SNCASE (Sud-Est) Postwar flying boat projects

[Jemiba]

One of the French post-war projects for a large flying boat was the SE.1200. Just
the scaled down manned model, designated SE.1210 flew. Of the SE.1200 at least one
turbo-prop powered derivative was planned. Still yet, I’ve just got one drawing, but I know, that in number X of the Aviation Francais Magazine an article was published. Unfortunately when I subscribed, this issue was already sold out. Anyone, who could provide me with a
scan ?

 

[Archibald]

I live near the town of Biscarosse, which has a Flying boat museum (I visited it two times, first time in 1993 and last time in august of this year). The museum is based here because of the former Latecoere plant...
I still have the book of the visit, and they briefly mention the SE-1200. It has to weight around 300 tons or so!
These projects were the ultimate derivatives of the SE-200 (ex Liore&Olivier H-49) of which 3 examples were build and flew until 1950.
Le fana de l'aviation also mention the SE-1200 in its article on the SE-200 (1998). I have to check this magazine, there's some datas about the SE-1200 if i remember well.
cheers

 

[Archibald]

Here we are

There's some projects between the SE-200 and SE-1200

SE-104
Long-range transatlantic flying boat (9 tons of cargo+ 70 passengers)
empty weight 43 tons
MTOW 107 tons
6*2600hp engines

SE-200C (AkA SE-1100 )
SE-014 derivative with a MTOW of 120 tons. Engines were HS 24Z or Gnome&Rhone 28T (those were coupled HS 12Z and Gnome Rhone 14R ultimate french-piston engines of the 1940-1950 era)

SE-1200
Improvement of the SE-1100 with, once again, more MTOW...(not sure of the 300 tons number it seems a bit exagerated!!)

 

[Skybolt]

Any idea if these projects started during war-time in aticipation of post-war traffic surge?

 

[Jemiba]

Chillon, Dubois and Wegg say in "French Postwar Transport Aircraft", that the
SE.1200 project started "in he late forties". The data they give for the Se.1200:
span 61m, lenght 47,9m, MTOW 140.000 kg with 22.000 payload, powered by 8
3000hp Arsena l24H, turboprops were considered. The SE.1300 is said to have
been another flying boat project, a direct relation to the 1200 isn't mentioned,
the only detail given is the MTOW of 180.000 kg. And no drawings .....
Lots of projects to explore !

 

[Archibald]

Wait I minute, maybe I know what kind of turboprops were considered. From "Le fana de l'aviation" but also a Pdf on SNECMA I downloaded some weeks ago (I was searching info on the Atar-103, Atar-104 Vulcain and the like)
I think about the TA-1000 which had to develop 4000 ch.(seems logical compared to the Arsenal 24H and its 3000 hp)
According to the Pdf, SNECMA started the development in 1948 but renounced due to the high complexity of the engine.

Other candidate could be the TG1A bis from SOCEMA. It developed 2500 hp...
I can send you the Pdf if you are interested (it's in french!)

 

[Archibald]

and yes, Skybolt according to Le Fana these projects date back from 1941-1944 era.
The SE-200, Late-631 and Cams-Potez 141 flew in late 1942. They were later seized by the Germans and ferried to the Constance lake, in the extreme south of Germany. There, they were destroyed by a - still mysterious- RAF attack at the beginning of april 1944...

 

[Skybolt]

Well, more topics for my projected site on wartime civilian projects... Thanks! Uh, and I understand French fairly well ;D D'you have my e-mail?
Last question, pardon me: any idea if SNCASO joined the scene with some very-heavy transport projects post war, after their experiance working with Zeppelin?

 

[Jemiba]

".. Constance lake, in the extreme south of Germany. There, they were destroyed "
The CAMS 141 was sunk by USAF Mustangs during an attack on a seaplane base in
the Baltic, I think. There was an article in a magazine some years ago, mentioning, that
it was mistaken for long with the Bv 238, which was actually sunk in Lake Schaal in
northern Germany.

 

[Archibald]

QUOTE- Last question, pardon me: any idea if SNCASO joined the scene with some very-heavy transport projects post war, after their experiance working with Zeppelin?QUOTE

The answer to your question has a name, the Armagnac. It was a plane quite similar to the DC-6, powered by R-4360 engines. The plane was a derivate of a transatlantic project of WWII.
Air France refused it because it was not very comfortable (the number of windows was too scarce, the flour had different levels). As a consequence, the few aircafts produced were used by privates companies, flight test centers and the like until the 60's.
Some of these plane were used as engine testbed (including the
TF-306E of the Mirage IIIV, F2 and G).
Good link here (as you can read french )

http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=609&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=0&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=armagnac

According to Le Fana, there's a real mystery around the destruction of the SE-200 and Late -631 in april 1944 on the constance lake.

