Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine - Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy

[Andrewjs2007]

Anyone know anything about this forthcoming title?

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine
Unseen Designs of Nazi Germany's Navy​

By Nico Sgarlato and Allessio Sgarlato

Andrew

 

[edwest4]

Secret Projects of the Kriegsmarine

The U.S. Naval Institute provides an independent forum for those who seek to advance and strengthen the naval profession.

www.usni.org

 

[Orionblamblam]

I've received my copy. Smaller than expected. Some good diagrams, but a lot of the better ones are split across two pages, with chunks necessarily buried in the middle; a lot of meh-resolution smaller diagrams. I haven't read it yet, just flipped through it, but... shrug.

 

[edwest4]

Ah. A ringing endorsement. I'll be ordering mine soon.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Some examples. Not how I would have preferred the book been laid out...



I'm pretty sure that by breaking the spine the book can be opened far enough that the images could probably be flat-scanned and stitched together, but still... ehhhhhhh.

 

[Avimimus]

Ouch. Yes, I see your point.

 

[airman]

In Italy we must wait 30 march 2022 .

 

[airman]

Some examples. Not how I would have preferred the book been laid out...

View attachment 674608View attachment 674609View attachment 674610

I'm pretty sure that by breaking the spine the book can be opened far enough that the images could probably be flat-scanned and stitched together, but still... ehhhhhhh.

I have understood the point: there are problems of layout !

 

[Foo Fighter]

I received a small drivers manual for the Porsche 356C this week, the larger diagrams are on fold out pages. Quite simple to do and I always wonder why not when decent images are let down like that. Split across a book fold? Shirley we have got past that being necessary by now.....

 

[Orionblamblam]

I always wonder why not when decent images are let down like that.

Also: I've compared it to my copies of Rossler's "The U-boat" and Fock's "Fast Fighting Boats" and a lot of the diagrams are simple copies of the ones in those books. And the simple diagrams of projected capital ships... well, a lot of them seem to be internet diagrams (shipbucket?). Hmmm.



There is some new stuff (new to me at any rate), but on the whole, not sure I can recommend it at it's full price of more than sixty bucks. Compare the size of the book with "U-Boat" and the New Industry Standard In Quality Publications. It's a lot smaller for a fair amount more, which i don;t really understand.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Shoulda done a Google Image Search... that Panzerschiffe P diagram looks a *lot* like a mirrored version of this one, from a World of Warships forum...

 

[acelanceloet]

Ashley used to be active on shipbucket.com, mosty drawing alternate universe Kriegsmarine ships...... which makes all this even worse.
Are there many images in that book in the same (shipbucket) artstyle?

 

[Orionblamblam]

Ashley used to be active on shipbucket.com, mosty drawing alternate universe Kriegsmarine ships...... which makes all this even worse.
Are there many images in that book in the same (shipbucket) artstyle?

Basically the whole "battleship" chapter seems to use that style, though smaller/lower rez. Diagrams include:
H-40A, H-40B. H-41, H-42, H-43, Schlachtkreuzer O, Panzerschiffe P. There are several aircraft carriers illustrated, also low rez, but with a different style including top and side views.

 

[publiusr]

Some examples. Not how I would have preferred the book been laid out...

View attachment 674608View attachment 674609View attachment 674610

I'm pretty sure that by breaking the spine the book can be opened far enough that the images could probably be flat-scanned and stitched together, but still... ehhhhhhh.

You have the 'treknical manual' known as "Ships Of The Star Fleet?" That is the lay-out this needed.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The diagram for the H-40A battleship looks to be the diagrams from here:
https://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/zplan/battleships/schlachtschiffh/h40a.html

I imagine the rest have the same provenance.

So on the whole...

 

[Hood]

If an author can't find decent plans of German warship projects or commission decent line drawings and has to resort to decade-old Shipbucket drawings (which are not designed for printing as the resolution is crap) then they should give it up as a bad job.

And by removing the artist's credits they have also broken Shipbucket's copyright rules as well, which I will be bringing to the attention of Shipbucket's management.

 

[gollevainen]

yes this is violation of the creative common license of Shipbucket artwork. its not intended as illustration to be used in publications but a open hobby to all artist to "mess" around with in their own non-profit intentions and respecting the credits. We will discuss in Shipbucket how to procede from this. Thank you for bringing this to our attention

 

[Antonio]

I think this is a better option for the same subject, but we still lack any clue about how it looks on the inside.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/plan-z-le-fantasme-naval-allemand-from-pascal-colombier-by-caraktère.36202/

 

[Orionblamblam]

Forum rules argue against posting decent-rez scans/photos from books, but perhaps in this case it might be valid for the purposes of comparing them against online images? Because if a book simply uses a diagram that they scraped off the internet, then the book doesn't really have anything copyrightable there, correct?

If that's agreeable, I'll post the other apparently "shipbucket" images.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Some pictures to illustrate your point are fine and within the realm of fair use Scott.

 

[Orionblamblam]

OK. There are a number of side views that to my eye look very much "shipbuckety." For starters, the H-40A and H-40B.


The book illustration looks like this online image and this online image which seem to date to 2003:

If the diagrams fromthe book look kinda cruddy, in that case it's the fault of neither the camera nor the photographer: the images are small and blurry.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Then there are the H-41, H-42 and H-43. These seem to be taken from HERE, HERE and HERE.

