Shenyang / Chengdu 6th Gen Demonstrators?

The strange thing is that they removed the vertical tails.... but then doubled the number of conventional control surfaces on the wing. From an RF observables standpoint that does not make much sense.

It does though. The vertical stabiliser would be in another orientation than the wing (for instance). Flatness has its uses. They've also likely optimised the horizontal control surfaces so that they all produce a similar peak which can be managed.
 
I thought it's obvious that you can't directly compare wingspans of aircrafts flying tens meters apart at least in longitudinal direction.
Without knowing the exact focal length and the exact distance to the object, it is almost impossible to get an accurate result. Therefore, we have to be content with relatively inaccurate estimates and educated guesses.
 
Cannot some of the control surfaces be locked in less demanding flight regimes? I thought B-2 did this.

Sure the B-2 does this but it is not supersonic or a delta wing.

This thing has only these many wing control surfaces to keep it flying straight and level, which is going to problematic at transonic and supersonic speeds.
 
Without knowing the exact focal length and the exact distance to the object, it is almost impossible to get an accurate result. Therefore, we have to be content with relatively inaccurate estimates and educated guesses.
But why we have to? It's clear that wingspan will be less than 22 meters. More, you can at least try to built aircraft fuselages CL axis, find a converge point and measure 'J-36' wingspan assuming aircrafts flying at the same altitude.
 
One again, it's not because it is shaped like a wedge that it is fast. F-117 has exactly the same characteristics and isn't a fast aircraft.

Now, I would like to emphasize how the 36 is also a low altitude penetrator. Same as the 20.
Here we can see a gust alleviating flap identical to the B-2. Moreover, the wedged nose only make sense with a horizontal aspect ratio regarding to inbound radar.

The petal flaps are also less concerning in that flight domain where air density is high (less deflection).
 
A classified Lockheed Martin "something" (as you say) doesn't say anything about whether LM is building NGAD (prototypes / demonstrators / whatever). LM Aeronautics does more than just building aircraft.
Ok explain, what else if it is not aircraft related ?
 
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Just for historical interest and comparison, a Boeing concept from the 80s. Does anybody know anything about it?

View attachment 754952
It's from AW&ST June 16, 1980. Not long afterwards (possibly in reaction), the security wallahs issued a death fatwa against industry releasing anything that looked remotely like this. The level of secrecy was such that Boeing's advanced design group and PR folks put this on the street even though they were already working with Northrop on ASPA/ATB and the final RFP was released in September.
 
Sure the B-2 does this but it is not supersonic or a delta wing.

This thing has only these many wing control surfaces to keep it flying straight and level, which is going to problematic at transonic and supersonic speeds.
The B-2 just limits deflections, no locking of surfaces.
 
I wouldn‘t rate thsi as a proof, but indeed a hint and so maybe that strange delta-shaped „something“ we saw at CAC is this 36001 demonstrator? But that does not necessarily means there must be more than one.
Agreed. The numbering system used on J-20 doesn't have to be the same.
 
Translation of Patent

21) Application number 202210846733.1
(22) Application date 2022.07.05
(71) Applicant Shenyang Aircraft Design Institute, Aviation Industry Corporation of China
Address No. 40, Tawan Street, Huanggu District, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province, 110035
(72) Inventor Wu Lantu, Liu Xiaodong, Zhan Guang, Yan Panpan, Zhang Lai, Xiao Ling, Liu Fangliang
(74) Patent agency Beijing Hangxin Hi-Tech Intellectual Property Agency (General Partnership) 11526
Patent agent Guo Pengpeng

The present application belongs to the technical field of aircraft structure design, and specifically relates to an aircraft nose, which is tapered and slender as a whole, and the nose cross section gradually changes from rounded to flat from front to back. The nose has a large sweep angle, and the upper surface of the nose is partially convex. It is a single-sweep angle leading edge narrow and long nose, which can ensure that there is a large space inside the aircraft nose while taking into account the aircraft's undetectability and aerodynamic performance such as agile maneuvering, high altitude and high speed, and lateral heading stability.