Et voila! I made a mistake!
There was two CAMS-potez, the 141 and 161. The 141 was amaritime patroller, the 161 was the competitor to the LAte 631 and SE-200. So the 161 was destroyed with them in the Constance lake...
Aviafrance again...
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=8074&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1058&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=

 

[Skybolt]

The answer to your question has a name, the Armagnac.

Uh, yes, I know the Armagnac! Beutiful plane, with a distinctive personality.. Same class of the Breda BZ.308.
What I had in mind was some really BIG plane (or seaplane). SE-1200 class.

 

[Jemiba]

The heavy transport seemes to be a type of aircraft, France wasn'tmuch interested in
after the war. The only type coming to my mind is the SNCAC NC.211 Cormoran and it's
pre-project, the still larger NC.210. And, of course, the Breguet projects, but these
were mainly designs from the early '40s.

 

[Archibald]

You're perfectly right, Jemiba! It's the same thing for the bombers (no 100 tons V-bombers equivalent on this side of the channel )
The heavier bomber project was the Mirage IVB (around 60 tons) and it was quickly cancelled...
To my mind, France never had the money nor the engines to make big aircrafts. The Late-631 stay the bigger 100% French aircraft...

 

[Skybolt]

The heavy transport seemes to be a type of aircraft, France wasn'tmuch interested in
after the war. The only type coming to my mind is the SNCAC NC.211 Cormoran and it's
pre-project, the still larger NC.210. And, of course, the Breguet projects, but these
were mainly designs from the early '40s.

Marvellous, and where I can find 3-views etc on these giants ? I'm waiting for Les Paquebots Volants by Lariviere, already ordered, but other sources (books, etc.)?

 

[Jemiba]

Sorry, I just can give you the Cormoran, perhaps, if you'll eventually get
those Paquebots, you think of me ?

 

[Skybolt]

Sure ! ;D

 

[hesham]

Hallo,

anther aircraft based on SE.1200 was SE.1260 flying boat.

 

[Skybolt]

:'( Archibald, did you forget me= ??? ;D
BTW, I'll have Aviation Francaise numero trois in a couple of days, I'll scan the article...

 

[Antonio]

Skybolt,

will you sent your comments about Les Paquebots Volants?, This month's Le Fana comes with an advert and it looks a superb work but I would know if some unbuilt projects are included before ordering.

 

[Skybolt]

Sure, as soon as I receive it ! Editions Lariviere advertised it with an October issue date, but knowning Lariviere... (not as bad as .... you know)

 

[Skybolt]

Saw "Les Paquebots"... my friend Giorgio Apostolo received it ahead of commercialisation for review. Very beautiful. No unbuilt projects, as far as I saw, but great documentation of Potez, Latè, etc. and minor types.

 

[Skybolt]

Now I own all the AFM collection... Expect number 3

 

[Jemiba]

About british flying boat projects, you should have a look here :
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1220.0.html

And then here's a french project, I'll be looking for information, too,
the SNCASE SE.1200. There was an article about it in Aviation Francais Magazine
N° 3 or 4. My subscrition started to late and htis number was sold out .. :'(
So I#ve just this drawing :

 

[Sandi]

Thanks Jemiba for SNCASE SE.1200.

 

[Skybolt]

Tha AFM issue 3 on the SE.1200 hasn't a REAL 3-view. Photos of the model and a very schematic internal arrangement. I think something more is on display at Biscarosse....

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Skybolt, I don't know if you know already, but for the large "hexamoteurs" French flying boats, I can recommend........

S.N.C.A.S.E SE.200 (formerly the Lioré & Olivier H-49 Amphitrite).

Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 345; August 1998. Pages 10 to 17.
Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 346; September 1998. Pages 40 to 51.
Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 347; October 1998. Pages 36 to 41
Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 348; November 1998. Pages 20 to 31.

A four-part article by Gérard Bousquet; the final part is superbly illustrated with line drawings by Joël Mesnard. Interestingly the design of the tail-fins was modified five times with typical Lioré & Olivier elliptical style. There are also considerable differences between the wartime-completed prototype and the post-war production aircraft in regard to engines, cabin window arrangements and wing-root fairings. The final part of the article also show photographs of a planned retractable skid-type outboard float and a development with an inflatable and retractable "ballonnet" outboard float. This flying boat is on my list of impossibly beautiful French Airliner modelmaking subjects.

Potez-C.A.M.S 161.

Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 232; March 1989. Pages 32 to 37.
Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 233; April 1989. Pages 26 to 32.
Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 234; Mai 1989. Pages 22 to 27.

The smallest of the three "Hexamoteurs", the braced-wing Potez from Sartrouville and its scale flying model, the Potez-C.A.M.S 160 are covered in these three articles by Gérard Bousquet with illustrations by Jean Molveau. Interestingly, this single prototype was obviously converted to a maritime reconaissance/bomber configuration with Potez-C.A.M.S 141 Antares style lateral turretsand then de-converted before it's first flight. Again this flying boat is on my list of models to be made, but is not so well illustrated as the S.N.C.A.S.E SE.200 or the Latécoère 631.

