuses, also higher quality overall), thanks to us capturing so many of them and then using them as well.

Here is something you may not have yet seen, displayed at AAD 2012 (the old DEXSA), it's a prototype 20mm Personal Area Weapon (PAW) - firing 20mm X 42 ammo. Seems like we are following the US in their way of thinking.

 

[compton_effect]

The PAW was even used as a prop in District 9.

 

[Graugrun]

The PAW was even used as a prop in District 9.

Are you sure you are not thinking of this - the Vektor CR-21? (courtesy JDW '97)

 

[TomS]

Pretty much every exotic South African small arm of the past few years showed up in District 9.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/District_9

 

[Graugrun]

Pretty much every exotic South African small arm of the past few years showed up in District 9.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/District_9

Thanks for the link TomS - I found it very interesting, I had noticed a couple of the weapons in the movie but missed a lot too, including of course the PAW 20. You learn something new everyday!

Below is the brochure for the CR-21

 

[Graugrun]

Just noticed this - PMP (South Africa) and Polycase (USA) working together on polymer cartridge cases...

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35495mp-and-polycase-working-together-on-ammunition-manufacture&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks Graugrun.

That's more detail on the CR21 than I had previously seen.

The polymer cases is interesting.
I suppose we are seeing a revolution in material science across a wide spectrum, so why not cases.

 

[compton_effect]

Pretty much every exotic South African small arm of the past few years showed up in District 9.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/District_9

Wow. That's a cool site. Thanks

 

[Graugrun]

Brochure of the concept model for the 40mm AGL that is now in use.

 

[compton_effect]

Still the best Afrikaans name for a weapon yet - SnotNeus (Snotnose)

 

[Graugrun]

Here is one that I don't remember, the TS V (5) - not sure that it would have been my favourite...Still an interesting prototype. Article from 'Armed Forces' journal March 1991

 

[compton_effect]

I remember this - from a article in the old Police Magazine (What was it called again?).
Looks like a R1 rechambered to a smaller caliber.

 

[curious george]

Another unknown number, this is up for auction on Auction 48 at Classic Arms- never heard or seen anything about this before...

 

[curious george]

* as mentioned in the othe thread.

 

[curious george]

Here is one that I don't remember, the TS V (5) - not sure that it would have been my favourite...Still an interesting prototype. Article from 'Armed Forces' journal March 1991

The layout reminds me of the Rhodesian Northwood R-76 carbine for some reason.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/10/11c7bx2-1.jpg

 

[curious george]

TSV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GW2HuOoUks

 

[kaiserbill]

Here is one that I don't remember, the TS V (5) - not sure that it would have been my favourite...Still an interesting prototype. Article from 'Armed Forces' journal March 1991

Interesting.

The magazine looks like one of those extended 20 round pistol mags you could buy, going on the magazine floor plate and the angle at which it is housed.

If it was aimed at the police, that would make sense to share an interchangeable magazine between the service pistol and a service carbine, which was also the exact thought behind Rugers PC-9 Police Carbine and Marlin Camp Carbine.

EDIT: Reading Curious Georges post about the Rhodesian carbine, it states there that version had the 13 round and 20 round extended mag from the Hi Power 9mm pistol.
Certainly the Rhodesian one predates the Ruger and Marlin in using a pistol mag.
I wonder then which carbine first used a standard pistol mag?

 

[Rickshaw]

Why the South African fascination with SMGs or are they the only "secret" projects which have come into the light to be seen?

 

[curious george]

Why the South African fascination with SMGs or are they the only "secret" projects which have come into the light to be seen?

Some of these have been discovered by chance/ been re-discovered purely by chance and seem to cover a period of 15 - 20yrs. I think the "smg" thing could be coincidental, but makes sense in the context of international weapon sanctions and cheap/simplistic manufacturing processes.

 

[Graugrun]

Why the South African fascination with SMGs or are they the only "secret" projects which have come into the light to be seen?

Some of these have been discovered by chance/ been re-discovered purely by chance and seem to cover a period of 15 - 20yrs. I think the "smg" thing could be coincidental, but makes sense in the context of international weapon sanctions and cheap/simplistic manufacturing processes.

Curious George is properly right with his assertion, however most of the weapons depicted on this thread are of weapons other than SMG's.

I know we developed a couple of pistols, however this is one I was not familiar with, the RAP 401. Although the article states that the SA police had adopted it as their 'concealed weapon' of choice, I think that may be a bit of 'marketing' on their part. I doubt this weapon got made in any sort of numbers at all, thus I would place it firmly in prototype status. Perhaps others with more knowledge on this weapon can confirm or correct my understanding though. The article is from African Armed Forces - Sept 1998

BTW Curious George, thanks very much for all the interesting info you have posted above!

 

[kaiserbill]

I've never heard of most of these, and I pride myself in trying to have some knowledge of small arms...