1. An aircraft nose, characterized in that it includes:
The nose is tapered and slender as a whole;
The nose section changes from rounded to flat from front to back;
The nose has a large sweep angle;
The upper surface of the nose is partially convex.
2. The aircraft nose according to claim 1, characterized in that
The nose slenderness ratio is 0.25 to 0.3.
3. The aircraft nose according to claim 1, characterized in that
The nose section changes from rounded to flat from front to back, forming protruding sharp corners on both sides.
4. The aircraft nose according to claim 1, characterized in that
The sweep angle of the nose is 70. ~ 75. .
5. The aircraft nose according to claim 1, characterized in that
The height of the local convexity on the upper surface of the nose does not exceed one-fourth of the height of the section.
6. The aircraft nose according to claim 1, characterized in that
The length of the local convexity on the upper surface of the nose accounts for 0.5 to 0.6 of the overall length of the nose.
7. The aircraft nose according to claim 1 is characterized in that the starting position of the front end of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose is located at 0.25 to 0.3 of the overall length of the nose.

An aircraft nose
Technical field
〔0001〕 This application belongs to the technical field of aircraft structure design, and specifically relates to an aircraft nose.
Background technology
〔0002〕 Conventional aircraft noses mostly adopt a full round nose with a circular cross-section and a large internal space, which can provide sufficient space for the installation of radar, avionics equipment, and communication antennas, thereby reducing the space occupied in the aircraft fuselage, allowing the aircraft fuselage to carry more fuel and expand the aircraft's range. However, this type of aircraft nose design cannot take into account the aircraft's undetectability and aerodynamic performance such as agile maneuverability, high altitude and high speed, and lateral and heading stability.
100031 In view of the existence of the above-mentioned technical defects, this application is proposed.
10004] It should be noted that the disclosure of the above background technology content is only used to assist in understanding the inventive concept and technical solution of the present invention, and it does not necessarily belong to the prior art of the present patent application. In the absence of clear evidence that the above content has been disclosed on the filing date of the present application, the above background technology should not be used to evaluate the novelty and creativity of the present application.
Invention content
〔0005〕 The purpose of the present application is to provide an aircraft nose to overcome or alleviate at least one aspect of the known technical defects.
〔0006〕 The technical solution of the present application is:
100071 An aircraft nose, comprising:
100081 The nose is tapered and slender as a whole;
〔0009〕 The cross section of the nose gradually changes from rounded to flat from front to back;
〔0010〕 The nose has a large sweep angle;
100111 The upper surface of the nose is partially convex.
100121 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose slenderness ratio is 0.25 to 0.3.
〔0013〕 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose cross section changes from rounded to flat from front to back, forming protruding sharp corners on both sides.
〔0014〕 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose sweep angle is 70. ~ 75. .
〔0015〕 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the height of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose does not exceed one-fourth of the height of the cross section.
〔0016〕 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the length of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose accounts for 0.5~0.6 of the overall length of the nose.
〔0017〕 According to at least one embodiment of the present application, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the starting position of the front end of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose is located at 0.25~0.3 of the overall length of the nose. 100181 This application has at least the following beneficial technical effects:
〔0019〕 Provide an aircraft nose, the nose is designed to be tapered and slender as a whole, the nose cross section gradually changes from round to flat from front to back, the nose has a large sweep angle, and the upper surface of the nose is partially convex, which is a single-sweep angle leading edge narrow and long nose, which can ensure that the aircraft has a large space inside the nose, while taking into account the aircraft's undetectability and agile maneuverability, high altitude high speed, lateral heading stability and other aerodynamic performance.