"Fana" also covered the earlier Potez-C.A.M.S 141 Antares Aeronavale flying boat; are you interested in details at all?

All best wishes,

Terry, (Caravellarella).

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the SNCASE SE.4030 was high wing amphibian aircraft project,powered
by two Armstrong siddeley Cheetah or P&W engines.

http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1951/1951%20-%201233.html

 

[Jemiba]

Special thanks for that, Hesham !
Seems to be a larger version of the SE.4000 amphibian
(from Les Ailes via richard)

 

[Apophenia]

An old topic, I know ...

Jens mentioned the mistaken "Bv-238" identity. That aircraft was originally claimed by USAAF 1Lt Urban Drew as a "BV 222 destroyed on the waters of Schaal See". Only after the war did "Ben" Drew change his claim to the Bv-238 prototype.

The problem was, the Bv-238 V1 was at the Bug seaplane base (on Rügen in the Baltic) at the time of the P-51 attack. The Bv-238 was also fitted with new, reversible-pitch propellers some 3 months after it was claimed destroyed.

According to CAHS Journal (Summer 2008. p.73), the aircraft in question was the Potez-CAMS 161 prototype. The 4-engined Potez-CAMS 141 flew with E4 out of Dakar and was scrapped in 1944.

http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/potez.pdf
"Au début de l'année 1944, ne disposant plus de pièces détachées de rechange, l'appareil est réformé, après 1.800 heures de vol, au grand regret de son équipage, après avoir fait la preuve de ses qualités et de celles de l’appareil, malheureusement resté unique, mais dont la solidité est restée légendaire dans l’aéronautique navale française."

For the record, the Bv-238 was destroyed on 24 April 1945 by repeated stafing by Typhoons of 439 Sqn RCAF led by F/L Vic LeGear. The aircraft sank at its moorings. After the war, the remains were "dismantled" with explosives by RAF teams and hauled away for scrap.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

the SNCASE SE.4000.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1949/1949%20-%200848.html

 

[flying-finn]

Dear Caravellarella, as i understand, you have an issue of the Le Fana de l'Aviation, No. 348; November 1998. Can you share here drawings of the beautiful SE-200 flying boat?

 

[airman]

i like flying boats !
Those fying boats of Sud-Est was nice, but was clear that flying boats had lost more importance after WWII.

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Flyingfinn, do you want me to scan the drawings and post them here? In their entirety? They are spread over 4 consecutive issues of Fana de l'Aviation; moderators, is this allowed?

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Flyingfinn, the SNCASE SE-200 flying-boat is actually a pre-war design; formerly the Lioré & Olivier LéO H-49 Amphtrite. Perhaps I should put the pictures there instead......

Terry (Caravellarella)

 

[flying-finn]

Dear Terry (Caravellarella), i'll be waiting for your pictures in that branch of forum with impatience!
Thank you for your understanding!

 

[hesham]

Here we are




SE-014 derivative with a MTOW of 120 tons. Engines were HS 24Z or Gnome&Rhone 28T (those were coupled HS 12Z and Gnome Rhone 14R ultimate french-piston engines of the 1940-1950 era)

My dear Archibald,

do you mean by SE-014 as SE-214?,that is because there was no series for SNCASE include
014 number !.

 

[Apophenia]

Going waaay back to the S.E.1200, a sideview that appeared in Flight seems to show the turboprop version. In this version of the flying boat, the four tandem Arsenal 24Hs (boosted by R-R Nenes) were to be replaced with four AS Python turboprops. Flight 26 Feb 1948

 

[Jemiba]

A good find, this side view. But I cannot see, why it's turbo prop powered, the nacelles
look as those of the piston engined version to me. And would such an important change
have not resulted in another designation, eg. SE.1201 ?

 

[Apophenia]

Yes, the nacelles are rather generic-looking as depicted. I mentioned the Pythons because Flight's commentary suggested that the tandem Arsenal 24Hs had already been eclipsed by this time. Still, tough to tell a notional turboprop installation from well-faired liquid-cooled engines with turbojet boosters in such drawings

 

[Caravellarella]

Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French about the SNCASE Sud-Est SE.1200 eight-engined flying boat "project" and announcing flight-tests of the scaled-down test-bed the SE.1210 which isn't a "project".

The 125 seater SNCASE Sud-Est SE.2010 "project" was comparable to the Saunders Roe Princess flying boat and would have been powered by eight Arsenal 24H 3,000hp liquid-cooled engines in tandem pairs driving contra-rotating propellors. It featured a laminar flow wing and provision was made in the design for a change to Armstrong Siddeley Python turboprop engines. Luckily for SNCASE, it remained a "project"......

It should be pointed out that by this time Air France was operating regular transatlantic services with Lockheed L049 Constellations......

The article comes from the 24th July 1948 issue of Les Ailes......

Terry (Caravellarella)