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Here is one that I don't remember, the TS V (5) - not sure that it would have been my favourite...Still an interesting prototype. Article from 'Armed Forces' journal March 1991

This was originally a Rhodesian weapon. The R.76 designed by Roger Mansfield-Scadden with first deliveries from June 1977.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Another unknown number, this is up for auction on Auction 48 at Classic Arms- never heard or seen anything about this before...

A few Vz25 (Czech) clones were produced in Rhodesia. The GM15 and the Kommando (aka LDP). Both were later produced in South Africa the GM15 as the SANNA77 (by Dan Piennar Enterprises Ltd.) and the Kommando as the Paramax (by Maxim Parabellum in OFS). The frame of the production LDPs was a very nice looking GRP moulding. Years before the Glock 17.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Some of these have been discovered by chance/ been re-discovered purely by chance and seem to cover a period of 15 - 20yrs. I think the "smg" thing could be coincidental, but makes sense in the context of international weapon sanctions and cheap/simplistic manufacturing processes.

Not quite. Most of these weapons were originally developed and produced in Rhodesia in the 1970s. The demand there was for civil defence and in particular anti road ambush defence. Where a 9mm SMG able to be fired by one hand (with the other on the wheel) was an ideal weapon. Just shooting back at the CTs was enough to spoil most ambushes so range, accuracy, lethality were secondary. Also 9mm SMGs were cheap, light, easy to make and also ideal for defence of homes from CT home invaders.

 

[curious george]

Thank you for that info.

 

[Graugrun]

Another pistol, the ADP - Prototype brochure listed first, the improved version (MkII) below. As I understand they made a good couple of the prototype version and testers had mixed results on the range, some good some bad (mostly regards jamming). They sold some but thanks to all the feedback they developed the much improved Mk II version, however thanks to the bad rap that the first one had got (as well as there being so much other choice in the commercial pistol market), the Mk II did not sell very well AFAIK.

 

[Graugrun]

The Bulldog was a shortened version of the Protecta, and pretty much a prototype as far as I know - the full sized Protecta on the other hand (added below for reference purposes), went on to be a best seller and is currently in use with some of the world's best known Special Forces units amongst others (IIRC aka Armsel Striker). Production of this weapon seemed to have changed hands a few times, in this case it was with Reutech Defence Industries.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Striker.

 

[sa_bushwar]

The 7.62mm R1 short barrel, folding stock rifle in use by the anti pouching units in the Kruger National Park.

 

[compton_effect]

As a old army sergeant once told me. A R5 will make sure the other guy stays behind a tree. The R1 will go fetch him for you.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Agreed, excellent assault rifle. You only have to hit the ground in front of the enemy, and the debris kicked up, will sort him out.

As a old army sergeant once told me. A R5 will make sure the other guy stays behind a tree. The R1 will go fetch him for you.

 

[Graugrun]

BTW I purposely did not post the Striker's brochure as it went into production...

Herewith pics of the latest R4 iteration, seems it is not too liked by the army, so perhaps it won't ever be adopted. The army believe if we are going to replace the R4, it should at least be with a new generation rifle and not a simply spruced up R4.

 

[Rickshaw]

The 7.62mm R1 short barrel, folding stock rifle in use by the anti pouching units in the Kruger National Park.

The Australian Army produced something similar for the Pacific Islander Regiment - a shortened barrel and shortened butt L1a1. However, it had a kick on it like a mule. I saw some in the late 1980s when they were being issued for use by Army Reserve females for ceremonial purposes. Beautiful pale timber was used, which made them stand out. IIRC they had 2-3 inches cut off the barrel and about 1.5 inches off the butt. I fired one, once at the range and it had a recoil which was nothing short of vicious. What was the recoil on this South African like? The other question was, why was the barrel shortened? What advantage did they see in doing so? Was it to make it handier or was there some other reasoning?

 

[Kiltonge]

IIRC they had 2-3 inches cut off the barrel and about 1.5 inches off the butt. I fired one, once at the range and it had a recoil which was nothing short of vicious. What was the recoil on this South African like?

That's quite interesting because the L1A1-F1 was claimed by Lithgow to have lower recoil! They advertised it as having 80% of the full-length rifle's recoil, making it suitable for smaller-framed soldiers.

Generally a shorter barrel with the same ammunition will have lower recoil impulse, since the bullet velocity is lower and usually some powder is burned outside the barrel.

Sadly the UK forces have an ( irrational ) institutional aversion to any form of firearms modification / improvement so I only ever encountered the full-length L1A1

The other question was, why was the barrel shortened? What advantage did they see in doing so? Was it to make it handier or was there some other reasoning?

FALs are known to cycle well down to 16" barrels, so for short-range engagements there's not much point carrying the extra 5" of barrel weight.

A super-short FAL with 11" barrel has the same muzzle energy as an AK with its full-length barrel.

The craziest FAL I've seen ( not personally! ) had an 8" barrel.