Drawings

1736118184960.png
〔0020〕 Figure 1 is a schematic diagram of the side of the aircraft nose and its various cross-sections provided in the embodiment of the present application;
100211 Figure 2 is a top view of the aircraft nose provided in the embodiment of the present application.
〔0022〕 In order to better illustrate this embodiment, some parts of the drawings may be omitted, enlarged or reduced, and do not represent the size of the actual product. In addition, the drawings are only used for exemplary description and cannot be understood as limiting this patent.
Specific implementation methods
〔0023〕 In order to make the technical solution and its advantages of this application clearer, the technical solution of this application will be further described in detail in detail and in combination with the drawings. It can be understood that the specific embodiments described here are only partial embodiments of this application, which are only used to explain this application, not to limit this application. It should be noted that, for the convenience of description, only the parts related to this application are shown in the drawings, and other related parts can refer to the general design. In the absence of conflict, the embodiments in this application and the technical features in the embodiments can be combined with each other to obtain new embodiments.
10024〕 In addition, unless otherwise defined, the technical terms or scientific terms used in the description of this application should be the common meanings understood by ordinary technicians in the field to which this application belongs. The words "upper", "lower", "left", "right", "center", "vertical", "horizontal", "inside", "outside" and other words indicating orientation used in the description of this application are only used to indicate relative directions or positional relationships, and do not imply that the device or element must have a specific orientation, be constructed and operated in a specific orientation. When the absolute position of the described object changes, its relative positional relationship may also change accordingly, so it cannot be understood as a limitation on this application. The "first", "second", "third" and similar terms used in the description of this application are only used for descriptive purposes to distinguish different components, and cannot be understood as indicating or implying relative importance. The words "one", "one" or "the" and similar words used in the description of this application should not be understood as an absolute limitation on quantity, but should be understood as the existence of at least one. The words "including", "comprising", "including", "comprising" and similar words used in the description of this application mean that the elements or objects appearing before the word include the elements or objects listed after the word and their equivalents, but do not exclude other elements or objects. 10025] In addition, it should be noted that, unless otherwise clearly specified and limited, the words "install", "connect", "connect" and similar words used in the description of this application should be understood in a broad sense. For example, the connection can be a fixed connection, a detachable connection, or an integral connection; it can be a mechanical connection or an electrical connection; it can be a direct connection, an indirect connection through an intermediate medium, or a connection between two components. The technical personnel in the field can understand the specific meaning of it in this application according to the specific situation.
〔0026〕 The present application is further described in detail below in conjunction with Figures 1 to 2.
〔0027〕 An aircraft nose, including:
〔0028〕 The horizontal plane projection of the nose is conical and slender;
〔0029〕 The cross section of the nose gradually changes from round to flat from front to back;
〔0030〕 The nose has a large sweep angle;
〔0031〕 The upper surface of the nose is partially convex.
〔0032〕 For the aircraft nose disclosed in the above embodiment, it can be understood by those skilled in the art that the nose is designed to be conical and slender as a whole, and the nose cross section gradually changes from round to flat from front to back, that is, a single-sweep-angle leading edge narrow and long nose, which can reduce the radar wave scattering angle and meet the aircraft's undetectability requirements. At the same time, it can generate strong edge strips when the aircraft has a large angle of attack, delaying the asymmetric rupture of the nose vortices on both sides, thereby ensuring the aircraft's lateral heading stability. In addition, the narrow and long nose can increase the aircraft's aspect ratio as a whole, reduce supersonic drag, and thus ensure the aircraft's high-altitude and high-speed performance.
〔0033〕 For the aircraft nose disclosed in the above embodiment, it can be understood by those skilled in the art that the nose is designed to have a large sweep angle, which can further ensure the aircraft's undetectability requirements, and can improve the aircraft's high angle of attack characteristics and ensure the aircraft's lateral heading stability. [0034] For the aircraft nose disclosed in the above embodiment, the technicians in the field can also understand that the design of the nose with a local convex upper surface can, on the one hand, increase the internal space of the aircraft nose, provide sufficient space for the installation of radar, avionics equipment, and communication antennas, reduce the space occupied in the aircraft fuselage, and enable the aircraft fuselage to carry more fuel, thereby expanding the aircraft's range. On the other hand, it can increase the relative thickness of the aircraft as a whole, change the overall curvature distribution of the aircraft, make the cross-sectional area distribution from the aircraft nose to the fuselage more gentle, improve the pressure distribution on the upper surface of the aircraft nose, reduce the zero lift moment of the aircraft, reduce the aircraft's trim drag loss, ensure the aircraft's agile maneuverability, and reduce the aircraft's transonic drag to ensure the aircraft's high-altitude and high-speed performance.
100351 In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose slenderness ratio is. .25~ . .3.
〔0036〕 In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose section gradually changes from rounded to flat from front to back, forming protruding sharp corners on both sides, and the two sides are straight edges, so that the overall outline of the aircraft can meet the parallel principle, ensure the undetectability requirements of the aircraft, and make the front end of the aircraft nose tilt downward, which can reduce the zero lift moment of the aircraft and ensure the agile maneuverability of the aircraft.
〔0037〕 In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the nose sweep angle is 70. ~ 75., which should not be too large to ensure the space in the aircraft nose.
〔0038〕 In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the height of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose does not exceed one-fourth of the height of the cross section, and should not be too high to avoid generating large resistance and affecting the high-altitude and high-speed performance of the aircraft. [0039] In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the length of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose accounts for 0.5 to 0.6 of the overall length of the nose, and should not be too large to avoid generating large resistance and affecting the high-altitude and high-speed performance of the aircraft.
[0040] In some optional embodiments, in the above-mentioned aircraft nose, the starting position of the front end of the local protrusion on the upper surface of the nose is located at 0.25 to 0.3 of the overall length of the nose to ensure the agile maneuverability of the aircraft.
10041] The various embodiments in the specification are described in a progressive manner, and each embodiment focuses on the differences from other embodiments. The same and similar parts between the various embodiments can be referred to each other. 10042] So far, the technical solutions of the present application have been described in combination with the preferred implementations shown in the accompanying drawings. It should be understood by those skilled in the art that the protection scope of the present application is obviously not limited to these specific implementations. Without departing from the principles of the present application, those skilled in the art can make equivalent changes or substitutions to the relevant technical features, and the technical solutions after these changes or substitutions will fall within the protection scope of the present application.
 