 

[Orionblamblam]

The Schlachtkreuzer O seem to be taken from HERE:

Note that the "jaggies from a low-rez image being blown up are on full display (see the slightly sloping deck above the bow and the tops of the smokestacks).

 

[Orionblamblam]

There are a series of diagrams of aircraft carriers, done in a different style (not shipbucket, to my knowledge). They still seem to have been taken from internet images, or at least images found on the internet, with some modifications. I don't know if these diagrams originated with some "original" source, or if they were professional reconstructions, fan art or what. Here is one, the "Europa" aircraft carrier conversion taken from a World of Warships forum... the only source I seem to be able to find them online. I can't say as definitively that these images were simply copied from the World of Warships-posted images, since there are some differences, but the forum-images and the book-images sure seem to have common ancestry. Perhaps they both came from one of the books referenced in the bibliography.

There was some editing of the side view. Note the "jaggies" visible in angled lines, indicating a low-rez original.

 

[airman]

Oh Nope !

 

[Orionblamblam]

On further reflection, my disappointment grows. I was sold on buying the book mostly on the cover art, which is nice... but the interior... ehhhhhhhhhhh.

One design that was new to me and which has a *fair* diagram is the Schertel-Sachsenberg VS-5 submersible hydrofoil shown both in the cover art and in diagram form in my first post. But after coming across the shipbuckets, I now begin to doubt this design as well. Does anyone know of prior references to it?

 

[ssaa8836]

From the photos, I have to say its content is somewhat disappointing……
And I also would like to say , unlike the area of Heer/Waffen-XX and Luftwaffe research, where German docs are extensively used, in the area of Kriegsmarine history, many authors today seem to have lost the ablitiy to digging the “gold mine” of the German military archives. Instead, they simply rely on books published decades ago.
This is especially evident after the retirement of older-generation authors (eg Siegfried Breyer, Eberhard Rössler).

 

[Antonio]

BTW,

what's that thing?

 

[Orionblamblam]

BTW,

what's that thing?

That's the Englemann VS-5, actually built and tested in 1941 (at least as a test vehicle, not an operational torpedoboat). It was semi-submersible, about to the depth you see illustrated here.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Oddly, the other design shown on the cover of the book is *also* the VS-5, but instead the Schertel-Sachsenberg VS-5 submersible hydrofoil. a full-on submarine with foils. Unbuilt.

The cover art is hands-down the best part of the book.

 

[Harry64]

....
Does anyone know of prior references to it?

There is a book in german "Tragflügelboote des Schertel-Sachsenberg-Systems: Eine deutsche Entwicklung" from 2007, authors: Hinsch, Werner, Sachsenberg, Klaus J.
It is difficult to obtain or at very high prices.

 

[Orionblamblam]

....
Does anyone know of prior references to it?

There is a book in german "Tragflügelboote des Schertel-Sachsenberg-Systems: Eine deutsche Entwicklung" from 2007, authors: Hinsch, Werner, Sachsenberg, Klaus J.
It is difficult to obtain or at very high prices.

Thank! Neither abebooks nor ebay seem to have one... but they exist in libraries. Off to the interlibrary loan system!

 

[pathology_doc]

....
Does anyone know of prior references to it?

There is a book in german "Tragflügelboote des Schertel-Sachsenberg-Systems: Eine deutsche Entwicklung" from 2007, authors: Hinsch, Werner, Sachsenberg, Klaus J.
It is difficult to obtain or at very high prices.

As with all such things, no doubt someone here walked past it at a jumble sale or in a second-hand bookstore many years ago when it could be had for a few dollars' equivalent, and passed it over as uninteresting. But now, trying to own it will violate your wallet till it begs for mercy.

This is the way.

 

[Temistocle]

I am a happy owner of that book, bought many years ago at a good price, here the cover and the index.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I am a happy owner of that book, bought many years ago at a good price, here the cover and the index.

View attachment 674814

Does it have good diagrams?

 

[Temistocle]

It has some good diagrams, but maybe not so much as you desire... the best parts of the book are the detailed description of the projects an the huge amount pf pictures of the prototypes. Some examples of diagrams:

 

[Orionblamblam]

. Some examples of diagrams:

Thanks! I've been unable to locate a copy for purchase, but I've requested it through my library. With luck that'll work. Seems like a good book. I imagine that's where some of the diagrams in "Kriegsmarine" came from.

 

[airman]

It has some good diagrams, but maybe not so much as you desire... the best parts of the book are the detailed description of the projects an the huge amount pf pictures of the prototypes. Some examples of diagrams:

I know it by "Erminio Bagnasco - Le Motosiluranti della Seconda Guerra Mondiale - Albertelli Editore 1977"

 

[gatoraptor]

Remember, there is an Osprey "New Vanguard" book on the way about German (and Italian) Aircraft Carriers of WW II.

 

[Temistocle]

It has some good diagrams, but maybe not so much as you desire... the best parts of the book are the detailed description of the projects an the huge amount pf pictures of the prototypes. Some examples of diagrams:

I know it by "Erminio Bagnasco - Le Motosiluranti della Seconda Guerra Mondiale - Albertelli Editore 1977

I have it, too...