I wonder if the PRC released these photographs of the J-36 to pressure the US into releasing some PR photographs of the NGAD?
 
It's from AW&ST June 16, 1980. Not long afterwards (possibly in reaction), the security wallahs issued a death fatwa against industry releasing anything that looked remotely like this. The level of secrecy was such that Boeing's advanced design group and PR folks put this on the street even though they were already working with Northrop on ASPA/ATB and the final RFP was released in September.
Thanks!
 
It's from AW&ST June 16, 1980. Not long afterwards (possibly in reaction), the security wallahs issued a death fatwa against industry releasing anything that looked remotely like this. The level of secrecy was such that Boeing's advanced design group and PR folks put this on the street even though they were already working with Northrop on ASPA/ATB and the final RFP was released in September.
Not to be forgotten
 
So to sum up J-36, it’s a:

- long range, high flying VLO aircraft
- with long range senzors/EW capabilities
- and can carry long range weapons (air to air, air to ground/surface)
And is likely trading more stealth for less maneuverability, but yes that's how I'm reading it as well.


The strange thing is that they removed the vertical tails.... but then doubled the number of conventional control surfaces on the wing. From an RF observables standpoint that does not make much sense.
Is that because the smaller surfaces become more detectable due to their size as compared to radar wavelengths?

(Man, stealth stuff is very non-intuitive to me...)



This isn't sexting on Snapchat.
As if national bragging operates any differently.
 
Well the change comes with the new administration. Chinese military are adapting by also moving on the chessboard of public opinion.

The vast majority of the U.S. public has no understanding or concern over foreign policy in general or China in particular. They may feel China is antagonistic, depending on their media sources, while at the same time not being able to find it on a map. Any air power trends by either side is meaningless to >90% of the population, probably closer to 95+.

Any messaging is between politicians.
 
For stealth, although no one can comment on the exact RCS but in my opinion, it is pretty safe to say it should at least have better all aspect stealth than any 5th gen flying today just by virtue of not having a vertical stabilizer.
Nope, nopety nope.

Lets say the F-22 has excellent all aspect stealth. The Su-57 doesn't. Chop the tails off the Su-57. Voila! Is its all aspect stealth now better that it was? Probably.

Is the Su-57 all aspect stealth now better than an F-22? Nope, it still has a problematic rear engine installation among very many other issues.
 
Looking at this cutout from an airshow couple of years back, the third engine, the centreline looks like a gas generator - so likely used more for electricity generation than thrust?
Any ideas?

CAC-J-36-Cutout.png
 
Nope, nopety nope.

Lets say the F-22 has excellent all aspect stealth. The Su-57 doesn't. Chop the tails off the Su-57. Voila! Is its all aspect stealth now better that it was? Probably.

Is the Su-57 all aspect stealth now better than an F-22? Nope, it still has a problematic rear engine installation among very many other issues.
From what I can tell is that them going tailless would mean they are focusing more on all aspect and wide band stealth coupled with the fact that a paper from CAC's chief engineer detailing his vision of next generation air combat put quite a lot of emphasis on all aspect stealth and penetrating capabilities, how good exactly no one can tell as of right now.
 
To me the CAC 6th gen would be most comparable to the USAF's vision for NGAD before Kendall's restructuring. Extreme individual capability versus getting the whole networked gang.

Wide band stealth (especially against long wavelength) is more dependent of size. The CAC 6th gen does appear to be a beast.
 
I wouldn‘t rate thsi as a proof, but indeed a hint and so maybe that strange delta-shaped „something“ we saw at CAC is this 36001 demonstrator? But that does not necessarily means there must be more than one.

That reminds me of your post in the very first page of this thread.
Post in thread 'Shenyang / Chengdu 6th Gen Demonstrators?' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/shenyang-chengdu-6th-gen-demonstrators.40872/post-576178
And those pictures:
Could it be the hypothetical "36001" demonstrator? Or an earlier design? Note the staggered central exhaust.
 

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That reminds me of your post in the very first page of this thread.
Post in thread 'Shenyang / Chengdu 6th Gen Demonstrators?' https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/shenyang-chengdu-6th-gen-demonstrators.40872/post-576178
And those pictures:
Could it be the hypothetical "36001" demonstrator? Or an earlier design? Note the staggered central exhaust.
This does not seem to resemble the J-36 we saw much(seems to have a clipped ogival delta instead of a cranked one and seems to have only 2 exposed engine unlike the 3 entrenched ones we saw on the J-36). I think the plane that resembles the one in the pics that also was spotted parked on the tarmac at CAC in 2021 could be a generic testbed not unlike the unbuilt X-44 MANTA demonstrator to test tailless controllability and thrust vectoring at supersonic speeds but not a true technology demonstrator built specifically for the J-36. Potentially, it is possible the true "36001" technology demonstrator and what came after were shipped to be assembled far north in the remote regions to be tested secretly. Then they had the 36011 built and tested at the CAC facility in Chengdu as an "unofficial" reveal, from what I heard from some PLA watchers was that on the 26th there were viewing stands setup inside the airfield most likely for PLA top brasses and government officials, so it could be an internal demonstration of the new aircraft which makes sense since you probably wouldn't wanna show off a half finished technology demonstrator to those people and instead show them a more complete prototype instead.
 
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